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Old 11 July 2019, 10:03 AM   #1
THC
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Sensitive subject.. (divorce?)

When couples are later in years and they argue every day, about everything, every day, when does one call time of death on a marriage?
Neither one of us are bad people, we both love each other’s kids. Fidelity is not an issue. She has grandkids that I adore, and she is great with my adult children. We both make a comfortable living and we got married 12 years ago, but have no kids together, biologically.

Counseling has been tried, please know, not looking for any wanderlust or mid life crisis, but just want a simple easy life with zero drama.

Cannot hurt to get advice from total strangers, right?

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Old 11 July 2019, 10:13 AM   #2
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Wow very honest and open. Its a shame when relationships get to that point. Top marks for trying counselling, maybe it is just time to call it a day.

I would rather be friends with somebody, then leave a relationship at the point of hating each other. The fallout with kids/grandkids, biological or not can be bad in divorces/separations.

Although continuing toxic relationships witnessed by the above are just as bad.

Can you change what yous argue about all the time? Is there something that can be changed to save your relationship?

Best of luck mate
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Old 11 July 2019, 10:26 AM   #3
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Are you fed up with the constant rowing over minuscule matters?
You’ve done counselling, so she’s aware of how you feel and knows there is a problem, but refuses to accept it needs resolving?
Has she checked with her MD if it’s just a hormonal thing that HRT could be prescribed or tweaked (if she can take or is already on it)?
Does she see the rows as a problem or simply a part of being older and less compromising?
Have you told her it’s getting to you and you’ve been thinking that maybe it's time to call it quits?
Would you prefer to be on your own, doing your own thing, or is the companionship something that’s keeping you from going solo?
Can you go somewhere for a short while (without raising any suspicion), and then see if things change upon returning or is exactly the same as it is now?
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Old 11 July 2019, 10:20 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ S View Post
Are you fed up with the constant rowing over minuscule matters?
You’ve done counselling, so she’s aware of how you feel and knows there is a problem, but refuses to accept it needs resolving?
Has she checked with her MD if it’s just a hormonal thing that HRT could be prescribed or tweaked (if she can take or is already on it)?
Does she see the rows as a problem or simply a part of being older and less compromising?
Have you told her it’s getting to you and you’ve been thinking that maybe it's time to call it quits?
Would you prefer to be on your own, doing your own thing, or is the companionship something that’s keeping you from going solo?
Can you go somewhere for a short while (without raising any suspicion), and then see if things change upon returning or is exactly the same as it is now?
These are good questions. As we get older, body chemistry changes. That effects all kinds of things. It’s worth a conversation with a doctor.
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Old 11 July 2019, 10:33 AM   #5
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After 3 years you just turn into roommates
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Old 11 July 2019, 10:43 AM   #6
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I am very sorry to hear this Tom, I hope it works out for the best, and if that is divorce then it is what it is. I am not one to offer advice, I have been divorced about 15 years and my marriage was a sham to begin with.

About the only thing I can offer is to send positive thoughts your way and hope.
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Old 11 July 2019, 10:44 AM   #7
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Life is too short to be unhappy everyday.
If you have honestly tried to get things back on track but have failed, it might be time to move on.
Could a trial separation be useful?
It could help better define the situation.

JMHO.
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Old 11 July 2019, 11:39 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj tt 2002 View Post
life is too short to be unhappy everyday.
If you have honestly tried to get things back on track but have failed, it might be time to move on.
Could a trial separation be useful?
It could help better define the situation.

Jmho.
+1
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Old 11 July 2019, 02:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ TT 2002 View Post
Life is too short to be unhappy everyday.
If you have honestly tried to get things back on track but have failed, it might be time to move on.
Could a trial separation be useful?
It could help better define the situation.

JMHO.
This


Marriage is nothing more than an act of insecurity brought about by societal and religious teachings. Except for child rearing, it serves no logical purpose, only fulfills said teachings.

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Old 11 July 2019, 03:57 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLRIDES View Post
This


Marriage is nothing more than an act of insecurity brought about by societal and religious teachings. Except for child rearing, it serves no logical purpose, only fulfills said teachings.



It got me health insurance between jobs.


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Old 11 July 2019, 06:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ TT 2002 View Post
Life is too short to be unhappy everyday.
If you have honestly tried to get things back on track but have failed, it might be time to move on.
Could a trial separation be useful?
It could help better define the situation.

JMHO.
I’d agree with this

4-6 rent on a nice apartment but pencil in a few days each week for a meal/ drink/ something that is neutral group but can allow talking

Hope it works out either way
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Old 11 July 2019, 10:54 AM   #12
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Definitely an interesting topic as almost everyone will have an opinion or two. Brave move to open up on TRF.

If I may be allowed to proffer an opinion - I noted the absence of her feelings in your post. A dispassionate discussion would have included that point of view.

My first thought is that unconditional love may no longer be present - presuming it was in the beginning.

My conclusion (albeit based on incomplete input) is that you’re in more pain than you may realize - or are comfortable sharing.




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Old 11 July 2019, 11:08 AM   #13
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Well it's easy for people online to say "break it off" but I know from experience that it's not an easy decision to make.

Personally I am divorced for about one year and I am infinitely happier now, even though staying with her would have made me much wealthier. Some questions I asked myself are: Does this person care how I feel? Do I look forward to seeing this person? Do I think they're generally a good person? My answer was probably "No" for all three. I have dated a lot since then and have been shocked by how many great women are out there -- that I'd been missing out on while being unhappily married -- but I'm pretty young so it was an easier transition to being single.
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Old 11 July 2019, 11:16 AM   #14
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What would happen if you made a decision to stop contributing to the arguments? If you can do that, maybe the arguments would subside.
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Old 11 July 2019, 11:24 AM   #15
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hoping for whatever is the best for both of you.
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Old 11 July 2019, 11:36 AM   #16
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Give it one more try.
Divorce could be both financially and emotionally draining
Consider moving out first.
Way out of her space. Get your your own "space".

Less talk less, less mistake, less hurtful things.
No talk, no mistake- but heck that's the point of a relationship, right?
Often, you just need someone to talk with.

But if it's toxic and hurtful, move on.

On a personal note, I am hoping that you'd miss each other after a long while of getting your own space.

Regards
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Old 11 July 2019, 11:37 AM   #17
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I wish you both the very best possible outcome and happiness. I'd recommend writing down all the pros and cons of staying and then do the same for leaving. Give it some time to contemplate. Persistent inaction will insure that you both are miserable. Invest yourself into the solution...whichever direction that takes you both. Best wishes and good luck.
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Old 11 July 2019, 11:43 AM   #18
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There is a lot of good information posted already. As mentioned, kudos for opening up in such a public manner.

As Paul brought up, this would be a great area for you to explore (either on your own or also in a follow-up post to the thread): How does she feel in all this?

Divorce is never easy. And since money will be lost either way, a trial separation, while it technically carries a "cost" so to speak, may help both parties rediscover what they like about each other and what they may otherwise be missing if ultimately the decision is made to divorce.

It's infinitely easier to go through a trial motion than to actually call it quits and attempt reconciliation.

One quote (I should add this to cop414's Sayings, Quotes, and Anecdotes!) that I learned years ago from my old breakup:

A broken relationship is like a broken mirror. Don't hurt yourself picking up the pieces trying to put it back together.

I'm not a counselor by any means but I sincerely empathize with you on this thread.

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Old 11 July 2019, 11:40 AM   #19
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If you're thinking about getting a divorce, get a divorce.

Spend the rest of your life with someone you want to be with.
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Old 11 July 2019, 11:58 AM   #20
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I’m happily married so I’m not an expert. I feel life is short. Why be unhappy? Most people stay in a poor situation; work, relationships etc because they are afraid of change. Generally speaking, when a person removes themselves for the poor environment and a little time has passed they are much more happy. I don’t know anyone that has said man, I really screwed up and shouldn’t have got divorced or I wish I didn’t leave my lousy employer. It’s usually quite the opposite. I feel people who get a divorce feel as though they have failed and don’t want to let others know due to judgment. In the late 70’s my mother walked out on my dad and 4 kids. I was very young so I don’t recall much. No doubt my dad was devastated, he worked hard in a family business 50 to 60 hours a week and had 4 kids. The way she left him is totally disgusting. Worst of the worst. I’m assuming my dad thought life was over. He married my step mom who is my “mom” and it is the BEST thing that ever happened him. They’ve been married 40 years now. 40 great years. My dad flourished in life, business and as a person. I gained 2 step sisters and we became the Brady Bunch. My dad had custody thank god. We had an occasional your not my mom crap but it was all good. My real mother would have held him back. He wouldn’t be the man he is today. My real mother married the guy she ran away with. They have both died...I did have contact with her as kid, but hadn’t had any contact in the last 10 years. It was a bizarre situating. We got a call that she was dying in the hospital and I went. I went back to work after she passed.


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Old 11 July 2019, 01:29 PM   #21
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My divorce from my first wife was the second best decision I ever made.

My best decision was marrying my second wife.

Sometimes two great people can make an awful couple. If thats the case I think you both may be happier, and better friends, apart.
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Old 11 July 2019, 01:25 PM   #22
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Very difficult situation, Tom, and wish the best outcome for you. I’ve always said that living together long-term with another human being is the hardest thing we humans attempt in this life. So it’s not easy and give yourselves credit for trying hard, going to counseling, etc. Seek happiness at any cost.
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Old 11 July 2019, 01:36 PM   #23
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I've had three cracks at marriage. So far the third time has worked quite well. We were friends and co workers for about 15 years before we took the plunge.

In my 63 years, I've found all partnerships require work. The total amount of work sometimes is not equal to each half. I'm not afraid of the work, and I don't mind the occasional inequity of the work.

My line in the sand is when it's too much work just to stay in the same house and fight.

Best of luck to you.
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Old 11 July 2019, 02:15 PM   #24
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That is a bad position to be in. I’m on my second marriage and all is good. My first ended after dealing with what you described.
I agree with the life is short idea. If you feel like you have done everything you can then it may be time to separate.
How does she feel about divorce?


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Old 11 July 2019, 02:26 PM   #25
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Quote:
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When couples are later in years and they argue every day, about everything, every day . . . .
Not an encouraging first sentence.
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Old 11 July 2019, 02:27 PM   #26
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the most significant thing I have identified is this,

Are you still communicating? If either of you has gotten to the point of disregard for the others feelings or opinions then in my experience this is the point of no return.

If you are not there then options are still available, one of which could be time away to reflect on what it is that is missing and what is important and hopefully how to prioritize those things together.

Never easy but time is known to heal.
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Old 12 July 2019, 12:11 AM   #27
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Quote:
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the most significant thing I have identified is this,

Are you still communicating? If either of you has gotten to the point of disregard for the others feelings or opinions then in my experience this is the point of no return.

If you are not there then options are still available, one of which could be time away to reflect on what it is that is missing and what is important and hopefully how to prioritize those things together.

Never easy but time is known to heal.
Great advice ~

I wish you luck. Communication is the key. Expressing ones feelings and an acknowledgement of them by the other party is where it all starts.

If the lines of communication are open - keep them open and work towards a mutual understanding on each others needs.

Life is too short to argue every day about everything. Why is that happening? Does she acknowledge it? Does she address it?

Are you part of the problem? Anything you can do to minimize the arguing?

Besides counseling are you doing everything possible on your end to calm the storm? Do you both pick and choose your battles?
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Old 15 July 2019, 05:37 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THC View Post
When couples are later in years and they argue every day, about everything, every day, when does one call time of death on a marriage?
Neither one of us are bad people, we both love each other’s kids. Fidelity is not an issue. She has grandkids that I adore, and she is great with my adult children. We both make a comfortable living and we got married 12 years ago, but have no kids together, biologically.

Counseling has been tried, please know, not looking for any wanderlust or mid life crisis, but just want a simple easy life with zero drama.

Cannot hurt to get advice from total strangers, right?

Thanks TRF family
Tom: I truly feel sad for you and your lady. Actually, what you described brings flashbacks about my own parents. So many reasons they drifted apart and I remember, even in elementary school, the pain and guilt I felt as the eldest child that I couldn't make them understand how it was affecting us.

In the end, my Dad passed away in his 70's from metastatic cancer, and so very unhappy. They never did divorce, but the relationship was tense up to approximately six months before his death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subtona View Post
the most significant thing I have identified is this,

Are you still communicating? If either of you has gotten to the point of disregard for the others feelings or opinions then in my experience this is the point of no return.

If you are not there then options are still available, one of which could be time away to reflect on what it is that is missing and what is important and hopefully how to prioritize those things together.

Never easy but time is known to heal.
Tom, I agree with Gus.

- - - -

My humble thoughts are about some things that could lend to harmony and bond-healing: (my personal experience here)

- little sticky notes with thoughtful/complimentary short messages, left to be found in surprise places... ie. on favorite coffee cup, tooth brush - the first-thing-in-the-morning things your lady touches that will bring a smile

- a hand written, mailed letter - nothing negative, outlining the best memories and hopes for future

- time out and counting: when a hot topic that you feel is sure to erupt into discord, without another word, immediately call a timeout and count to a number (eg: 30, or 50) that will cool the temper and potential, harsh responses. We used this approach frequently in my last job for patients to calm down before they said or did something they would regret. This approach could be outlined in a written contract - don't laugh, it works more than you think.

- volunteer your time together at pet rescues, nursing homes, soup kitchens, etc.: these volunteering experiences are very sobering and can make one evaluate what the important things in life really are about.

- dates to places that brought you joy and happiness in the past.
- faith: worship together

Regardless how your future evolves, I wish you the best and hope that all the kind and caring messages from the TRF members, some of which were quite heart-felt, interesting and educational, will give you some "steering" in this critical phase of your life going forward.

Indeed, I agree with you: TRF is a great, cyber place of some special people who are so willing to help with positive suggestions!

Best regards, and
Blessings,
DM
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Old 15 July 2019, 06:06 AM   #29
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[QUOTE=BBL;9809670]Tom: I truly feel sad for you and your lady. Actually, what you described brings flashbacks about my own parents. So many reasons they drifted apart and I remember, even in elementary school, the pain and guilt I felt as the eldest child that I couldn't make them understand how it was affecting us.

In the end, my Dad passed away in his 70's from metastatic cancer, and so very unhappy. They never did divorce, but the relationship was tense up to approximately six months before his death.



Tom, I agree with Gus.

- - - -

My humble thoughts are about some things that could lend to harmony and bond-healing: (my personal experience here)

- little sticky notes with thoughtful/complimentary short messages, left to be found in surprise places... ie. on favorite coffee cup, tooth brush - the first-thing-in-the-morning things your lady touches that will bring a smile

- a hand written, mailed letter - nothing negative, outlining the best memories and hopes for future

- time out and counting: when a hot topic that you feel is sure to erupt into discord, without another word, immediately call a timeout and count to a number (eg: 30, or 50) that will cool the temper and potential, harsh responses. We used this approach frequently in my last job for patients to calm down before they said or did something they would regret. This approach could be outlined in a written contract - don't laugh, it works more than you think.

- volunteer your time together at pet rescues, nursing homes, soup kitchens, etc.: these volunteering experiences are very sobering and can make one evaluate what the important things in life really are about.

- dates to places that brought you joy and happiness in the past.
- faith: worship together

Regardless how your future evolves, I wish you the best and hope that all the kind and caring messages from the TRF members, some of which were quite heart-felt, interesting and educational, will give you some "steering" in this critical phase of your life going forward.

Indeed, I agree with you: TRF is a great, cyber place of some special people who are so willing to help with positive suggestions!

Best regards, and
Blessings,
DM
[/QUOTE

I am overwhelmed at the support here, thanks Daniel, Carlos, and everyone.
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Old 11 July 2019, 03:47 PM   #30
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First, I hope whatever path your relationship takes, I wish you both end up in a happy space.
My 2 cents is to try to understand why you argue. The things that usually break up marriages like the infidelities are not an issue. Are the arguments really about something between the two of you or are they a response to other stresses and you each become each other’s outlet for venting anger ? If that’s the case and you still love each other, you can address those stresses and triggers and restore happiness. If the arguments are really about things between the two of you that for whatever reason have become worthy of arguing about, it might be time to start moving to amiably split or begin the divorce proceedings. Good luck sorting it out.
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