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Old 18 February 2017, 10:09 PM   #1
Token74
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Why the 'investment' snobbery?

Hey guys

Why do people on here get so hot under the collar when a fellow forum member mentions the word investment? Or when someone suggests a watch may go up in value (I.e. If the Sea Dweller were to be discontinued).

There are some seriously wealthy people on here and that's great, but there are also people who have to save really hard to buy a Rolex and every penny counts. The people who have had to save super hard and make other compromises to afford their Rolex have just as much right to wear a nice watch and to ask questions on this forum, and who can blame them for caring about future value?

I hear people suggest that the days of people making big profits on small production-volume Rolexes are over, but the Daytona is arguably disproving that theory.

And by big profits, that's all relative! If the SD were to be discontinued and as a result went up in value by 10%, for some people that would be significant.

I have a Ceramic Daytona that I could have turned over for an overnight £5k profit; despite me not being wealthy, I equally have averything 'important' in my life so wasn't interested in profit. But for many people that would be hugely significant, and I don't blame them one bit.

So rather than be negative to people who ask questions on future value based on ifs and buts, how about we just be nice and helpful.
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:21 PM   #2
haberdashery
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Hey guys

Why do people on here get so hot under the collar when a fellow forum member mentions the word investment? Or when someone suggests a watch may go up in value (I.e. If the Sea Dweller were to be discontinued).

There are some seriously wealthy people on here and that's great, but there are also people who have to save really hard to buy a Rolex and every penny counts. The people who have had to save super hard and make other compromises to afford their Rolex have just as much right to wear a nice watch and to ask questions on this forum, and who can blame them for caring about future value?

I hear people suggest that the days of people making big profits on small production-volume Rolexes are over, but the Daytona is arguably disproving that theory.

And by big profits, that's all relative! If the SD were to be discontinued and as a result went up in value by 10%, for some people that would be significant.

I have a Ceramic Daytona that I could have turned over for an overnight £5k profit; despite me not being wealthy, I equally have averything 'important' in my life so wasn't interested in profit. But for many people that would be hugely significant, and I don't blame them one bit.

So rather than be negative to people who ask questions on future value based on ifs and buts, how about we just be nice and helpful.
I think you have to look at the definition of investment first off. According to Google, the definition of investment is "the action or process of investing money for profit."

It's impossible to see how many of a certain model will be produced, how long the production run will last for, and how demand is going to hold out over the years.

The Rolex watches you could possibly make a case for being an 'investment' are those hard to find stainless models, so the BLNR, the D-Blue and the ceramic Daytonas.

The problem with this, is that the BLNR and D-Blue are seemingly a little easier to come across these days, and dealers are paying retail for them. The Daytona has been out for less than 12 months, I seriously doubt it will command a £6,000+ premium over retail for the entire production run.

So by the true definition of an investment, it's hard to see how any modern Rolex can be an 'investment'. You mentioned that you could have sold your ceramic Daytona for £5,000. That's not so much an investment as a quick flip - because over time the 'profit' you could flip it for is likely to decline, not increase.

One of the biggest issues I have with the whole 'investment' thing is that when you venture beyond the UK and Europe, a lot of ADs in America have a full line up of models in their cases. The only watch I had an issue getting my hands on in America last November, was the SS Daytona - for which there was a two year waiting list. How can something so easy to obtain be defined as an investment?

If, on the other hand, you're looking for a watch that offers great residuals - a Rolex (especially stainless) tends to have residuals like no other.

If buying a Rolex is such a struggle and is a case of people counting every penny, they most definitely should not be banking on it to go up in value. For a long time, I couldn't afford a Rolex - no amount of man maths or kidding myself could change that. Any modern Rolex is a luxury item, and is not an investment. Vintage models, on the other hand, are a whole different ball game.

If someone is genuinely looking for an investment, there are far better bets out there than a modern Rolex.
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:21 PM   #3
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Well said brother!!

I never came across such posts yet but totally understand people who have to be more sensible when it comes to taking a big chunk out. Even if the profit might be irrelevant, I don't blame anyone for asking.
At the end of the day, at least for me, the goal is to enjoy looking at my wrist while having some back up should things go down south!!
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:22 PM   #4
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By definition 'investment' investment of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.

Then yes this could be applied to a select few watches, cars etc but it's speculative one and considering most of these threads are based on comparison of a old collectible Rolex model Vs and now mass produced item it's a risky area and far better options out there.
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:27 PM   #5
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A watch is a luxury good. I don't think of them as an investment. If they happen to increase in value well then that's a bonus.

Buying with the hope it will be worth more down the road is more like speculation than an investment to my way of thinking.
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:34 PM   #6
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It's a bad investment because there isn't a reasonable expectation for growth. There is no way to know when you will recover the depreciation on a new watch or whether the watch will ever be collectible. It's a totally unsubstantiated guess whether a particular watch will be valuable in the future. Most members are entirely unwilling to put their brethren in a position to gamble away his hard earned money on such a proposition, and will advise you that a watch is not an investment.

The same hard earned pennies can be invested in much more reliable ventures that carry a reasonable expectation of growth over time. Responsible members will advise you to go that route for investments, and to go with your heart for watch purchases.
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:34 PM   #7
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To add the way I see it is there are far worse hobbies out there and with buying right brand/price a large portion of the money spent is pretty secure and easily taken out.

I've never purchased to make money but have came out up this year on flipping but it's only just covered what I've lost since getting into watches seven years ago!

Funny think is I've lost on a Daytona but made on a CK2998, BLNR, YM but then repurchased a BLNR as a gift for a family member if this was my investment plan I'd be rubbish
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:37 PM   #8
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I just enjoyed wearing them on my wrist. I like the fact that a Rolex maintains good value. Say I buy a Rolex for $6K wear it for lets say 1-2 years. Then go and sale it for $5k. That's a 1K hit at $500 a year. So it cost me $500 a year to rock a luxury watch on my wrist. Not bad not bad. The only thing I collect that goes in value are my sneakers (jays/yeezys/nike/etc) Today I can flip 3 pairs of some hot rare Jordans and buy a 9k-10k Rolex.
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:42 PM   #9
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I for one hope that the Rolex watches I have go up in value. That's doesn't mean that I am reliant on them doing so and it will just be "on paper" anyway.

I couldn't say if the extremely wealthy members on here are the ones who poo poo any posts of this nature, I would imagine it's a cross section tbh.

I do think there a few highly strung posters on here who should be a little more tolerant of other views or peoples questions that they deem irrelevant or plain stupid.

If it's a serious question or something that someone has heard and wants to pass on and it's not blatant trolling imo then it has a place here.
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:44 PM   #10
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I just enjoyed wearing them on my wrist. I like the fact that a Rolex maintains good value. Say I buy a Rolex for $6K wear it for lets say 1-2 years. Then go and sale it for $5k. That's a 1K hit at $500 a year. So it cost me $500 a year to rock a luxury watch on my wrist. Not bad not bad. The only thing I collect that goes in value are my sneakers (jays/yeezys/nike/etc) Today I can flip 3 pairs of some hot rare Jordans and buy a 9k-10k Rolex.

Wow. Sounds like I need to buy three pairs of trainers asap. I assume these wouldn't be £100 trainers when new and be some sort of limited edition.
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:48 PM   #11
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:48 PM   #12
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Wow. Sounds like I need to buy three pairs of trainers asap. I assume these wouldn't be £100 trainers when new and be some sort of limited edition.
I bought five pairs of Yeezys last Saturday at £149.99 each and sold them all for £500 each this week. They're not easy to get your hand on though!
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:53 PM   #13
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I think the criticism is usually when a first time buyer posts, "which one should I buy as the better investment?" And the response is "don't buy a Rolex as an investment, buy it to wear etc" and I agree. I think it's great that Rolex, in general, holds value well and maybe even increases, but I do believe that people should wear and enjoy their watch rather than continually worry about it and future pricing.
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:54 PM   #14
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Well fair play to you sir, that is impressive.

Change the word yeezys to ceramic Daytonas and you would be being called all the names under the sun lol.
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:55 PM   #15
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I bought five pairs of Yeezys last Saturday at £149.99 each and sold them all for £500 each this week. They're not easy to get your hand on though!
Explains why I couldn't even get one pair
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:58 PM   #16
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Explains why I couldn't even get one pair
What size are you?
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Old 18 February 2017, 10:59 PM   #17
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Well fair play to you sir, that is impressive.

Change the word yeezys to ceramic Daytonas and you would be being called all the names under the sun lol.
Except ceramic Daytona's are selling for over MSRP for many buyers and will likely lose all of that value in the future. This is not the first watch to exhibit this pattern. People who overpaid for other models took a huge depreciation hit to be the first to have the watch.

Look at current V serial Milgauss prices. Those were very hot initially, then the bottom fell out.
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Old 18 February 2017, 11:02 PM   #18
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I think it's important to accept this hobby for what it is, and not attempt to justify an otherwise financially unwise purchase by calling it an "investment".

Many Rolex retain their value remarkably well, and if one "buys right" it is often possible to wear one for years at limited expense. That does not make it an investment. It still ties up thousands of dollars that need to be fully disposable with no guarantee of a return.

There are much better places to invest your money. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with saving for a Rolex. But I would never recommend doing so if you are in anyway dependent on its long term value. Just my
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Old 18 February 2017, 11:04 PM   #19
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I think stocks, bonds, real estate, etc. are investments.

IMO, unless you buy some rare piece from auction house, otherwise I wouldn't count that as investments.

If you think modern Rolex that are being mass produced as investment, I suggest you to think again. Many people can make more money in stock/bond market with the money you spend on a Rolex.

I'm not rich and I don't perceive watches as investment. I still see plenty of SD4000 at several ADs in my area and I'm preparing to buy the new SD4000 once it's available.
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Old 18 February 2017, 11:07 PM   #20
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Valid topic, Vince. Truth is, no matter what you ask or post here you'll get some ugly posts or at least criticism. Some will say it's a 'normal' thing at any forum, but with our (welcome) strong moderation I believe TRF is a friendly place. Back to your point I think all repeated topics tend ro receive the same answers, just like is it safe ones or about removing stickers, discontinued models with no proof etc. This particular topic has many standard answers like no modern watch is an investment, buy right, do your homework first and the list goes on. I think they're all true and if you combine them, odds are good you'll lose less money when you need to sell or even get your money back. A litte profit is welcome sometimes too but I belive when you talk about investments and watches, only certain vintage models could be classified as such but I wouldn't get any of them for this particular reason.
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Old 18 February 2017, 11:09 PM   #21
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Allergic reaction is the answer methinks. When combined with opinionated online-itis you get some of the pointed comments about modern Watch investing.

People speculate on penny stocks and call that investing.

And those who buy & hold 30 yr. bonds say they are investing for the future.

If I look at the Rolex Price History charts, every SS Sub, SD or GMT from 1987 sells about 2-3x of its old MSRP - OK for an ROI. The gold ones not so good - so you must choose wisely...

Of course, that $2500-ish 1987 SS Daytona with the PLN dial - well that would have been a spectacular return.


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Old 18 February 2017, 11:10 PM   #22
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I bought five pairs of Yeezys last Saturday at £149.99 each and sold them all for £500 each this week. They're not easy to get your hand on though!
Exactly. I had 13 pairs. Kept one for me. Flipped the rest at $600 each. Paid $235.40 retail. Next Saturday 2/25 its gonna be another good yeezy release. Zebras are coming. I'm scheduled to get 10 pairs. Will flip easy for $1,000. People don't understand how hard it is to even buy 1 pair of yeezys at retail. I'm plugged though. I'm a big buyer. Elite re seller. Just like there's trusted sellers on here with watches...I'm a trusted seller on all the places I resale. You'll be surprised how good the fakes have become now a days. I've had to learn about fakes and how to tell them apart. But I just don't flip yeezys. Limited Jordan releases. A lot of adidas ultraboost/nmd's/xr1's/human races and what not.
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Old 18 February 2017, 11:13 PM   #23
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Say you buy a watch for $8,000 today. In ten years you sell it for $6,000. Have you lost $2,000? Depends on the rate of inflation, if you ask me.
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Old 18 February 2017, 11:57 PM   #24
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To me the criticism simply lies in monetizing a fun interest/hobby. I'd love it if the value of all Rolex watches dropped to zero, so that people would simply wear what they like and not worry about scratching their watches. I worry about the cost of buying my watch, but I don't worry about the value after I buy it. I'd actually be annoyed if the value of my watch shot up so much that it made me second guess whether to wear it.
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Old 19 February 2017, 12:08 AM   #25
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To me the criticism simply lies in monetizing a fun interest/hobby. I'd love it if the value of all Rolex watches dropped to zero, so that people would simply wear what they like and not worry about scratching their watches. I worry about the cost of buying my watch, but I don't worry about the value after I buy it. I'd actually be annoyed if the value of my watch shot up so much that it made me second guess whether to wear it.
I doubt your statement, unless you NEVER sold a Rolex and would NEVER anticipate in doing so!
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Old 19 February 2017, 12:09 AM   #26
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Vince i agree with you man i have noticed what you point out at too. Any SS Rolex Sub, GMT, Sea Dweller (especially purchasing good second hand exmples in good prices, or new scarce ones like Daytona, LV, BLNR, Deep Blue) has a potential in the medium to long term, i.e. as long as you do not flip like a tosser (like myself).
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Old 19 February 2017, 12:18 AM   #27
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A watch is a luxury good. I don't think of them as an investment. If they happen to increase in value well then that's a bonus.

Buying with the hope it will be worth more down the road is more like speculation than an investment to my way of thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjclark32 View Post
I think the criticism is usually when a first time buyer posts, "which one should I buy as the better investment?" And the response is "don't buy a Rolex as an investment, buy it to wear etc" and I agree. I think it's great that Rolex, in general, holds value well and maybe even increases, but I do believe that people should wear and enjoy their watch rather than continually worry about it and future pricing.
Haven't had any coffee yet, hope this makes sense
Quote:
Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
To me the criticism simply lies in monetizing a fun interest/hobby. I'd love it if the value of all Rolex watches dropped to zero, so that people would simply wear what they like and not worry about scratching their watches. I worry about the cost of buying my watch, but I don't worry about the value after I buy it. I'd actually be annoyed if the value of my watch shot up so much that it made me second guess whether to wear it.
I agree with these points, it's a luxury forum and we are all already very privileged to own these great watches so talk of making more money is a bit much plus we are here for the love of the pieces. I love that we talk here about hustling and getting discounts, even from members with big collections, and that we are not blasé about the price of these luxuries. I think most of us do not come from money and so we know our Dads would thrash us to within an inch of our lives even with their zimmerframes if we didn't get the best deal we could.

The point about new members I think is key, we don't want guys joining here just to try and make a fast buck, if the value of your watch rises that is great but that should be a minor ancillary benefit.
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Old 19 February 2017, 12:23 AM   #28
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Cheapens the hobby and prestige for some I guess. Part of the hobby for me. It's a pain that I don't get to enjoy my GMT as much through fear of putting an ugly ding in its flawlessness but it gave me a reason to add another beater to the stable.
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Old 19 February 2017, 12:25 AM   #29
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I don't see them as investments as I always seem to sell low and buy high
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Old 19 February 2017, 12:43 AM   #30
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I haven't noticed the animosity regarding the investment aspect of buying a Rolex, but to me, it's missing the point. Buying a new Rolex, or any non-vintage Rolex is a little like buying a new car. You are probably fooling yourself if you justify it as an "investment." Especially when you factor in the cost to insure it (perhaps 1%/year), as well as the cost of service (perhaps $50-$100 on average per year). Unless you are buying a vintage piece for big money and know what you are doing, you perhaps should be honest with yourself and say, "I want it. I can afford it. It tends to depreciate slower than most other luxury brands. And if inflation kicks up and the retail price rises fast enough, I may even make a little money on it if/when I sell it."

IMO, that's about as far as the "investment" discussion should go. But I tend to ignore the comments here I find objectionable, so I don't get to phased by anything I read here.
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