Better than Patek?

[Zuger]

Originally Posted by DasKptl

1. Patek is still the king.

(FP Journe, Gruebel and other small independents, while interesting, do not have a full-scale lineup of collections of watches. And so, they should not be in comparison.)


2. Vacheron is the second. (Their dress watches are better designed than Calatravas. Amazing high-complication watches. Overseas is underrated.)

3. Lange is the third. (I appreciate their movements. But their case design is boring. Their weakest point is the lack of sport watches.)


***I wouldn't even consider Audemars. (I'm bored with Royal Oak. Their dress watches are unattractive. And the CODE 11.59?--Yuck! )

Well said my friend.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Happy to hear your debate Steven. If you start with Rolex it won’t be a long debate

ALS, FPJ, those early RD with fancy crystal.... vintage Pateks too are better than modern imho.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

ALS, FPJ, those early RD with fancy crystal.... vintage Pateks too are better than modern imho.

Well we are on the same page with the ALS and FPJ. What’s this early RD you speak of? I’m drawing a blank what that is.

[Justindo]

Brand name and resale aside, I would easily put ALS and VC above Patek within the last two decades, and that's not even mentioning the independents or semi-independents.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Well we are on the same page with the ALS and FPJ. What’s this early RD you speak of? I’m drawing a blank what that is.

Apologies, Roger Dubuis. His early work was truly incredible and at a minimum equaled what Patek does today imho.




Roger Dubuis Model Sympathie Reference Ref. S37 57 5
If anyone knows of one of these for sale let me know. Missed seeing it come up at last year's auction :( Thx.

[PJ S]

^
https://www.chrono24.com/rogerdubuis...id10140202.htm
https://www.chrono24.com/rogerdubuis...-id9421146.htm

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by PJ S

^
https://www.chrono24.com/rogerdubuis...id10140202.htm
https://www.chrono24.com/rogerdubuis...-id9421146.htm

Many, MANY thanks, yet needs to be black dial version. Saw it when new in Vegas and ALMOST bought it ($12k as i recall). Biiiiiiig mistake for passing it up. Very few were ever made of that model (27 each as i recall). If you do run across a black dial version please PM me, thx!

[sensui]

Value retention aside.....FPJ and ALS would be the brands I'm familiar with that I think does many things better than Patek objectively. But the heritage/name of Patek elevates the brand above these IMO......guess that's the nature of these luxury goods, it's really about the name/brand.

[singe89]

Originally Posted by DasKptl

1. Patek is still the king.

(FP Journe, Gruebel and other small independents, while interesting, do not have a full-scale lineup of collections of watches. And so, they should not be in comparison.)


2. Vacheron is the second. (Their dress watches are better designed than Calatravas. Amazing high-complication watches. Overseas is underrated.)

3. Lange is the third. (I appreciate their movements. But their case design is boring. Their weakest point is the lack of sport watches.)


***I wouldn't even consider Audemars. (I'm bored with Royal Oak. Their dress watches are unattractive. And the CODE 11.59?--Yuck! )

Except AP makes WAY WAY better and more complicated sport watches than Patek. We finally got a PC from patek in the Nautilus. I would put APRP movements up against Patek or anyone else. Complicated APs and RMs (both APRP movements) dominate that market.

For dress watches I agree with the above.

[The Argonaut]

Originally Posted by GB-man

In terms of the whole package including brand I put nobody above Patek.

In terms of the watches without bias there are many, as noted GF for sure.

I’d say Journe, ALS, and a handful of other small independents. Honestly VC still belongs at the table as far as I’m concerned. Their high end stuff is really impressive.

Well said.

[subtona]

I am liking fp journe very much at this time but I will say the range for me is limited to only a few models of interest... just like Patek

Dabbled with Ferrier but didn’t stick.

Have had a few different Patek’s which I have let go for different reasons. Still have one (5940) and very fond of it.

Currently have two FP Journe and have found them to be the most complete offerings since my submariner.

[G M Francis]

It’s an interesting question as where the physical product ends and the brand begins blurs the line. I really like Laurent Ferrier and GB from the product standpoint, absolutely beautiful. However when you think of Patek (and Rolex) the brand DNA colours your view, as it should do.

[Token74]

Originally Posted by G M Francis

It’s an interesting question as where the physical product ends and the brand begins blurs the line. I really like Laurent Ferrier and GB from the product standpoint, absolutely beautiful. However when you think of Patek (and Rolex) the brand DNA colours your view, as it should do.

I agree with this I think. The reason that I say ‘think’ is that brand DNA is really important to me, but brand DNA mustn’t be confused with brand marketing. I don’t know yet, who has got genuinely strong DNA vs super strong marketing.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ichiran]

I'm ill-qualified to opine on this subject as I have personally only purchased watches from Rolex, Patek, Seiko and AP.

Though I have frequently read about the late Dr George Daniels being recognised by some as the best watchmaker of all time, the GOAT of horology if you will. He must have done something right.

[LPPP]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Hey neighbor! I’m in the universe as well. Good to see another one of us around

Nice Lange

That’s wonderful. Thank you!

Enjoying the stealthiness too.

[77T]

Dupe

[LPPP]

Sexy diamond tailed second hand.

Happily duped : p

FE9C0B45-964A-4FF9-8BCA-57D71BFB18C8.jpeg

[JJ WA]

I agree with Tom. Everything considered, I believe Patek is the best. I love some of the other brands mentioned here, but struggle to understand their very poor value retention. Why does an FPJ CS or a Lange 1 lose so much in the secondary market if they are so appreciated by the watch community? Some will say they are overproduced, but if demand were there, the depreciation in the secondary market shouldn’t be that heavy. For any watch that I spend more the 10K or so, value retention is certainly important.

[JJ WA]

Imagine this. You see the amazing watches that Gronefeld makes, then you Google their headquarters and what you find is a small house which has the name above the door with ‘TIMEPIECES’ missing an “I”, which fell off (see the street view). I mean, their watches are breathtaking, but how likely is it that they will continue independent without being swallowed by a conglomerate? If you spend 45K on a steel Gronefeld and later need to sell it, do you even find a buyer? What about servicing costs? I love the allure of the small independents, but can’t cope with their limited liquidity. For all that, I believe Patek continues to reign. Rolex does marvelous in value retention, but I prefer Patek style and the fact that it attracts much less undesirable attention.

[Jack Cassidy]

Originally Posted by JJ WA

Imagine this. You see the amazing watches that Gronefeld makes, then you Google their headquarters and what you find is a small house which has the name above the door with ‘TIMEPIECES’ missing an “I”, which fell off (see the street view). I mean, their watches are breathtaking, but how likely is it that they will continue independent without being swallowed by a conglomerate? If you spend 45K on a steel Gronefeld and later need to sell it, do you even find a buyer? What about servicing costs? I love the allure of the small independents, but can’t cope with their limited liquidity. For all that, I believe Patek continues to reign. Rolex does marvelous in value retention, but I prefer Patek style and the fact that it attracts much less undesirable attention.

Spot on. If high-end watch value retention is the key need as a buyer and collector: Go Patek or Rolex. That is a no-brainer.

[martinr]

Better is so subjective there really isn’t an answer to this question.

[Bearxj86]

You need to define your criteria for what Better means. For me it means:

1) Brand prestige and how it makes YOU Feel. Patek is pretty much #1 in that regard.
2) Finishing and craftsmanship - I would say Patek is in the holy trinity plus lange for mainstream.
3) Design - I would say Patek is top 3 - their designs are classic and timeless
4) Resale value - Top 3 with Rolex and RM
5) Cost of ownership over time. If you're looking for #2 to #3 in terms of how much upfront money you spend versus final product quality. Patek may not even be in the top 3-5 since Lange, Journe are clearly better value proposition along with some indepedent brands. HOWEVER, if you think about it from a cost of ownership perspective, some Pateks can allow your cost of ownership to be ZERO or positive, which in my opinion is a beautiful BEAUTIFUL thing.

For me based upon a weighted evaluation of qualitative factors. For me Patek is #1 for watches over $20k and Rolex is #1 for watches between $5-$20k. Below that you have a fist fight between Grand Seiko, Omega and a few other brands.

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by JJ WA

I agree with Tom. Everything considered, I believe Patek is the best. I love some of the other brands mentioned here, but struggle to understand their very poor value retention. Why does an FPJ CS or a Lange 1 lose so much in the secondary market if they are so appreciated by the watch community? Some will say they are overproduced, but if demand were there, the depreciation in the secondary market shouldn’t be that heavy. For any watch that I spend more the 10K or so, value retention is certainly important.

Hence it’s always a moot point when discussing this, any time brand value is involved, it is a no brainer as some one already pointed out.

Good watch doesn’t equal to good demand, brand and value retention is still the key. Yes there are watches out there better than Patek, but would you willing to lose a lot of your money to own those? Very few would.

Edit: Even amongest Patek, many here are not interested in pieces that has poor retention, so you see a glut of PCs and some others sitting at ADs.

[subtona]

Patek’s performance in resale among current offerings with rare exception (steel sports models) is not much better than a variety of lvmh, swatch & richemont brands.

If value retention is being used as the bar then a steel rolex has to be king.

If reliability & wearability is used as a gauge again rolex has to be at the top.

If we are talking innovation and design there are many independents that are bolder, more creative and with an as good or higher standard of finishing than Patek.

It is not hard to find Movements more beautiful, finer finished, better matched to case size, better dial balance, better protection from user error, better power reserve etc. Patek in many ways is tired.

Overproduction is also a factor for Patek in recent times.

Maybe the question should be where does Patek excel compared to the competition?

[Karbo]

Originally Posted by subtona

Patek’s performance in resale among current offerings with rare exception (steel sports models) is not much better than a variety of lvmh, swatch & richemont brands.

If value retention is being used as the bar then a steel rolex has to be king.

If reliability & wearability is used as a gauge again rolex has to be at the top.

If we are talking innovation and design there are many independents that are bolder, more creative and with an as good or higher standard of finishing than Patek.

It is not hard to find Movements more beautiful, finer finished, better matched to case size, better dial balance, better protection from user error, better power reserve etc. Patek in many ways is tired.

Overproduction is also a factor for Patek in recent times.

Maybe the question should be where does Patek excel compared to the competition?

Where do they excel ?
Well, they do everything almost perfectly
1- movements
2- design
3- finishing
4- service
5- history
6- communication
7- worldwide presence
8- able to produce a lot of units
9- independant
10- finally they sell a lot

They are not number 1 in every particular aspect, one can always find a specialized brand better for something, but they always are in the top 3 for every criteria. So thats why they are number 1 in the watch business in my eyes at least

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Karbo

Where do they excel ?
Well, they do everything almost perfectly
1- movements
2- design
3- finishing
4- service
5- history
6- communication
7- worldwide presence
8- able to produce a lot of units
9- independant
10- finally they sell a lot

They are not number 1 in every particular aspect, one can always find a specialized brand better for something, but they always are in the top 3 for every criteria. So thats why they are number 1 in the watch business in my eyes at least

Not talking business and ability to produce watches & marketing... rolex makes a million pieces per year... so again they would take a back seat, I am trying to give them a fighting chance.

Putting a list together of things they do well is all good but in the first four of your categories (relevant to my point) they have serious competition.

They are very fine watches but far from perfect imho

A macro shot of the hands of my 5940 will illustrate that plainly. Sorry it is not available at the moment but when I have the opportunity I will gladly share.

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by Karbo

Where do they excel ?
Well, they do everything almost perfectly
1- movements
2- design
3- finishing
4- service
5- history
6- communication
7- worldwide presence
8- able to produce a lot of units
9- independant
10- finally they sell a lot

They are not number 1 in every particular aspect, one can always find a specialized brand better for something, but they always are in the top 3 for every criteria. So thats why they are number 1 in the watch business in my eyes at least

Service? I’m not sure I agree with that. Waited 6 month for a link, and their turnaround time for complicated pieces is ridiculous.

[Justindo]

Originally Posted by subtona

Patek’s performance in resale among current offerings with rare exception (steel sports models) is not much better than a variety of lvmh, swatch & richemont brands.

If value retention is being used as the bar then a steel rolex has to be king.

If reliability & wearability is used as a gauge again rolex has to be at the top.

If we are talking innovation and design there are many independents that are bolder, more creative and with an as good or higher standard of finishing than Patek.

It is not hard to find Movements more beautiful, finer finished, better matched to case size, better dial balance, better protection from user error, better power reserve etc. Patek in many ways is tired.

Overproduction is also a factor for Patek in recent times.

Maybe the question should be where does Patek excel compared to the competition?

These are all excellent points and I basically agree with all of them.

[MCMartiny]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

Patek leads the industry on resale. Brands like Urban Jurgensen are every bit as good if not better. The dials, case and movement finish, technology and feel of the UJ is much nicer in my opinion than Patek. Similar price point watches.

Agree, I really love my UJ Alfred...not a substitute for my Pateks, but a nice complement to them that has a interesting history longer than PP, a somewhat higher degree of hand finishing (especially with regard to case, dial and hands) and an overall very pleasing and well balanced aesthetics that is hard to beat at any price point.

[conkers]

Greubel have the coolest factory with sheep grazing on the roof of the zero carbon building!

That does it for me! ��

But seriously how can anyone claim their communication and servicing are anything else than the worst available? To me after sales is just as important as sales and they fail dismally here. If you remove resale and brand there are several better quality watches out there. If resale and brand are what is important to you then they are top of the tree.