Boeing 737 MAX Discussion

[breitlings]

This an interesting discussion with multiple facets of failure that seem to boil down to a design compromise that used ambitiously efficient engines that was checked later by a flight control software system that cannot be overridden and was not well documented.

"it's a great plane to fly, if you want to crash" - former fighter pilot (professor of last MBA class).

"The plane's design is too old, it is based upon an evolution of a 54 year old plane". "Engines have a greater diameter and the plane is too close to the ground." "They moved the engines forward and in a position where it can cause the nose to pitch upward." - CNN Commentator

"The MAX was designed in response to an AirBus, they first made the engines more efficient [less powerful], and then stretched the fuselage. The plane will stall if it climbs too fast, to combat this Boeing put in a flight law system [autopilot correction which cannot be overridden] which will point the nose down to increase airspeed, but they didn't document it. They told customers they didn't need to retrain pilots for the MAX if they are 737 certified." - Fox News Analyst

"FAA reports indicate 74 complaints about flight control documentation from pilots" -AP

"Boeing potentially faces punitive damages [300% actual damages] in court." -Mom, esq.

[Sperry]

Originally Posted by breitlings

" ... in a position where it can cause the nose to pitch upward." - CNN Commentator

" ... ilots for the MAX if they are 737 certified." - Fox News Analyst

" ... ight control documentation from pilots" -AP

“The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion" Veteran reporter John Lawton, 68, speaking to the American Association of Broadcast Journalists in 1995 ― Michael Crichton, Airframe

That said, I am hopeful the plane will become safely flyable, even to those with less-than-par training.

[AzPaul]

In order to comment meaningfully on this subject, one really does need a high level of very specific technical expertise. Without it, the conversation becomes little more than people parroting things they've heard, but not backed with any real working knowledge.

[tudorbaja27]

Originally Posted by AzPaul

In order to comment meaningfully on this subject, one really does need a high level of very specific technical expertise. Without it, the conversation becomes little more than people parroting things they've heard, but not backed with any real working knowledge.

That's why I'm staying out of the conversation.

[Rockrolex]

Originally Posted by tudorbaja27

That's why I'm staying out of the conversation.

Me, too.

[Laszlo]

Boing is liable they hid the software.

[Abdullah71601]

Where is that guy who wrote that pilots were no longer required because modern airplanes fly themselves?

The technical side of this discussion is best left to aviation forums, where the design and testing braintrust hang out.

[Star Ferry]

I think it's tough because while you'd want this litigated by industry experts, are there any experts without ties to either Boeing or its biggest competitor (Airbus)

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Where is that guy who wrote that pilots were no longer required because modern airplanes fly themselves?

The technical side of this discussion is best left to aviation forums, where the design and testing braintrust hang out.

Well said.

[droptopman]

Way outside my knowledge base and do not trust the "media" to provide unbiased facts.

[Brew]

I'm not sure who to trust on this one, airlines, government, etc. It all smells. I thought I heard yesterday that the FAA "outsourced" oversight to the industry or manufacturer(s). Yeah, there's a good idea . . . .

[The Libertine]

Originally Posted by Brew

I'm not sure who to trust on this one, airlines, government, etc. It all smells. I thought I heard yesterday that the FAA "outsourced" oversight to the industry or manufacturer(s). Yeah, there's a good idea . . . .

I’ll do you one better. The FAA, in its role to both promote AND to regulate the aviation industry is at odds with itself. That’s quite unsettling, at least in my opinion.

[rajurama]

I am no more comfortable flying in those..

[Blansky]

Deregulation, privatization of oversight and lobbying groups make a lot of these scary issues.

From the Opioid crisis where lobbying groups got the designation of opioids listed as long term use, with no testing or oversight.

FCC run by industry insiders.

Finance run by revolving door operators who came from industry.

The inmates have taken over the asylum. Which is all nudge nudge wink wink, except people are dying.

Corporations are sociopaths by design, which is fine to some extent BUT there has to be a sheriff in town to keep them honest.

[Brew]

Originally Posted by Blansky

Corporations are sociopaths by design, which is fine to some extent BUT there has to be a sheriff in town to keep them honest.

Nah. Corporations are people; S. Ct. says so.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by Brew

Nah. Corporations are people; S. Ct. says so.

Actually corporations are people was slid into a case back in 1886 called Santa Clara County vs Southern Pacific Railroad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_...ic_Railroad_Co.

[JohnBaker3]

"Open the pod bay doors, Hal..."

Anytime a computer "corrects" the flight path of an aircraft without the PIC (pilot in command) concurring, bad things can happen...

There have been multiple in-flight incidents (other than the 737 MAX) where a computer made things worse; I personally feel that there should be a big red button on the control console that allows the pilot to immediately disconnect the computer if the situation requires it.

I received my pilots license back in the 70's where you had to actually fly the plane; computers could only tell you your location...

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Brew

Nah. Corporations are people; S. Ct. says so.

I will believe corporations are people when the state of Texas executes one.

[Brew]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

I will believe corporations are people when the state of Texas executes one.

We don't bite the hand that feeds us, that would be silly.

[Bigblu10]

If Boeing installed software MCAS that none of the pilots were aware of, or did not know how to disable then they have blood on their hands. All in the sake of falling behind the 8 ball with competitor Airbus and keeping their shareholders happy. Sounds like repositioning the engines and changing the height of the plane has created a flawed aircraft and now they have bigger issues than competing with Airbus.

[Brenngun]

Originally Posted by JohnBaker3

"Open the pod bay doors, Hal..."

Anytime a computer "corrects" the flight path of an aircraft without the PIC (pilot in command) concurring, bad things can happen...

There have been multiple in-flight incidents (other than the 737 MAX) where a computer made things worse; I personally feel that there should be a big red button on the control console that allows the pilot to immediately disconnect the computer if the situation requires it.

I received my pilots license back in the 70's where you had to actually fly the plane; computers could only tell you your location...

I agree however with fly by wire so prevalent for so long I start to wonder what percentage of airline pilots are true stick a rudder pilots any more.

[SMD]

We don’t know anything, and cannot possibly have the expertise to comment intelligently but sure let’s start s thread and engage in ignorant speculation.

[77T]

Originally Posted by SMD

We don’t know anything, and cannot possibly have the expertise to comment intelligently but sure let’s start s thread and engage in ignorant speculation.

Well said - I’m dismayed at some comments already.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[avidflyer]

Originally Posted by AzPaul

In order to comment meaningfully on this subject, one really does need a high level of very specific technical expertise. Without it, the conversation becomes little more than people parroting things they've heard, but not backed with any real working knowledge.

Agree, been flying for the last 25 plus years....typed on 6 jets, people need a way better understanding to comment on this stuff. Most cnn and fox news so called aviation experts have no time in type or are just plain idiots

[Spartacus]

Originally Posted by SMD

We don’t know anything, and cannot possibly have the expertise to comment intelligently but sure let’s start s thread and engage in ignorant speculation.

I had dinner with two pilots and an argument over the topic ensued.

Being an expert doesn’t means you know the right answer.

[kneedeep]

Originally Posted by SMD

We don’t know anything, and cannot possibly have the expertise to comment intelligently but sure let’s start s thread and engage in ignorant speculation.

All due respect, we have some highly experienced aviators here and they could contribute valuable insights. I'm not one of them. Probably better topic for aviation forum.

[SMD]

Originally Posted by kneedeep

All due respect, we have some highly experienced aviators here and they could contribute valuable insights. I'm not one of them. Probably better topic for aviation forum.

Not sure being pilot in and of itself provides the requisite expertise to know what happened here.

[kneedeep]

Originally Posted by SMD

Not sure being pilot in and of itself provides the requisite expertise to know what happened here.

It does not unless specifically 737 type rated with 737 Max time and experience with MCAS issues.

[breitlings]

Sorry if the thread is in poor taste. I do know I don’t want to fly on one and hope they cleansheet a new jet design for the next iteration. As a layperson I’d love to know if a power to weight ratio has been mandated.

[kneedeep]

Originally Posted by breitlings

Sorry if the thread is in poor taste. I do know I don’t want to fly on one and hope they cleansheet a new jet design for the next iteration. As a layperson I’d love to know if a power to weight ratio has been mandated.

It's an Open Discussion thread; however it's unlikely that there are true experts subscribed who can or want to contribute relevant knowledge at this time. Hundreds of innocent victims have died, and the cause of those deaths needs to be corrected permanently and a process implemented to prevent future tragic failures.