1680 Red Submariner - Seeking Advice

[MoonWave]

Dear forum members,

Firstly, thank you all for your contributions which have made this forum the wealth of knowledge that it is. Your posts have been an invaluable resource during my research (my partner would probably use a different word, but oh well) phase.

A short introduction: I’m an Australian ex-pat currently based in Shanghai. My background is mainly in Speedmasters, but over the last year or so, lurking on these forums paired with a few trips to Hong Kong have made me inevitably succumb to the allure of vintage Rolex.

My research has led me to believe that as a vintage Rolex rookie, my best bet when purchasing a piece as often adulterated as the red sub would be to go through a reputable dealer such as HQ Milton, Eric Ku, Andrew Shear etc. However, when taking into account the 30% import tax on luxury watches (I was pinged on a JLC earlier this year – first and last time I have a watch shipped here from overseas), it just doesn’t seem like a feasible option from a financial standpoint. Adding on the fact that Rolexes are a pain to ship back into the USA would mean that I would be buying a piece, sight unseen, without the option of return. So overall, buying from the US is not a very attractive option for me.

The only option remaining it seems would be to buy a piece from Hong Kong or Japan and bring it back on my wrist.

I’ve made a shortlist of a few pieces which I’m interested in; it would be much appreciated if some seasoned veterans could share their input. In particular, comments about case shape would be fantastic as I’m still getting familiar with the relative thin/thick lug scale. If anyone has a picture of a 1680 case which has seen minimal polishing, and wouldn’t mind sharing for me to use as a reference, that would be fantastic.

1. Quark MK4 2.7m
https://www.vintage-watch.jp/models/sub/174812/
I like the even, cream patina on this one. Lugs seem a little thin in comparison to others.

Price excl tax: 19,000USD

2. Quark MK4 3.0m
https://www.vintage-watch.jp/models/sub/177195/
Patina isn’t quite as mellow as the previous example, but could be due to different colour saturation of the photograph. Lugs are (to my novice eyes) nice and thick. Looks like a service bezel.

Price excl tax: 17,500USD

3. Jackroad
http://www.jackroad.co.jp/shop/g/g2682721/
Nice coloured patina – shame about the dirt spots on the 12 o’clock marker. Seems like tritium is starting to flake from the hour markers.

Price excl tax: 17,000USD

4.Quark MK4 2.9m
http://www.909.co.jp/stocklist_vtg/m...r_1680_175942/
Again, nice even patina. Service bezel is a minus.

Price excl tax: 17,000USD

5. Vintage Concept MKV 3.3m
https://www.chrono24.com/rolex/1680-...-id7066480.htm
I handled this one, along with the other two on offer from The Vintage Concept when I was in Hong Kong last weekend. Attached are some pictures I took through a loupe of the lettering and coronet.

Thanks again to Adam for getting back to me and giving me some Hong Kong specific advice.

Price: 18,000USD – I could perhaps negotiate this down to 16.5-17k


Thanks for your time and attention - I look forward to hearing any feedback you may have.

Cheers,
Lyndon

[SubKing]

It's a sellers market right now. In regards to red 1680's, you picked a bad time to buy because of the increased popularity on them at the moment. Will it last? no one knows.

as for prices, suggesting you're only looking at ft first examples, I can give you an idea of the market value.

Keep in mind condition is everything.

If you're looking for a flawless example, unpolished fat case, untouched dial and hands, expect to pay big money.

Since those untouched examples rarely come on the market and change hands privately, you can't really put an exact price on them. North of 20k USD without box or papers for an example like that easy..

The lower end of the price range stated below, are with small flaws and the higher end of the range, expect to be more mint.

For a Mint ft first example chamfers still intact, no B&P's figure 17k to 19k USD

For a polished well worn Red sub with minimal flaws here and there 14k to 16k USD

For a run of the mill Red with some service parts like insert, hands and flaws 10k USD these are more like project watches for some.

anything lower than that, I would not purchase.

If meters first examples then add maybe 25% more to the above prices..

If they have B&P's (box and papers) add a few grand to the above prices.

I been following the market for a long time on red subs and it is so interesting to see how they almost caught up to the double red SD.


That is pretty much a fair range you would expect to pay at the moment for ft first reds. They are ball park values, but I feel pretty accurate.

They are just ranges, obviously there is a lot that has to do with justifying a higher price. Something that can only be seen under 10x magnification could make a few grand difference. Which is why I go by more of a sellers word rather than the pictures. Those details are rarely captured by a pic.

Some sellers try to photograph a piece in the best light to make it look better than it really is, so be prepared for that as well.


It sounds like you have decided to keep the transaction in HK for the above stated reasons. I suggest you shop the dealer.. Someone who will stand behind their watch if it's not what you expect it to be when you get it. As far as judging if something is a fair deal or not based on dealer pictures is always hard. Need the watch in person to judge that.

Which is why if the dealer is a stand up guy, then I won't even look to hard at the pictures, I will just take their word for it and expect to get what they stated. Ask ask ask questions until you're blue in the face. Ask about flaws, damages, service history, where the piece came from, whats original, whats not, what has been repaired, i.e. laser welding, touch ups etc etc.


here are a couple pics of the lugs off my red 1680 for your reference.

[theflywrist]

Originally Posted by SubKing

It's a sellers market right now. In regards to red 1680's, you picked a bad time to buy because of the increased popularity on them at the moment. Will it last? no one knows.

as for prices, suggesting you're only looking at ft first examples, I can give you an idea of the market value.

Keep in mind condition is everything.

If you're looking for a flawless example, unpolished fat case, untouched dial and hands, expect to pay big money.

Since those untouched examples rarely come on the market and change hands privately, you can't really put an exact price on them. North of 20k USD without box or papers for an example like that easy..

For a Mint ft first example chamfers still intact, no B&P's figure 17k to 19k USD

For a polished well worn Red sub with minimal flaws here and there 14k to 16k USD

For a run of the mill Red with some service parts like insert, hands and flaws 10k USD these are more like project watches for some.

anything lower than that, I would not purchase.

That is pretty much a fair range you would expect to pay at the moment for ft first reds. The lower end of the price range stated above, are with small flaws and the higher end of the range, expect to be more mint.

If meters first examples then add 25% more to the above prices..

If they have B&P's (box and papers) add a few grand to the above prices.

I been following the market for a long time on red subs and it is so interesting to see how they almost caught up to the double red SD.

It sounds like you have decided to keep the transaction in HK for the above stated reasons. I suggest you shop the dealer.. Someone who will stand behind their watch if it's not what you expect it to be when you get it. As far as judging if something is a fair deal or not based on dealer pictures is always hard. Need the watch in person to judge that.

Which is why if the dealer is a stand up guy, then I won't even look to hard at the pictures, I will just take their word for it and expect to get what they stated. Ask ask ask questions until you're blue in the face. Ask about flaws, damages, service history, where the piece came from, whats original, whats not, what has been repaired, i.e. laser welding, touch ups etc etc.


here are a couple pics of the lugs off my red 1680 for your reference.

Cant see the dial, but that is a heck of a beautiful case!
I have also seen FF 1680 reds (watch only), in exceptional shape such as yours, at north of $20K already.
It is indeed the seller's market at this point.
More importantly, these really top quality red subs are rarely available anymore even at top dollar in a lot of cases! I think this goes across all popular models in exceptional shape.

OP. From the ones you have posted, I think I prefer the one from The vintage concept (via chrono24 link) the most.
The primary issue with the other listings are the pictures though.
I always like seeing vintage watches in natural light, and ideally under sunlight if possible. That is when they truly shine and when the beauty is truly revealed (IMO).

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by theflywrist

Cant see the dial, but that is a heck of a beautiful case!
I have also seen FF 1680 reds (watch only), in exceptional shape such as yours, at north of $20K already.
It is indeed the seller's market at this point.
More importantly, these really top quality red subs are rarely available anymore even at top dollar in a lot of cases! I think this goes across all popular models in exceptional shape.

I agree. I was trying to be a bit more conservative with my prices, but there are collector prices, then there are inflated dealer prices.

Most of what I see these days available from dealers are in the 16 to 19k range, but I feel they are not those crispy examples. Like you said rarely seen.

The dial on mine has aged to a grayish brownish when in sunlight, its actually quite beautiful and very unique for a ft. I honestly don't wear this one that much because of the condition, I want to preserve it, so doesn't get much wrist time, unless it's just out to dinner and back home.

Here is a snap of the dial in the light I took a bit ago, then a couple quick snaps took just now in my dark office.

[theflywrist]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I agree. I was trying to be a bit more conservative with my prices, but there are collector prices, then there are inflated dealer prices.



Most of what I see these days available from dealers are in the 16 to 19k range, but I feel they are not those crispy examples. Like you said rarely seen.



Here is a snap of the dial. I don't have any recent pics at the moment, but snapped this one a bit ago. I honestly don't wear this one that much because of the condition, I want to preserve it, so doesn't get much wrist time, unless it's just out to dinner and back home.

Absolutely marvelous! Congrats, it is indeed in exceptional shape.
Here’s mine. Fortunate to have purchased it in Jan of this year, an absolute keeper undoubtedly, and does get a ton of wear.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by theflywrist

Absolutely marvelous! Congrats, it is indeed in exceptional shape.
Here’s mine. Fortunate to have purchased it in Jan of this year, an absolute keeper undoubtedly, and does get a ton of wear.

Thank you, yours is stunning as well

I love the blueish fade to your insert when it hits the sun.

[SubKing]

Having some fun right now with the iPhone X. Hows about some 20x chamfer/Lughole porn?

[btinl]

As others have already stated, nice red subs are becoming more difficult to find and more expensive. I spent 6+ months looking for my red subs. I was fortunate to find two that came complete with double-punched papers, pristine dials, and very nice thick cases, but I also paid quite a bit more than I initially anticipated for them.

[swish77]

The above comments pretty much sum it up, but one humble suggestion: Unless there is a super compelling reason to try to obtain a certain serial number range or year for a red Sub, save some money and stick to a feet-first dial. I’ve never bought into the meters-first hype and I’d certainly never pay a premium for one.

And if you want to save even more, look at white 1680s. I understand the appeal of “Submariner” in red. It’s very cool. But ask yourself if it’s worth $8K or so for that one detail. I’ve owned a couple of each variety through the years, and I’m not so sure it’s worh it, for me anyway. And I’d much rather have a great condition white 1680 than a mediocre red 1680. Good luck in your search.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by swish77

The above comments pretty much sum it up, but one humble suggestion: Unless there is a super compelling reason to try to obtain a certain serial number range or year for a red Sub, save some money and stick to a feet-first dial. I’ve never bought into the meters-first hype and I’d certainly never pay a premium for one.

And if you want to save even more, look at white 1680s. I understand the appeal of “Submariner” in red. It’s very cool. But ask yourself if it’s worth $8K or so for that one detail. I’ve owned a couple of each variety through the years, and I’m not so sure it’s worh it, for me anyway. And I’d much rather have a great condition white 1680 than a mediocre red 1680. Good luck in your search.

I agree as personally, meteres first vs ft first was never worth it for me in terms of the premiums carried by the metered first examples. Just like a straight hand 1655 vs a lollipop hand, rail dial vs non rail dial. Some people will spend the extra money for those earlier examples and some won’t.

The only thing that appeals to me about meters first reds is that their dials tend to turn brown due to a defect in the paint and then you get in the tropical range.

Tropical is something I will pay for because I think they are spectacular

[swish77]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I agree as personally, meteres first vs ft first was never worth it for me in terms of the premiums carried by the metered first examples. Just like a straight hand 1655 vs a lollipop hand, rail dial vs non rail dial. Some people will spend the extra money for those earlier examples and some won’t.

The only thing that appeals to me about meters first reds is that their dials tend to turn brown due to a defect in the paint and then you get in the tropical range.

Tropical is something I will pay for because I think they are spectacular

Yes, totally agree with the point about "tropicals," real ones anyway. They can be amazing, and like great patina, make these beautiful vintage watches even more unique.

[MoonWave]

That's fantastic - appreciate for the input fellas, with a special thanks to SubKing for the detailed response and reference photos.

I'll update the post with pictures once I decide on one and pull the trigger.

[SubKing]

Best of luck to you on your search. Sometimes it can take awhile to find the example you’re looking for. I spend on average 6 months to a couple years easy to find some of the right pieces in my collection. Anytime I rushed it, I ended up with something that I didn’t keep long. So take your time and pull the trigger when that special piece arrives.

And make sure you come back here and post lots of pictures with a documented story of your hunt! That’s like music to our ears and candy to our eyes around here. All the best

[KBM]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Best of luck to you on your search. Sometimes it can take awhile to find the example you’re looking for. I spend on average 6 months to a couple years easy to find some of the right pieces in my collection. Anytime I rushed it, I ended up with something that I didn’t keep long. So take your time and pull the trigger when that special piece arrives.

And make sure you come back here and post lots of pictures with a documented story of your hunt! That’s like music to our ears and candy to our eyes around here. All the best

Just came by this thread, and I want to make a point of saying that your contribution was amazing for anyone thinking about red subs currently. Thank you very much, sir!

[ILuvSubs]

If you're visiting Hong Kong to find your red sub, you should check out this thread about HK vintage watch dealers

https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...2&postcount=24

None of these dealers appear to have websites, so you'll have to visit them personally and check if they have what you're looking for in stock.

I visited House Watch Co. last time I visited HK last year and John House had some amazing pieces (e.g., DRSD, Tiffany & Co. 1675) and more than happy to shoot the breeze about watches.

Originally Posted by MoonWave

Dear forum members,

Firstly, thank you all for your contributions which have made this forum the wealth of knowledge that it is. Your posts have been an invaluable resource during my research (my partner would probably use a different word, but oh well) phase.

A short introduction: I’m an Australian ex-pat currently based in Shanghai. My background is mainly in Speedmasters, but over the last year or so, lurking on these forums paired with a few trips to Hong Kong have made me inevitably succumb to the allure of vintage Rolex.

My research has led me to believe that as a vintage Rolex rookie, my best bet when purchasing a piece as often adulterated as the red sub would be to go through a reputable dealer such as HQ Milton, Eric Ku, Andrew Shear etc. However, when taking into account the 30% import tax on luxury watches (I was pinged on a JLC earlier this year – first and last time I have a watch shipped here from overseas), it just doesn’t seem like a feasible option from a financial standpoint. Adding on the fact that Rolexes are a pain to ship back into the USA would mean that I would be buying a piece, sight unseen, without the option of return. So overall, buying from the US is not a very attractive option for me.

The only option remaining it seems would be to buy a piece from Hong Kong or Japan and bring it back on my wrist.

I’ve made a shortlist of a few pieces which I’m interested in; it would be much appreciated if some seasoned veterans could share their input. In particular, comments about case shape would be fantastic as I’m still getting familiar with the relative thin/thick lug scale. If anyone has a picture of a 1680 case which has seen minimal polishing, and wouldn’t mind sharing for me to use as a reference, that would be fantastic.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by kauebm

Just came by this thread, and I want to make a point of saying that your contribution was amazing for anyone thinking about red subs currently. Thank you very much, sir!

Thank you for the kind words, it's my pleasure to help when I can.

[scooba]

1680 meters first full set , I gave $22,500 three years ago , I took the same advice then as I will offer today , buy the best example you can find and in a few years it will look cheap. Pay what is fair but buy on the condition

Andrew Shear had a absolute stunning one for sale on instagram about a week ago,

Jedley had a stunning one up as well ,

Buying from a dealer you will pay more but will also have the comfort of knowing it's correct

[MoonWave]

Originally Posted by ILuvSubs

If you're visiting Hong Kong to find your red sub, you should check out this thread about HK vintage watch dealers

https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...2&postcount=24

None of these dealers appear to have websites, so you'll have to visit them personally and check if they have what you're looking for in stock.

I visited House Watch Co. last time I visited HK last year and John House had some amazing pieces (e.g., DRSD, Tiffany & Co. 1675) and more than happy to shoot the breeze about watches.

Hi mate, thanks for the response.

I did manage to visit most of those places last weekend, but unfortunately John's shop was closed when I swung by.

I've been on touch with him via email; he seems quite honest with his watch descriptions. However, the one he currently has isn't quite what I'm looking for. He'll keep an eye out and let me know if anything pops up

[MoonWave]

Originally Posted by scooba

1680 meters first full set , I gave $22,500 three years ago , I took the same advice then as I will offer today , buy the best example you can find and in a few years it will look cheap. Pay what is fair but buy on the condition

Andrew Shear had a absolute stunning one for sale on instagram about a week ago,

Jedley had a stunning one up as well ,

Buying from a dealer you will pay more but will also have the comfort of knowing it's correct

That sounds like a cherry! Do you have any pictures? Unfortunately, at this point in time, a full set would be out of my budget. My main criteria would be a case which has seen minimal polishing, and an original, untouched dial (no reprinting, reluming, repainting etc).

Agreed. The temptation to pick up a sneaky bargain on eBay is strong ... but I've decided to buy from a dealer and, as another forum member put it, "outsource my worries".

Thank you for the leads. I don't use Instagram, but I've sent Andrew an email asking about it.

[MoonWave]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Best of luck to you on your search. Sometimes it can take awhile to find the example you’re looking for. I spend on average 6 months to a couple years easy to find some of the right pieces in my collection. Anytime I rushed it, I ended up with something that I didn’t keep long. So take your time and pull the trigger when that special piece arrives.

And make sure you come back here and post lots of pictures with a documented story of your hunt! That’s like music to our ears and candy to our eyes around here. All the best

I think that's a great piece of advice and one that I personally agree with. However, I'm undeniably feeling an element of time pressure due to the rapidly rising prices

Seems about 1-2 years ago, Hong Kong dealers were asking 80-100k HKD for mint examples. These days, 130k seems to be the starting price for a piece that wouldn't make an owner "proud" to have it on his/her wrist, so to speak.

I definitely will mate - looking forward to it even!