Took macro shots of my brand new 5164a. Very disappointed

[lord91]

Originally Posted by Russell996

In truth there will be a magnification level when even pieces by Greubel Forsey will no longer look perfect, the only real question is at what level of magnification should we still expect to see no imperfections.

I would suggest that absolutely anything that looks less than perfect to the naked eye is unacceptable, going beyond this level needs to be done sensibly. I believe the loupes used by watchmakers typically range from 3x to 10x but that using a loupe higher than this for working is virtually impossible due to the eye strain and extremely small field of vision - I myself use a 6x loupe. So if the piece is finished to the highest standard using a 6x loupe I wouldn’t expect a 50x magnifier to look perfect, no matter who makes the piece.

Excellent point!

[Jay (Eire)]

Originally Posted by Russell996

In truth there will be a magnification level when even pieces by Greubel Forsey will no longer look perfect, the only real question is at what level of magnification should we still expect to see no imperfections.

I would suggest that absolutely anything that looks less than perfect to the naked eye is unacceptable, going beyond this level needs to be done sensibly. I believe the loupes used by watchmakers typically range from 3x to 10x but that using a loupe higher than this for working is virtually impossible due to the eye strain and extremely small field of vision - I myself use a 6x loupe. So if the piece is finished to the highest standard using a 6x loupe I wouldn’t expect a 50x magnifier to look perfect, no matter who makes the piece.

These are sensible expectations. However, much of the forum seems to believe or have been sold on greater things.

[taylorhall]

Per PP website regarding the PP Seal in the Savoir-Faire section (i cannot post links due to low post count)

"Every single detail is taken into account to achieve the best conceivable result. All elements of a timepiece (including the movement, the inside and outside of the case, dial, pushpieces) are immaculately finished."

Will this change my perspective on PP-- yes. Will this change my purchasing behavior...likely no.

[IBDOC]

Originally Posted by taylorhall

Per PP website regarding the PP Seal in the Savoir-Faire section (i cannot post links due to low post count)

"Every single detail is taken into account to achieve the best conceivable result. All elements of a timepiece (including the movement, the inside and outside of the case, dial, pushpieces) are immaculately finished."

Will this change my perspective on PP-- yes. Will this change my purchasing behavior...likely no.

https://monochrome-watches.com/watch...philippe-seal/

Scroll down to the criteria list.

[BNABOD]

Originally Posted by IBDOC

https://monochrome-watches.com/watch...philippe-seal/

Scroll down to the criteria list.

““It is indisputable,” Patek Philippe says, “that a hallmark of quality must apply to the whole watch. This fact called for a new seal that defines all competencies and features of relevance to the manufacture, precision, and lifelong maintenance of a Patek Philippe timepiece. The rules apply to all of the manufacture’s movements regardless of their complexity. It not only applies to the movements: it encompasses cases, dials, HANDS, pushers, spring bars for straps, etc., as well as the aesthetic and functional aspects of finished watches. “

look hands are in there

[IBDOC]

Originally Posted by BNABOD

““It is indisputable,” Patek Philippe says, “that a hallmark of quality must apply to the whole watch. This fact called for a new seal that defines all competencies and features of relevance to the manufacture, precision, and lifelong maintenance of a Patek Philippe timepiece. The rules apply to all of the manufacture’s movements regardless of their complexity. It not only applies to the movements: it encompasses cases, dials, HANDS, pushers, spring bars for straps, etc., as well as the aesthetic and functional aspects of finished watches. “

look hands are in there

That’s not from the critera list. Look at how detailed the criteria are for movement parts compared to those for ”external elements” including dial and hands. The whole discussion about this is a bit naff to begin with seeing as Patek certifies its own watches. Did they break their own quality criteria? Not according to PP. Because it only says hands have to be made of gold (with certain exceptions). Other than that the PP seal doesn’t seem to concern itself with whether said hands look like boogers.

[slf86]

It’s not a grand seiko.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

I have to take issue with the comments that this is an entry level watch, which it obviously is price point wise, but therefore it need not be finished as well as a more expensive watch in the line. I believe the fit and finish on the entire line should meet same high standard of finish at the Patek price point, entry level or otherwise. I understand there is no difference in finish on Lange watches, no matter the price point. I suspect that is true with Gronefeld or Grubel. In my view, that is how it should be with all the manufacturers. That is why people buy the watches in the first place. They spend 20K on an Aquanaut because it is a Patek and finished to the highest Patek standards.

[mwireless]

Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2

I’m not sure what you expect.
That Patek’s entry level sports watch. I think the finish is consistent with that .

This is disappointing to all Patek owners regardless of which level. I own several high end nautilus and complications from Patek and to see anything like this is unacceptable for any of their watches. Period.

[Codik]

Nice shots!

To me, that’s an amazing level of finishing. I also see that the sides of the minute and hour hand are polished - what you are seeing is a reflection in the hands’ polish. The seconds hand does not seem polished but simply brushed.

I have not read all the comments, hopefully I’m not the first one to notice.

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by Codik

Nice shots!

To me, that’s an amazing level of finishing. I also see that the sides of the minute and hour hand are polished - what you are seeing is a reflection in the hands’ polish. The seconds hand does not seem polished but simply brushed.

I have not read all the comments, hopefully I’m not the first one to notice.

It’s not brushed, it’s marks left from stamping. Many hands have this, from many brands.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by slf86

It’s not a grand seiko.

Excellent point as GS is top-line for their timepieces. In turn, they use their best staff members to create each one. This results in excellent dial and finishing work.

PP's Aqua is just their typical modern bottom line basic stuff for the 'entry-level' production staff to make. If you want quality, consider spending at least $100k (preferably $200k on up) for something crafted by more longstanding, highly trained staff members.

Another option is to consider F.P. Journe or the many other independent brands that carefully craft each mechanical timepiece to very high standards. There's also the possible benefit of modern innovation as well, plus longer warranties and shorter service times.

[Kittayos]

Even if the finishing standard is deteriorating, I still don't see the watch will be any less in demand.

[Calatrava r]

Originally Posted by Kittayos

Even if the finishing standard is deteriorating, I still don't see the watch will be any less in demand.

Its also the supply side of the equation driving all this. Few are delivered and that makes them elusive and desirable. Wanting what no else can get or have. Macro photography is in few people's minds.

[IBDOC]

Originally Posted by Kittayos

Even if the finishing standard is deteriorating, I still don't see the watch will be any less in demand.

Did it deteriorate, though? I’m willing to wager that a 90s or 00s Aquanaut has comparable or worse finishing than newly minted ones. It’s just that photo macros, instagram and Grand Seiko have proliferated as of late, perhaps shifting the frame of reference from what used to be considered good finishing.

[guanxi]

Sorry and I certainly don’t want to offend anyone but I seriously don’t understand all the hype behind GS, I tried the snowflake once not to die stupid and ignorant as I was being hit by a heavy case of FOMO. The watch felt like the opposite of luxury more like FMCG, the case design is bulky and not elegant, the dial was not profound, no depth and completely sterile and the bracelet was the biggest disappointment I ever experienced in my life of watch lover...the bracelet has the looseness of a 1970s badly beaten up Rolex, I was not impressed at all! Seiko and GS are the Toyota and Lexus of the industry, good engineering, affordable and functional! For true luxury look elsewhere! Again very personal and own opinion, nothing against Japan on the contrary I love the culture and I travel there quite often both for business and holidays. I so wanted to like GS but it just doesn’t click...

I know I am not crazy because I have discussed this with other fellow watch enthusiasts who think the same...anyone out there also thinks GS is completely overrated?

[nyc2la]

Originally Posted by guanxi

Sorry and I certainly don’t want to offend anyone but I seriously don’t understand all the hype behind GS, I tried the snowflake once not to die stupid and ignorant as I was being hit by a heavy case of FOMO. The watch felt like the opposite of luxury more like FMCG, the case design is bulky and not elegant, the dial was not profound, no depth and completely sterile and the bracelet was the biggest disappointment I ever experienced in my life of watch lover...the bracelet has the looseness of a 1970s badly beaten up Rolex, I was not impressed at all! Seiko and GS are the Toyota and Lexus of the industry, good engineering, affordable and functional! For true luxury look elsewhere! Again very personal and own opinion, nothing against Japan on the contrary I love the culture and I travel there quite often both for business and holidays. I so wanted to like GS but it just doesn’t click...

I know I am not crazy because I have discussed this with other fellow watch enthusiasts who think the same...anyone out there also thinks GS is completely overrated?

GS is not overrated, but it’s also not trying to be Patek or high end luxury.

GS ASP must be 20-30% of Patek? I think the point is, for such a lower priced (relatively speak) watch, the fit and finish is excellent.

[yoast]

Originally Posted by guanxi

Sorry and I certainly don’t want to offend anyone but I seriously don’t understand all the hype behind GS, I tried the snowflake once not to die stupid and ignorant as I was being hit by a heavy case of FOMO. The watch felt like the opposite of luxury more like FMCG, the case design is bulky and not elegant, the dial was not profound, no depth and completely sterile and the bracelet was the biggest disappointment I ever experienced in my life of watch lover...the bracelet has the looseness of a 1970s badly beaten up Rolex, I was not impressed at all! Seiko and GS are the Toyota and Lexus of the industry, good engineering, affordable and functional! For true luxury look elsewhere! Again very personal and own opinion, nothing against Japan on the contrary I love the culture and I travel there quite often both for business and holidays. I so wanted to like GS but it just doesn’t click...

I know I am not crazy because I have discussed this with other fellow watch enthusiasts who think the same...anyone out there also thinks GS is completely overrated?

Yes, I feel the same. Really don't see the appeal. Also, as long as it says Seiko on the dial, - grand or not - I will always associate it with a cheap beater watch.

[IBDOC]

Originally Posted by yoast

Yes, I feel the same. Really don't see the appeal. Also, as long as it says Seiko on the dial, - grand or not - I will always associate it with a cheap beater watch.

No worries, Credor to the rescue!

[Michael Tang]

well said !!!

Originally Posted by offline99

this is very disappointing. However, i would much rather own a watch that only looks bad under macro than one that only looks good under macro. *ducks*


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[pam66]

Originally Posted by slf86

It’s not a grand seiko.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

lol

[mongrelnomoad]

I'm a huge GS fan, though more historically, as though I find their hi-beat, spring drive, and quartz movements hugely technically impressive, the proportions of their current and recent models lack the charm of the 'golden years' of the '60s and '70s. Every time I am in Tokyo (once or twice a year) I always make time to visit Wako and try on all the watches. Yet it is the vintage dealers around Ginza, Ueno and Nakano who get my cash.

That said, as others have noted, GS is not trying to be PP, VC or ALS. Although some models are pushing the envelope, they're aimed squarely at Rolex and Omega, and for finishing and technical achievement, they're hard to beat. Credor, after a few decades as a weird ultra-thin dress-watch offshoot, seems to have been drafted in (along with the GS Micro Studio) to tackle the ultra high-end of the market. Some of their recent offerings have been off the charts (like the platinum Micro Studio SBGW263 to celebrate GS's 60th anniversary), and I challenge anyone to look at a Eichi II up close and find any fault, to negatively compare them to PP, or seriously remark that it is "only a Seiko".

[bosch88]

Originally Posted by IBDOC

This thread is akin to someone buying a Porsche Boxster and then being ”very disappointed” that he can’t blow past a trimmed Subaru on the road. And then whining about it on an online enthusiast discussion forum and complaining about it to the dealer. Is it his right to do so? Absolutely. Can it be seen as cringey? Yeah. Is there any objectively correct assessment in this whole debacle? Hell no. If you don’t like the product quality at the posted price then don’t buy it. Patek didn’t market the watch as being of superlative finishing quality, ever. Expecting something else and then thinking that PP is at fault is pretty darn entitled. Caveat emptor.

I don't think that's a good analogy. It's more to deal with quality, instead of performance... buying a Boxster, you already know it's performance capabilities and shouldn't be surprised another car rated higher in power blows by you... however, you should expect a Porsche to have certain fit and finish qualities better than a car priced less... I would be pissed if the underside of the hood in my Porsche wasn't painted, but raw metal...as an example... Doesn't affect performance, but not at a level of finish one is to expect for that brand / price paid...

Why are Pateks one of, if not, the most desirable watch brands? For its famed history, high horology (on certain models), finishing, and style. Take away one of these elements, and it weakens it appeal.. Of course, one has to be reasonable, and nothing is 100% perfect...but in the case of Patek, should be damn close..

[IBDOC]

Originally Posted by bosch88

I don't think that's a good analogy. It's more to deal with quality, instead of performance... buying a Boxster, you already know it's performance capabilities and shouldn't be surprised another car rated higher in power blows by you... however, you should expect a Porsche to have certain fit and finish qualities better than a car priced less... I would be pissed if the underside of the hood in my Porsche wasn't painted, but raw metal...as an example... Doesn't affect performance, but not at a level of finish one is to expect for that brand / price paid...

Why are Pateks one of, if not, the most desirable watch brands? For its famed history, high horology (on certain models), finishing, and style. Take away one of these elements, and it weakens it appeal.. Of course, one has to be reasonable, and nothing is 100% perfect...but in the case of Patek, should be damn close..

So, all of this is based on your expectation and idea of what the brand should be and represent, and not what the brand is actually selling or marketing. Again, Patek has never claimed Aquanauts to be paragons of haute horlogerie. If people buy them with the expectation of quality that matches bubble market prices it’s sort of on them. Finishing on unobtanium vintage Pateks is often crap compared to what Cartier and JLC was churning out around the same time, so the level of finishing is obviously not an important enough part of the allure to weaken the appeal by any measurable amount.

And yes, I think the analogy works because it’s about buying the budget option where the majority of the cost is paying for the brand and all that it’s associated with, but somehow expecting there to be more than the brand gloria to connect the purchased item to whatever it is that the same company is making in their Super-omfg-VIP-Skunkworks-department.

Was i disappointed when I found out that the 21K rotor on my Lange Saxonia Moon was not actually solid 21K like it is in the Lange 1 Daymatic or the Langematik Perpetual, even though they look almost identical? Maybe a little. But the same principle applies.

[Russell996]

I think this thread is in danger of forgetting that the best watches are more than the sum of their parts. The Nautilus and Aquanaut are both pieces that on the wrist are special, that is their allure, the reason they are so popular and command a premium. Enjoy the special piece you own.

[pam66]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I think this thread is in danger of forgetting that the best watches are more than the sum of their parts. The Nautilus and Aquanaut are both pieces that on the wrist are special, that is their allure, the reason they are so popular and command a premium. Enjoy the special piece you own.

basically i agree with you. there were reasons why nautilus became special pieces and where the allure came from (the genta pedigree and all that...). they are definitely design icons by now but so are the rolex submariners and GMTs....as far as the aquanauts are concerned i never understood, they were created as the cheap version of the nautilus after all and for me they still are.
now the picture has changed, there are quite a few options for luxury sport watches and for me the nautilus/aqua range has just become one contender.
btw, in terms of finishing i find my newest incoming, the omega Moonwatch apollo 11 moonshine gold version really spectacular......nothing short of PP and for rolex PM watch money.....
sorry for getting off topic a bit.

[cascavel]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I think this thread is in danger of forgetting that the best watches are more than the sum of their parts. The Nautilus and Aquanaut are both pieces that on the wrist are special, that is their allure, the reason they are so popular and command a premium. Enjoy the special piece you own.

But we're having so much fun bitching and moaning about issues which, however pointless, distract us from the End Of The World scenarios on TV and other internet websites.

[myporsche]

Sad, I never regretted passing on the Aquanaut for an RO. I just laughed to myself when I was told the price (discounted) for a rubber strap entry Patek watch after I had tried on the stunning RO with the bracelet. No excuse for this level of finishing regardless of entry point, it's simply dents the reputation of the brand. I have had multiple GSes but there is no comparison on the way the right Patek (not Aqua or Nautlius for me) makes you feel once you put it on, the GS is not even a comparison. I just Patek had the chops (finishing) and consistency to complete the package.

[guanxi]

Originally Posted by cascavel

but we're having so much fun bitching and moaning about issues which, however pointless, distract us from the end of the world scenarios on tv and other internet websites.

+1

[mongrelnomoad]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I think this thread is in danger of forgetting that the best watches are more than the sum of their parts. The Nautilus and Aquanaut are both pieces that on the wrist are special, that is their allure, the reason they are so popular and command a premium. Enjoy the special piece you own.

Agreed. I personally love both the Aquanaut and Nautili, and all this talk of “entry level Patek” is just silly.