Why inhouse Panerai movement are not COSC

[nim]

I just found out that all Panerai inhouse movements are not certified to COSC standard of +6/-4seconds per day

I called up the Panerai boutique in Singapore, was told by the staff that all Panerai inhouse movement P2, P3, P9 are tested inhouse to a lower specification of +/-10seconds per day, as compared to its cheaper decorated ETA OP movements which are tested by COSC to a higher specifications of +6/-4seconds per day

Staff explained the +/-10seconds per day for inhouse movements is stated in the warranty book

We are paying more for inhouse movement, yet they perform below par compared to the cheaper third party ETA OP movements

Any comments on this?

[CKL1213]

I guess paneristi doesn't really care about COSC standard as long as there are straps and buckles to play around.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by nim

I just found out that all Panerai inhouse movements are not certified to COSC standard of +6/-4seconds per day

I called up the Panerai boutique in Singapore, was told by the staff that all Panerai inhouse movement P2, P3, P9 are tested inhouse to a lower specification of +/-10seconds per day, as compared to its cheaper decorated ETA OP movements which are tested by COSC to a higher specifications of +6/-4seconds per day

Staff explained the +/-10seconds per day for inhouse movements is stated in the warranty book

We are paying more for inhouse movement, yet they perform below par compared to the cheaper third party ETA OP movements

Any comments on this?

Today the Swiss COSC is little more than a pure marketing tool,as with careful regulation most any modern day movement could past said test.And its quite expensive to test every movement,plus certification is only for the time of testing to say its been tested.Just like say with Rolex the movements in the non date sub like the cal 3000/3130 not tested.While exactly the same movement in the Explorer was tested.And just because any movement is not tested it don't mean it cannot meet or exceed the COSC test.Many years ago now I bought a Alpha manual wind chronograph of Ebay for $60 then, I bought it for the movement.Now the movement was a Seagull ST19 which although a Chinese made movement,it was based on the old Swiss Venus cal 175.Now back in the late 1960s early 1970s many of the old Swiss movement makers went bust because of the quartz watches.So the Chinese bought the tooling and the rights to make the Venus movement.Now movement is well finished and when tested on my watchmaker friends timing machine out of the box it was about +10 seconds.But after a bit of regulation it ran well inside COSC spec and has ran the same for now over 8 years but has been re-regulated a few time since.

[TonyD]

COSC is what it is. That doesn't mean that a non-COSC watch can't run +/-2s per day or that a COSC watch will run within spec a month later. I don't put much stock in it.

That being said I DO agree that for such a price and the concept that an in house movement is "better" than a run of the mill ETA movement that it would be good to have it regulated better than +/-10 when it leaves the factory.

[Cabaiguan]

Originally Posted by nim

...yet they perform below par compared to the cheaper third party ETA OP movements

Why are you equating certification with performance? You are assuming that a movement that is submitted to a third party, and passes certain tests, is better than one that doesn't get submitted.

[Cru Jones]

I don't know about +/- 10 seconds, but, I do think it's wrong to think that in house means "better running" than top grade ETA.

Generally speaking, in house means better finishing (usually) and the emotional appeal of a manufacture, but it also means higher pricing, higher service costs and longer service times. Also, in the case of OP, at least, in house also means a signficantly shorter track record by which to judge the robustness and reliability of a movement.

As for COSC, it's time has passed, IMO, and more of a marketing gimmick. It's why I'd be happy if Rolex were to delete the SCOC text from its dials.

[Robbie68]

I think Panerai's standard is actually +8 to -6. All in-house movements are tested in the case across six positions. COSC test the movement only, which doesn't always reflect the performance when cased. With regard to cost, the P9000 movement has a 72 hour power reserve and a "jump" hour hand. Ultimately though you are also paying for development costs which have long since been written off by ETA. Personally, if I'm paying $7k plus for a watch, I would prefer it to have a different movement to the one in say a $450 Steinhart ( nothing wrong with Steinhart, I think they are fantastic value). For Panerai to become a truly high end manufacturer, they really need to have an in- house movement.

[nim]

thks robbie, your reply must be the best i have seen so far
i agree every bit that any serious watch maker MUST make its own inhouse movement, and that by paying more for a inhouse panerai , we are actually showing support to panerai for its inhouse movt development (indirectly paying for their development costs as well)

but fact is, panerai boutique staff here in singapore confirmed that the specs is actually +/-10sec per day for panerai inhouse movt, not +8/-6

and they confirm ETA do perform better at +6/-4, they did not explain why though, i guess its because ETA has been making more movements than anyone else on earth , that's why

to one of the replies (Cabaiguan) that asked if performance equates to cosc cert and vice versa, the answer by boutique staff is a firm YES - lower spec means poorer performance

Originally Posted by Robbie68

I think Panerai's standard is actually +8 to -6. All in-house movements are tested in the case across six positions. COSC test the movement only, which doesn't always reflect the performance when cased. With regard to cost, the P9000 movement has a 72 hour power reserve and a "jump" hour hand. Ultimately though you are also paying for development costs which have long since been written off by ETA. Personally, if I'm paying $7k plus for a watch, I would prefer it to have a different movement to the one in say a $450 Steinhart ( nothing wrong with Steinhart, I think they are fantastic value). For Panerai to become a truly high end manufacturer, they really need to have an in- house movement.

[Cru Jones]

the -/+10 doesn't sound right, so, i would like to see a scan of the warranty book. as for the boutique personnel, this wouldn't be the first time that a salesperson had no idea what they were talking about....

[Robbie68]

The +8 -6 came straight from my 352's warranty book, happy to scan when I get a chance if that helps. Although these are the limits, my 352 runs between 3 and 4 seconds a day gain. Interestingly I have a custom RPaige Wrocket that uses a 1915 Elgin pocket watch movement. It runs +1 consistently and is my most accurate watch (Others include Blancpain, Rolex, Omega, Vulcain and Bell & Ross). For me the jump hour hand and 72 hour power reserve of the Panerai movement are features I feel add value, as long as the watch runs within specs I'm happy.

[Travelller]

Originally Posted by nim

...called up the Panerai boutique in Singapore, was told by the staff that all Panerai inhouse movement P2, P3, P9 are tested inhouse to a lower specification of +/-10seconds per day...

Unsurprisingly, that's not correct. I've yet to meet a sales person that knows more about a specific product than I do - that's only because I've put a lot of effort in researching a few products while the sales person needs to know "something" about every item they sell... .

Originally Posted by Robbie68

I think Panerai's standard is actually +8 to -6...

As noted above, OP test their in-house, in-house.... What's nice is the fact that their tests are more comprehensive than the COSC as well as more restrictive

Originally Posted by Travelller

FWIW, Panerai has an own name for their accuracy test: CTMP (Contrôle Technique des Montres Panerai)

PANERAI TESTS FOR WATCHES WITH IN-HOUSE MOVEMENTS
In the course of their construction at the Panerai Manufacture, the in-house calibres – and the watches as a whole – are certified after undergoing several demanding final tests of its accuracy, regularity of operation, ageing and water-resistance.

RATE CONTROLS AND CTMP TEST (CONTRÔLE TECHNIQUE DES MONTRES PANERAI)
Test carried out to check the regularity of operation of the movement combining the measurement of the average rate at a given moment and its stability in operation over time and in different positions of the watch.

CHRONOFIABLE® TEST (NIHS 93-20 STANDARD), ACCELERATION TEST (NIHS 91-10 AND NIHS 91-30 STANDARDS)
These consist of checks carried out over 21 consecutive days, during which the movement is subjected to various dynamic stress cycles, to assess the resistance of all the components, the maintenance of a regular rate and of the correct functioning for the period indicated. The test cycle is equivalent to the use of the watch for about 6 months on the wearer’s wrist. Thermic and climatic tests are also carried out over 14 days in total (included in the above-mentioned 21 days), exposing the watch between 17°C and 57°C with 75% humidity.

AGEING TEST OF THE HAND-SETTING MECHANISM AND WINDING STEM
This test is performed by carrying out a series of 1,000 cycles on the winding stem and the hand-setting mechanism, followed by a resistance test of the winding stem subjected to a force of 25N.

AGEING TEST OF THE WINDING MECHANISM
This test simulates the use of the watch for about 5 years.

ANTIMAGNETIC WATCH (ISO 764 STANDARD)
In the presence of magnetic fields of average intensity (4,800 A/m) the watch must continue to run regularly.

TESTS CARRIED OUT ON THE CASE
The quality of every single component of the case is checked. Then, after the case has been assembled, it undergoes its first test for water-resistance, to guarantee the protection it provides against the infiltration of dust and humidity. When the watch (case, movement and dial) has been assembled, it is tested again using various instruments to ensure the perfect water-resistance of your watch. Moreover, the case undergoes: the thermal shock test to verify the resistance of the parts to sudden temperature variations; the damp heat test to determine the reliability of the watch under dampness and heat conditions; the salt spray test to check the corrosion resistance, and the synthetic sweat test to verify possible alterations by artificially simulating the conditions of use.

WATER-RESISTANCE TEST (ISO 22810 STANDARD)
The case of the watch is subjected to a long series of tests, carried out at various temperatures and according to procedures which ensure its complete water-resistance. To simulate the effects which could occur in the event of the watch being exposed to a shower or immersed in water for a long time, the case is initially tested by a vacuum apparatus, then it is placed in a little bath with a few centimetres of water for a set period of time. The water-resistance test is carried out by a special instrument which subjects the watch to a pressure significantly greater than the guaranteed value of water-resistance. Finally, the strict Panerai standards provide for a “water drop” test, which is performed by heating the case and placing a drop of cold water on the surface of the crystal protecting the dial. In this way, the possibility that there might be any moisture inside the case itself is eliminated.

THE WINDING CROWN. SHOCK RESISTANCE TEST
The test carried out on the winding crown consists of subjecting the crown itself to the shock of falling from a height of 50 cm, with the watch inclined at an angle of 45°, thus unequivocally exposing this component to shocks. The crown must maintain its water-resistance in spite of the repeated shocks it undergoes.

RESISTANCE TEST OF THE DEVICE PROTECTING THE WINDING CROWN
This test is performed by carrying out a series of 5,000 opening and closing cycles of the lever of the device protecting the winding crown.

AGEING TEST OF THE CHRONO PUSH-PIECE
This test is performed by carrying out a series of 3,000 cycles on the push-piece for the chronograph function, which correspond to 1 year of intensive use.

WEAR RESISTANCE TEST
This test is carried out by a series of cycles in which the crown is rotated in both directions (3,000 cycles) with a perpendicular force of 5N.

Information on Panerai’s internal quality certification is included in the
Certificates Booklet supplied with the watches with in-house movements.
The Certificates Booklet includes:
the watch ID
the international guarantee certificate
the international guarantee terms
the limited warranty terms
the international repair guarantee terms
the rate controls and CTMP test (Contrôle technique des montres Panerai)
the details of the tests carried out on the other components of the watch

Originally Posted by Robbie68

The +8 -6 came straight from my 352's warranty book, happy to scan when I get a chance if that helps.

This member was nice enough to scan his "certification" a while back

[HRFdez]

Originally Posted by Travelller

Unsurprisingly, that's not correct. I've yet to meet a sales person that knows more about a specific product than I do - that's only because I've put a lot of effort in researching a few products while the sales person needs to know "something" about every item they sell... .


As noted above, OP test their in-house, in-house.... What's nice is the fact that their tests are more comprehensive than the COSC as well as more restrictive





This member was nice enough to scan his "certification" a while back

Good info! And the time is?

[Cabaiguan]

Originally Posted by nim

to one of the replies (Cabaiguan) that asked if performance equates to cosc cert and vice versa, the answer by boutique staff is a firm YES - lower spec means poorer performance

Stop listening to boutique staff. Lol. Use your noodle. COSC certification and performance are exclusive. Think about it in other terms...is a car that is subjected to Consumer Reports testing and passes with flying colors BETTER than a car that is not tested? Of course not. By definition you can not compare the two.

I'm an engineer and can discuss this issue to death. Fact is, trust your head not some salesman at a boutique.

[nauticajoe]

I've never heard of the +/- 10 before. I'm content that my 312 is keeping up with COSC specs.

[nim]

i tend to trust panerai boutique staff - these are employees of panerai
if they cannot be trusted, can the brand itself be trusted?

recall the brooklyn bridge pam318 SE scam? - is it staff error? management error?
http://www.network54.com/Forum/35339...terious+PAM318

bottomline is, panerai is a newly revived upcoming young brand (relatively)
its not even 10years since they introduced their first very own inhouse movement
they are young and lots of room for improvement, and lots to prove

i support panerai inhouse movements, and want to see it outperform ETA and cosc standards
in fact, i look forward to the day all pam, i mean ALL PAM, are fitted with inhouse movements, none using eta

Originally Posted by Cabaiguan

Stop listening to boutique staff. Lol. Use your noodle. COSC certification and performance are exclusive. Think about it in other terms...is a car that is subjected to Consumer Reports testing and passes with flying colors BETTER than a car that is not tested? Of course not. By definition you can not compare the two.

I'm an engineer and can discuss this issue to death. Fact is, trust your head not some salesman at a boutique.

[TimeOnHand]

In the past all my Panerai's were well within the COSC limits... even though it said +- 10 sec...

[Glenn422]

no COSC certification does not mean a watch is inaccurate. My 422 runs -/+ 2 secs a day.

[nim]

a lower inhouse test spec (+/-10sec vs +6/-4sec) means movements that are unacceptable by cosc standards would have been acceptable by inhouse standards

it has nothing to do with the test methods, and it doesnt mean the movements tested to a lower specs are ALL inferior, its just a way of accepting MORE movements that are near to the limits of the specifications

the reason for doing so is the product variation is huge, or at least, larger than what it should be compared to its competitors

production variations results in product variations - a relatively young product faces the problem of large product variation - because the processes are not yet fine-tuned, hence to save the 'borderline' performing products, the specifications are often loosen so that the factory doesnt have to overly-reject these as 'bad products'

its a way to salvage and to save costs - tested at a looser specs, some buyers will get movements with COSC-standard while others will get movements out of COSC standards but within inhouse standards, but none will get those that are out of inhouse specs (unless if the QC sucks)

now dont get me started on statistics

[Cru Jones]

nim, i've been following this thread and your same thread on p.com, and it seems like you are not reading what people post and repeating the incorrect information that the boutique personnel provided you. i'm not sure what your angle is or what you're looking to accomplish.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

nim, i've been following this thread and your same thread on p.com, and it seems like you are not reading what people post and repeating the incorrect information that the boutique personnel provided you. i'm not sure what your angle is or what you're looking to accomplish.

Have to agree just words by any person don't always equate to facts and no matter the movement whether its so called in-house built or supplied as a ebauche movement. Like all mechanical movements accuracy comes mainly from how well that movement has been regulated.

Now the European Din standard for chronometers are to a slightly higher standard than the Swiss COSC standard below is the copy of the German Din chronometer certificate for my Dreadnought watch.This was a Timefactors limited edition if I remember just 200 watches were made, that cost then just £400. As you can see +0.4 seconds a day,not bad for a so called humble ETA 2824-T2 movement,less than half a second a day and still the same today after several years of hard wearing.

[Cabaiguan]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

nim, i've been following this thread and your same thread on p.com, and it seems like you are not reading what people post and repeating the incorrect information that the boutique personnel provided you. i'm not sure what your angle is or what you're looking to accomplish.

He's getting the same responses on P'risti. He just likes to hear himself argue.

[nishant]

Originally Posted by cabaiguan

he just likes to hear himself argue.

+1

[nim]

you havent quite learnt your lesson, have you?

Originally Posted by nishant

+1

[padi56]

Originally Posted by nim

you havent quite learnt your lesson, have you?

I have already warned you guys once in another thread below I do not intend to warn you again so now have infraction.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...=289113&page=2