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Old 12 October 2018, 10:49 PM   #31
beshannon
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If I recall, you just had a wonderful thread about getting bored of watches. You wanted to sell off some and use the money for more important things in life. After all, they were no longer bringing you joy and you were bored of the “scene”. Please forgive my paraphrasing.

But I can very much relate that sentiment.

Myself, along with many others, wholeheartedly agreed with you.

Can you hoesntly say you did not care about what you could sell them for?
Yes

I took losses on two of the pieces I sold. The money has been re-purposed and I am happier with fewer watches that I enjoy more.

Once money is spent on luxury consumer items especially jewelry there is no expectation on my part that I will be able to get back what I spent. Those who cannot stomach the loss are deluding themselves.
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Old 12 October 2018, 11:15 PM   #32
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Yes

I took losses on two of the pieces I sold. The money has been re-purposed and I am happier with fewer watches that I enjoy more.

Once money is spent on luxury consumer items especially jewelry there is no expectation on my part that I will be able to get back what I spent. Those who cannot stomach the loss are deluding themselves.
Wow. That’s amazing. And truly, you must be doing fantastic.

Not sure the last sentence makes sense though. Unless in the most extreme end of the spectrum. Most, myself included, just like the idea that they are not losing their entire purchase price. Or if the item appreciates, even better.

I don’t mind a loss so much. It’s a hobby. Hobbies cost money. But I’m thrilled to know that I can get something out of the sale.

It sounds like you didn’t even try to get the max out of what you sold. Truly, you are living the dream to not have to even think about this stuff. I look forward to some day getting to that point.
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Old 12 October 2018, 11:21 PM   #33
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Wow. That’s amazing. And truly, you must be doing fantastic.

Not sure the last sentence makes sense though. Unless in the most extreme end of the spectrum. Most, myself included, just like the idea that they are not losing their entire purchase price. Or if the item appreciates, even better.

I don’t mind a loss so much. It’s a hobby. Hobbies cost money. But I’m thrilled to know that I can get something out of the sale.

It sounds like you didn’t even try to get the max out of what you sold. Truly, you are living the dream to not have to even think about this stuff. I look forward to some day getting to that point.
Just a personal opinion but I have found that stressing over the "value" of something intangible like jewelry or other possessions is just a major cause of stress. We see this on the forum everyday, how to avoid tax, how to avoid duty, how to get a discount . . .

I know people who own things that are worth less than they debt they have on them but they justify keeping them because of what "they" "paid" for it. They cannot accept that someone else will not pay just as much.

Life is too short.
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Old 12 October 2018, 11:29 PM   #34
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Just a personal opinion but I have found that stressing over the "value" of something intangible like jewelry or other possessions is just a major cause of stress. We see this on the forum everyday, how to avoid tax, how to avoid duty, how to get a discount . . .

I know people who own things that are worth less than they debt they have on them but they justify keeping them because of what "they" "paid" for it. They cannot accept that someone else will not pay just as much.

Life is too short.
Well said. And truly an enviable mindset. I agree with most of it. All of it really.

But it’s tough to live it completely.

Like I said above, I too am less enamored with watches than in the past. I think I just burnt myself out.

And I’ll soon be reducing my collection to pay for expenses related to a newly purchased home. I will potentially even sell gray to avoid the hassle. Which is what Ive mostly done in the past.

So I do agree with your mindset. But if I go gray or sell on my own, I’ll definitely still try and get the most I can. To a certain degree.

Life is too short. And this is not our living. I too would prefer to spend my time and energy elsewhere.
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Old 13 October 2018, 01:18 AM   #35
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Unless you are buying to resell then this does not matter at all.
Technically speaking you are 100% correct.


And yet it's still [insert your word here - mine is "annoying"] losing tens of thousands of dollars overnight on a watch.
No one likes being a "fool" - be that buying a watch, a new GTC4 Lusso, or your Yacht.

Maybe I'm just not rich enough to think to like you. (and I mean that seriously).
OR
Maybe this is valid concern to even the wealthiest purchasers of any good.
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Old 13 October 2018, 02:55 AM   #36
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Unless you are buying to resell then this does not matter at all.
i agree. I also consider it an asset though, and I also consider cars assets. A car is a terrible value proposition by comparison. People are constantly mixing issue of ability to recoup most of your money and an investment. Totally different and totally different motivations.

Not wanting to lose 50% isnt the same thing as expecting to make 50% and value retention has now morphed into a completely different area. People now consider a watch a "fallure" if you can break even on a used watch 2 years later. Weird.
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Old 13 October 2018, 03:20 AM   #37
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I agree with what others have said.

I made my first few patek purchases without a strong knowledge about value retention. I just liked them. I have no plans to sell, but knowing they would be worth more than I paid gives me some satisfaction. Which is obviously a strange paradox.
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Old 13 October 2018, 03:30 AM   #38
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Yes

I took losses on two of the pieces I sold. The money has been re-purposed and I am happier with fewer watches that I enjoy more.

Once money is spent on luxury consumer items especially jewelry there is no expectation on my part that I will be able to get back what I spent. Those who cannot stomach the loss are deluding themselves.
You have a very nice collection, which I think is well chosen. However, your 5711 is among the cheapest Pateks (at rrp), and as you sold off presumably cheaper watches to get where you are now, I would venture that even a high % loss was nothing worth worrying about. Not judging, as my collection is very small, but I think it provides context why you say value is not important.

Once you move up the horological ladder value retention is important, imho anyway. It reminds me of the saying a fool and his money are easily parted. No one who is spending serious money likes to take a bath. Be it watches or anything else, it just isn’t smart.

Btw if you ever want to sell your 5711 how does £500 sound?

Not at all wanting to be confrontational but there are 2 sides to this and you seem very blinkered in your view. But each to their own
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Old 13 October 2018, 06:01 AM   #39
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Btw if you ever want to sell your 5711 how does £500 sound?
Haha...I think the OP of this version of 5711 has one priced at £500...

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=633524
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Old 13 October 2018, 07:45 AM   #40
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Ironically certain blue chip watches might be considered to be more stable stores of wealth than stocks perhaps? Given the recent volatility in the market I find myself less likely to sell a good watch, not more likely.
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Old 13 October 2018, 11:53 AM   #41
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Ironically certain blue chip watches might be considered to be more stable stores of wealth than stocks perhaps? Given the recent volatility in the market I find myself less likely to sell a good watch, not more likely.
You don’t buy equities looking for stable stores of wealth. You’re looking for growth of course.

If you want a stable store of wealth buy income properties.
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Old 13 October 2018, 12:22 PM   #42
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You don’t buy equities looking for stable stores of wealth. You’re looking for growth of course.

If you want a stable store of wealth buy income properties.
....right. ... (snarky comment eludes me at the moment) ....ahem, well then
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Old 13 October 2018, 12:39 PM   #43
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....right. ... (snarky comment eludes me at the moment) ....ahem, well then
That was not an attempt at humor and I didn’t mean to be rude. Apologies if it came off that way
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Old 13 October 2018, 11:09 PM   #44
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That was not an attempt at humor and I didn’t mean to be rude. Apologies if it came off that way

Btw,.. developed market equities and income properties over time have similar returns assuming 2-3% CPI Inflation :). People forget to factor in leverage ;)


Recent rise in houses actually have a higher return 5% pirce x 4-5x leverage (mortgage/loan)or more = 20-25% Return.

Stock mkt aint giving u that G man.
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Old 14 October 2018, 02:36 AM   #45
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Btw,.. developed market equities and income properties over time have similar returns assuming 2-3% CPI Inflation :). People forget to factor in leverage ;)


Recent rise in houses actually have a higher return 5% pirce x 4-5x leverage (mortgage/loan)or more = 20-25% Return.

Stock mkt aint giving u that G man.
I agree it was a example. Whisky will do that.
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Old 14 October 2018, 02:52 AM   #46
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Reasons why I love watches particularly Pateks and Rolexes:
1) enjoy art/beauty and retain value
2) meet great people - i’ve met some amazing people - Patek collector’s are a different breed though
3) because I can
4) asset diversification
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Old 18 October 2018, 09:06 AM   #47
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You are trying to see if current prices will fall at the next crisis? Of course they will, usually it’s the watches and cars which are sold first and after that the second home or investment properties, not sure we will see Nautiluses and Aquanauts go under retail, but fall from the crazy prices that they are at now? Of course. The actual prices remind me of the bitcoin around last December, or real estate where I live before the crisis, two things which were doing so well that too many people who didn’t know very well, thiught that it would never burst, but guess what, it bursted, same will happen here, it’s inevitable, but we’ll probably see that only at the next crisis, but I garantee that they will gp down at the next one, totally sure about it, I mean honestly is a 5711 worth 50k??? Of course not, the people who are willing to out that kind of money are for a good part people who think like bitcoin investors in December or real estate buyers here, and I can tell you that many got wiped out, that the good times will continue, guess what they don’t, same thing will happen with the actual prices, when it goes up to fast and strong it’s bound to come crashing down one day...
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Old 18 October 2018, 12:04 PM   #48
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I'm a lot more concerned about my portfolio than my watches. I think there's somewhat of a happy medium between resale value and owning watches that one likes. I only buy what I like and have no intention of selling, even though that's not always the case, but it's still nice to know that the watches one buys will retain most of what one paid. Rolex and Patek are great for this but so are other brands if bought right. I've never lost money on a watch, not including inflation or opportunity cost.
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Old 18 October 2018, 12:34 PM   #49
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I'm a lot more concerned about my portfolio than my watches. I think there's somewhat of a happy medium between resale value and owning watches that one likes. I only buy what I like and have no intention of selling, even though that's not always the case, but it's still nice to know that the watches one buys will retain most of what one paid. Rolex and Patek are great for this but so are other brands if bought right. I've never lost money on a watch, not including inflation or opportunity cost.
Aside from Patek or Rolex, what models from other brands hold most of its value?
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Old 19 October 2018, 07:53 AM   #50
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Not sure if others saw,...but Swiss watch exports down 7% this month.. i guess this is what happens when stocks decline. . maybe im going to be able to get my 5711r soon.


Separately tried on a 5711r at a grey dealer in diamond district.... its so pretty. The 5980/1ar definitely thicker noticably.
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Old 19 October 2018, 08:04 AM   #51
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Aside from Patek or Rolex, what models from other brands hold most of its value?
AP 15202 steel is a pretty safe bet, and a very nice watch.
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Old 19 October 2018, 12:33 PM   #52
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Aside from Patek or Rolex, what models from other brands hold most of its value?
Not many if you're paying list. If you buy right new, however, than a lot of them.
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Old 19 October 2018, 02:28 PM   #53
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PM increased in units by 2.3 % but decreased by 14.3 % in revenue.
TT increased the most by 19 % and increased by 13.2 % in revenue
Steel decreased by 4.3 % in units and decreased by 9.3 % in revenue.

Revenue from Singapore decreased by 49.4 % while revenue from China increased by 17.3 %

The exports for watches above 3,000 CHF only decreased by 0.6 % in units, but decreased by 7.8 % in revenue.

This means that < 3,000 CHF is affected the most, but everything > 3,000 CHF is pretty stable.
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Old 19 October 2018, 09:31 PM   #54
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OP - yes, prices in the secondary / grey market will fall. Demand will fall across the board for new and used, and like 08/09 supply for used will increase because these are discretionary purchases and will be the first items to be sold by many.

FWIW, everyone thinks about value at some point. For one person that may be $10k in, for anothe that may be $100k. Some may not have reached thst point yet but there is a point at which it matters. Saying otherwise is really just nonsense.
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Old 19 October 2018, 11:38 PM   #55
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@fat_ninja
PM increased in units by 2.3 % but decreased by 14.3 % in revenue.
TT increased the most by 19 % and increased by 13.2 % in revenue
Steel decreased by 4.3 % in units and decreased by 9.3 % in revenue.

Revenue from Singapore decreased by 49.4 % while revenue from China increased by 17.3 %

The exports for watches above 3,000 CHF only decreased by 0.6 % in units, but decreased by 7.8 % in revenue.

This means that < 3,000 CHF is affected the most, but everything > 3,000 CHF is pretty stable.

Thanks for clarifying that...My collegue was mentioning the stats to me. But said this is actually a decelleration. But he caveated and said singapore was a tough comp last year and this year had one day less.
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Old 20 October 2018, 01:21 AM   #56
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FWIW, everyone thinks about value at some point. For one person that may be $10k in, for anothe that may be $100k. Some may not have reached thst point yet but there is a point at which it matters. Saying otherwise is really just nonsense.
The only point I care for value is the point where I look at my bank account to see if I can afford it. Of course I would be stupid if I pay retail if can get it from grey with 40 percent off.

You can believe me if I say I don't care about the value performance after I bought the watch. I treat a watch the same as vacation: I only use money I don't need and write it off instantly.

This compared to my low image desire in open public gives me the chance to actually enjoy and live this enthusiasm. I don't need to care about Rolex, Patek (only interested in GCs which I can't afford) and AP as I can fully enjoy and actually wear better or equal watches from BP, VC, FPJ, GS, GP, ALS, GO, Breguet, etc pp.
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