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Old 19 July 2019, 09:06 PM   #1
Ashton_Horologist
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When Is A Part ‘Fake’ - Watchmakers, Please Chime In

I was recently reading an old thread about re-bushing a vintage Rolex and to be honest, it made my blood boil. The conversation had to do with bushings that were no longer available. The owner of the watch was talking about fabricated bushing being ‘non original’.

I would like to set the record straight. Watches are practical tools, whether rare and vintage or not. They must tell the time and work hard, therefore there components need to be in tip-top condition. If a watch needs new bushings, a new balance staff, a wheel needs re-pivoting or heck,even if a new wheel needs fabricating this is all fine and acceptable behaviour. This does not mean your watch is now ‘fake’. Watchmaking is a historical profession and these skills have been practiced for centuries.

Patek Philippe has an amazing restoration department where they fabricate parts that are no longer available. These parts are not fake.

If your vintage Rolex, whose parts are no longer available, needs a new brass bushing or a screw need to be made, your watch is not now fake. It is simply now working correctly.

I apologize for the rant, but there is so much mis-information out there with regards to ‘fake’ parts and ‘everything must be original’ that quite frankly people have no idea what they are talking about.

I’d appreciate comments from fellow watchmakers.
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Old 19 July 2019, 09:18 PM   #2
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I am not a watchmaker but I do agree with you.
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Old 19 July 2019, 09:46 PM   #3
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Agreed
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Old 20 July 2019, 01:14 AM   #4
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When the part is made in China!


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Old 20 July 2019, 01:29 AM   #5
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I am not a watchmaker but I do agree with you.
Same.

It's like someone saying if you replace old suspension components on a car with new, but correct ones you have a fake car.
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Old 20 July 2019, 02:50 AM   #6
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Piaget too is a manufacture and pledges to replace any part, manufacturing them as need be.

Of course they’re the original manufacturer so it stands to reason that’s the best case scenario, Patel as well.

But sometimes you need to do what you need to do!!
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Old 20 July 2019, 03:01 AM   #7
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I have to agree. I'd rather be able to wear and enjoy a working watch with a few components recently fabricated by a watchmaker than a perfectly original watch with an unusable movement sitting in a drawer collecting dust.

However, if the watchmaker purchased an aftermarket component to make it happen then I might scrutinize that individual part depending on what it is. There are too many factors here to dissect every scenario.
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Old 20 July 2019, 03:57 AM   #8
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Agree.

Way too many trigger happy folks around here calling things Franken or fake.

I do what I like, buy what I want, and ignore them now.
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Old 20 July 2019, 05:00 AM   #9
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Not disagreeing at all with the absurdity of making a big fuss about using a new bushing on a vintage piece, but has someone actually called an entire watch “fake” for having such a component? Ashton, can you post a link to the thread you reference?
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Old 20 July 2019, 05:03 AM   #10
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Thought you might enjoy this Ashton. I have a 1675 RootBeer, serial about 3.2 mill with a Tiffany stamp on the dial that my father purchased new from Tiffany in Beverly Hills in the early 1970's. Just for the hell of it, I took it into The Rolex Service Center in Beverly Hills (very nice lobby!) to see how much to get just an insert for the bezel (and keep my original of course) He took the watch in back to the watchmaker and returned a few minutes later. He said the watch is too old for them to service and asked me if I had replaced the dial, I said no, the watch is exactly as it was when purchased, although, I just recently got the bracelet back after being refurbished by Rolliworks. He said they would have to send it to their "vintage" department in Pennsylvania where they would authenticate that the watch actually came with all the parts currently installed for a mere $500. They wanted to verify the dial and bezel were originally all brown and the bracelet was original to the watch. He then proceeded to question whether the bezel was aftermarket because it overlaps the case on both sides. He then said once they have authenticated the watch, if I were to have them service it it would be over $1000 for the service (plus the authentications fee) they would then have to replace the dial because of the co-branding with a new one and the hands would need to be replaced as well to match. Then he said they would have to replace the bracelet (approximately $3500) because it was too fragile and the bezel and insert because they too were worn. Oh and as far as the insert, which is what I was really interested in and he initially said they could do that and I could keep my original but after a visit to the backroom he said I would have to get the watch authenticated and serviced before they would sell me anything. Made me feel like I had a fake watch and was trying to pull a fast one on these idiots. Yea, so Rolex wants me to pay to authenticate their watch so they can do me the honor of replacing every single part. I do wonder what it would look like, it clearly wouldn't be my watch any more. Oh and i also provided these from two services in 1989 and again in 1995. He was like oh yea i know this guy but doesn't change anything...
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Old 20 July 2019, 05:11 AM   #11
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I'm (clearly!!!) not a watchmaker, sorry to hijack your thread… I was still feeling a little heat after my visit to RSC..
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Old 20 July 2019, 06:09 AM   #12
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I agree with your specific examples, but where does the line become blurred? What if it is more than just a bushing or screw? What if it is the dial, or the crown, or the hands, or date wheel?
Not disagreeing with you, just saying it can be a slippery slope.
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Old 20 July 2019, 09:33 AM   #13
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Thought you might enjoy this Ashton. I have a 1675 RootBeer, serial about 3.2 mill with a Tiffany stamp on the dial that my father purchased new from Tiffany in Beverly Hills in the early 1970's. Just for the hell of it, I took it into The Rolex Service Center in Beverly Hills (very nice lobby!) to see how much to get just an insert for the bezel (and keep my original of course) He took the watch in back to the watchmaker and returned a few minutes later. He said the watch is too old for them to service and asked me if I had replaced the dial, I said no, the watch is exactly as it was when purchased, although, I just recently got the bracelet back after being refurbished by Rolliworks. He said they would have to send it to their "vintage" department in Pennsylvania where they would authenticate that the watch actually came with all the parts currently installed for a mere $500. They wanted to verify the dial and bezel were originally all brown and the bracelet was original to the watch. He then proceeded to question whether the bezel was aftermarket because it overlaps the case on both sides. He then said once they have authenticated the watch, if I were to have them service it it would be over $1000 for the service (plus the authentications fee) they would then have to replace the dial because of the co-branding with a new one and the hands would need to be replaced as well to match. Then he said they would have to replace the bracelet (approximately $3500) because it was too fragile and the bezel and insert because they too were worn. Oh and as far as the insert, which is what I was really interested in and he initially said they could do that and I could keep my original but after a visit to the backroom he said I would have to get the watch authenticated and serviced before they would sell me anything. Made me feel like I had a fake watch and was trying to pull a fast one on these idiots. Yea, so Rolex wants me to pay to authenticate their watch so they can do me the honor of replacing every single part. I do wonder what it would look like, it clearly wouldn't be my watch any more. Oh and i also provided these from two services in 1989 and again in 1995. He was like oh yea i know this guy but doesn't change anything...


Not wishing to fuel a thread hijack, but why would you want to replace a perfectly good insert on that Root Beer?


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Old 20 July 2019, 09:35 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Ashton_Horologist View Post
I was recently reading an old thread about re-bushing a vintage Rolex and to be honest, it made my blood boil. The conversation had to do with bushings that were no longer available. The owner of the watch was talking about fabricated bushing being ‘non original’.



I would like to set the record straight. Watches are practical tools, whether rare and vintage or not. They must tell the time and work hard, therefore there components need to be in tip-top condition. If a watch needs new bushings, a new balance staff, a wheel needs re-pivoting or heck,even if a new wheel needs fabricating this is all fine and acceptable behaviour. This does not mean your watch is now ‘fake’. Watchmaking is a historical profession and these skills have been practiced for centuries.



Patek Philippe has an amazing restoration department where they fabricate parts that are no longer available. These parts are not fake.



If your vintage Rolex, whose parts are no longer available, needs a new brass bushing or a screw need to be made, your watch is not now fake. It is simply now working correctly.



I apologize for the rant, but there is so much mis-information out there with regards to ‘fake’ parts and ‘everything must be original’ that quite frankly people have no idea what they are talking about.



I’d appreciate comments from fellow watchmakers.


Good explanation of why some people have gone overboard on this “is it all original” bender of late.

Which is better: a non-functional Vintage Rolex with shot bushings, or a perfect working vintage movement?

I agree, the latter...


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Old 20 July 2019, 09:43 AM   #15
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Not wishing to fuel a thread hijack, but why would you want to replace a perfectly good insert on that Root Beer?


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Good question.
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Old 21 July 2019, 12:30 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Ashton_Horologist View Post
I was recently reading an old thread about re-bushing a vintage Rolex and to be honest, it made my blood boil. The conversation had to do with bushings that were no longer available. The owner of the watch was talking about fabricated bushing being ‘non original’.

I would like to set the record straight. Watches are practical tools, whether rare and vintage or not. They must tell the time and work hard, therefore there components need to be in tip-top condition. If a watch needs new bushings, a new balance staff, a wheel needs re-pivoting or heck,even if a new wheel needs fabricating this is all fine and acceptable behaviour. This does not mean your watch is now ‘fake’. Watchmaking is a historical profession and these skills have been practiced for centuries.

Patek Philippe has an amazing restoration department where they fabricate parts that are no longer available. These parts are not fake.

If your vintage Rolex, whose parts are no longer available, needs a new brass bushing or a screw need to be made, your watch is not now fake. It is simply now working correctly.

I apologize for the rant, but there is so much mis-information out there with regards to ‘fake’ parts and ‘everything must be original’ that quite frankly people have no idea what they are talking about.

I’d appreciate comments from fellow watchmakers.
I completely agree with you. Once a brand no longer manufactures parts the restoration/conservation work carried out in no way creates a fake or frankenwatch. It is completely necessary work that various brands recommend specific third party watchmakers to undertake when they do not offer this themselves.

Having trained at the BSOW at the same time as you and knowing the quality standards instilled in us I am sure you would agree this is where true 'watchmakers' are set apart from 'watch-repairers'.
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Old 21 July 2019, 05:28 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Ashton_Horologist View Post
I was recently reading an old thread about re-bushing a vintage Rolex and to be honest, it made my blood boil. The conversation had to do with bushings that were no longer available. The owner of the watch was talking about fabricated bushing being ‘non original’.

I would like to set the record straight. Watches are practical tools, whether rare and vintage or not. They must tell the time and work hard, therefore there components need to be in tip-top condition. If a watch needs new bushings, a new balance staff, a wheel needs re-pivoting or heck,even if a new wheel needs fabricating this is all fine and acceptable behaviour. This does not mean your watch is now ‘fake’. Watchmaking is a historical profession and these skills have been practiced for centuries.

Patek Philippe has an amazing restoration department where they fabricate parts that are no longer available. These parts are not fake.

If your vintage Rolex, whose parts are no longer available, needs a new brass bushing or a screw need to be made, your watch is not now fake. It is simply now working correctly.

I apologize for the rant, but there is so much mis-information out there with regards to ‘fake’ parts and ‘everything must be original’ that quite frankly people have no idea what they are talking about.

I’d appreciate comments from fellow watchmakers.

As a watch maker who faces these types of issues. THANK YOU!

The older the calibre the more likely you are to have to deal with this.

And truly much of this rhetoric is proliferated by the companies...who want to force the hand of everyone into their fold...when they themselves refuse to service the watches leaving mostly nowhere to turn. It is then regurgitated by collectors (no offense to anyone it's just fact) that really have very little experience in how the mechanics of the watch work. On the older watches...quite a bit of the parts weren't made by the factory anyway. They were contracted...some possibly by the same manufacturers that make aftermarket parts in Switzerland today. Mainsprings are a prime example.

The companies have made their parts unavailable to almost everyone...first by making largely unnecessary requirements of their independent watchmakers...and then shortly after the requirements may have been met at large time and expense, they then cut their accounts.

Before the insane collector minutia...watches were watches and there were 2 types of repair...good and bad. Yes if you can get the original part fabulous.

I recently was able to acquire original parts for one of my watches that I had searched for almost 10 years. I paid dearly. That particular refurb is beyond my skill level and I'm still having to pay a very fine craftsman in Switzerland a great deal to put it all right. He will have to also do a fabrication on one part. The part does not exist anywhere in the world. There were only ever 100 of the movements ever made. The miracle of finding what I found is beyond even possible.

Certain parts I would avoid unless there is no option...others hardly make any difference where they come from and often times the AM part is better.

I do not lose any sleep over the fact that my Mercedes has Meyle control arms...and not Mercedes Benz control arms. It has Moog Sway Bar Bushings.
I'm not concerned in the least.


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Old 21 July 2019, 06:20 AM   #18
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Thought you might enjoy this Ashton. I have a 1675 RootBeer, serial about 3.2 mill with a Tiffany stamp on the dial that my father purchased new from Tiffany in Beverly Hills in the early 1970's. Just for the hell of it, I took it into The Rolex Service Center in Beverly Hills (very nice lobby!) to see how much to get just an insert for the bezel (and keep my original of course) He took the watch in back to the watchmaker and returned a few minutes later. He said the watch is too old for them to service and asked me if I had replaced the dial, I said no, the watch is exactly as it was when purchased, although, I just recently got the bracelet back after being refurbished by Rolliworks. He said they would have to send it to their "vintage" department in Pennsylvania where they would authenticate that the watch actually came with all the parts currently installed for a mere $500. They wanted to verify the dial and bezel were originally all brown and the bracelet was original to the watch. He then proceeded to question whether the bezel was aftermarket because it overlaps the case on both sides. He then said once they have authenticated the watch, if I were to have them service it it would be over $1000 for the service (plus the authentications fee) they would then have to replace the dial because of the co-branding with a new one and the hands would need to be replaced as well to match. Then he said they would have to replace the bracelet (approximately $3500) because it was too fragile and the bezel and insert because they too were worn. Oh and as far as the insert, which is what I was really interested in and he initially said they could do that and I could keep my original but after a visit to the backroom he said I would have to get the watch authenticated and serviced before they would sell me anything. Made me feel like I had a fake watch and was trying to pull a fast one on these idiots. Yea, so Rolex wants me to pay to authenticate their watch so they can do me the honor of replacing every single part. I do wonder what it would look like, it clearly wouldn't be my watch any more. Oh and i also provided these from two services in 1989 and again in 1995. He was like oh yea i know this guy but doesn't change anything...
Thats a stunner in fact........ ................... ............................
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Old 21 July 2019, 06:29 AM   #19
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Thought you might enjoy this Ashton. I have a 1675 RootBeer, serial about 3.2 mill with a Tiffany stamp on the dial that my father purchased new from Tiffany in Beverly Hills in the early 1970's. Just for the hell of it, I took it into The Rolex Service Center in Beverly Hills (very nice lobby!) to see how much to get just an insert for the bezel (and keep my original of course) He took the watch in back to the watchmaker and returned a few minutes later. He said the watch is too old for them to service and asked me if I had replaced the dial, I said no, the watch is exactly as it was when purchased, although, I just recently got the bracelet back after being refurbished by Rolliworks. He said they would have to send it to their "vintage" department in Pennsylvania where they would authenticate that the watch actually came with all the parts currently installed for a mere $500. They wanted to verify the dial and bezel were originally all brown and the bracelet was original to the watch. He then proceeded to question whether the bezel was aftermarket because it overlaps the case on both sides. He then said once they have authenticated the watch, if I were to have them service it it would be over $1000 for the service (plus the authentications fee) they would then have to replace the dial because of the co-branding with a new one and the hands would need to be replaced as well to match. Then he said they would have to replace the bracelet (approximately $3500) because it was too fragile and the bezel and insert because they too were worn. Oh and as far as the insert, which is what I was really interested in and he initially said they could do that and I could keep my original but after a visit to the backroom he said I would have to get the watch authenticated and serviced before they would sell me anything. Made me feel like I had a fake watch and was trying to pull a fast one on these idiots. Yea, so Rolex wants me to pay to authenticate their watch so they can do me the honor of replacing every single part. I do wonder what it would look like, it clearly wouldn't be my watch any more. Oh and i also provided these from two services in 1989 and again in 1995. He was like oh yea i know this guy but doesn't change anything...
Walter C. Gooden was one of the best watchmakers in Los Angeles. He replaced my broken crystal on my then 2 month old GMT Master. When he gave the watch back he lectured me on the care of my time piece. He did not charge me a dime for this repair. I don't think that would happen today at RSC in Beverly Hills. I believe he fabricated parts for a friend's 1940's Rolex.
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Old 21 July 2019, 09:41 AM   #20
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Fake parts are counterfeit parts, not aftermarket or hand-made parts.

Counterfeit parts are made for the purpose of deception, to make someone think that they are authentic/branded, not just as replacements.

Anybody who calls a hand-made bushing "fake" is simply ignorant of the subject.
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Old 23 July 2019, 04:35 AM   #21
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Thats a stunner in fact........ ................... ............................
Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandCanyon View Post
Walter C. Gooden was one of the best watchmakers in Los Angeles. He replaced my broken crystal on my then 2 month old GMT Master. When he gave the watch back he lectured me on the care of my time piece. He did not charge me a dime for this repair. I don't think that would happen today at RSC in Beverly Hills. I believe he fabricated parts for a friend's 1940's Rolex.
Yes, they fixed my watch after the crown came off in my hand and noted all the worn parts, which are still worn today… The guy at the RSC in Beverly Hills also said this was not a Rolex Service Center. Perhaps he was right, I'm not familiar with the particulars of a RSC compared to an AD but at the top of the receipt it says RSC Walter C. Gooden Jr. Proprietor, not to mention the 1-year warranty from Rolex RSC. Confused why these receipts were discounted. I thought servicing by a RSC was validation for Rolex watches. Not my fault their documents from that time look like a bad Word template with mediocre graphics.
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Old 23 July 2019, 09:07 AM   #22
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Thank you!



Yes, they fixed my watch after the crown came off in my hand and noted all the worn parts, which are still worn today… The guy at the RSC in Beverly Hills also said this was not a Rolex Service Center. Perhaps he was right, I'm not familiar with the particulars of a RSC compared to an AD but at the top of the receipt it says RSC Walter C. Gooden Jr. Proprietor, not to mention the 1-year warranty from Rolex RSC. Confused why these receipts were discounted. I thought servicing by a RSC was validation for Rolex watches. Not my fault their documents from that time look like a bad Word template with mediocre graphics.
Walter Gooden was the Authorized Rolex Repair Service in Los Angeles for many years. If you needed Rolex warranty service in LA you sent your watch to Gooden. At the time he replaced my 2 month old GMT's crystal, 1982, he only serviced Rolex watches. When Rolex opened the RSC in Beverly Hills, Gooden lost his Rolex Service contract. I don't know why an individual at RSC in Beverly Hills said Gooden was not a Rolex Service Center, maybe not in the grand scheme of today. Gooden's operation was quite modest as compared to the RSC in BH. But at one time, Gooden was the only true Authorized Rolex Repair center in LA. Maybe 2002 or 2003 Rolex opened the RSC in Beverly Hills. FWIW - Gooden's business card from 1988 had the Rolex Logo and Rolex Authorized Service Center across the top.
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Old 23 July 2019, 09:16 AM   #23
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Walter Gooden was the Authorized Rolex Repair Service in Los Angeles for many years. If you needed Rolex warranty service in LA you sent your watch to Gooden. At the time he replaced my 2 month old GMT's crystal, 1982, he only serviced Rolex watches. When Rolex opened the RSC in Beverly Hills, Gooden lost his Rolex Service contract. I don't know why an individual RSC in Beverly Hills said Gooden was not a Rolex Service Center, maybe not in the grand scheme of today. Gooden's operation was quite modest as compared to the RSC in BH. But at the time it was the only true Authorized Rolex Repair center in LA.
Thank for the info!
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Old 23 July 2019, 10:26 AM   #24
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I wonder if the OP is talking about my thread, where I asked for advice about whether I should use hand-fabricated bushings or jewels to replace worn bushings, given that the original bushings were not available and my watchmaker didn't have any NOS bushings in his inventory.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=635773

If so, I'm surprised that my question made his blood boil. I started by saying I was leaning towards fitting jewels, since it was the most practical solution and asked if anyone had concerns about that choice. Nobody used the word fake, and everyone supported my choice to use jewels.

Apologies if the OP is referring to a different thread, perhaps he can post a link.
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