How to tell if a watch has been restored by laser welding

[oligeo]

Hi all,

Juts wanna share this (link to french forum).

As part of his master this guy made a study on how to detect if a watch has been restored by laser welding (or tell if that NOS rare reference is indeed the real deal). Only in French but I may take time to translate.

Basically, as I see it, a very light surface etching that reveal the structural steel modification due to the welding process.

The aim, as described by the author, is to tell if a so called NOS is the real deal given the premium these command.

http://forumamontres.forumactif.com/...-soudure-laser

Again sorry as it is only in French, but I'll take some time to make a translation

Cheers
Oli

[offrdmania]

Im sure it would have to go under ultrasonic testing to look for micro faults where the base metal and filler rod are fused together. This would probably be the only non-destructive way to check. The analysis would only be economical on historical or high dollar pieces IMO.

Its the same method thats currently used when welds are made in pipe fitting, ship building, aircraft manufacturing, etc. to ensure that the penetration is correct and that they meet the required strength for the application.

[oligeo]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

Im sure it would have to go under ultrasonic testing to look for micro faults where the base metal and filler rod are fused together. This would probably be the only non-destructive way to check. The analysis would only be economical on historical or high dollar pieces IMO.

Nope,
To what I read, the described method consist in applying a lightly acid solution on the surface to check. This would reveal the grain modification (due to the heat generated by the weld) under normal light. This, I guess, is helped by the addition of CuSO4 5H2O in the solution.

Here is a screen shot

watch test

So, to cut a long story short, on the last picture, according to the author of the post, the blue stains are the indications of weld repairs.
These stains are only superficial and can be removed by using a cape cod cloth. But, removing the stain does not mean you cannot reproduce the test. As the metallic structure has been altered, it's permanent. So the test can be done again and again and the stain will continue to appear.

Oli

[Vetracer]

Does it matter if the repair is undetectable and has been done to perfection? It wouldn’t put me off.

[Richard Carver]

Does anyone really care? Asking for a friend.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by Vetracer

Does it matter if the repair is undetectable and has been done to perfection? It wouldn’t put me off.

Yes, it matters, to me anyway. It's no longer original.

I'm sure that technology nowadays would allow the exact reproduction of a 6263, for example, and I mean exact. What if it was so good that no one could tell whether it was an original or not? Would that matter? (Rhetorical question.)

[JohnnyNoDate]

you need to READ the watch instead.

If the case is pristine NOS condition while the bezel and crown is pitted with dings and nicks - maybe you need to ask some questions.

If you're contemplating a purchase for a basic submariner - why even stress over this - just move on and find one with proper documentation - easy. And NOONE is going be welding a basic sub-$10k watch.

If you're contemplating a purchase for a 6 figure Daytona - buy the watch with the right documentation. Noone's going to care if the watch is welded if the paperwork holds it down. The next investment buyer isn't going to care either - and the cycle continues. Ignorance is bliss.

If you're a purest - if it's priced reasonably or it stalls on the market for too long, it's probably too good to be true - lol

Pardon the grammar - I'm drunk.

[TheDude]

The obvious question is who in their right mind would permit a watch they’re trying to sell to undergo such a test? If you know it’s really original, you don’t want to risk something happening. If you know it has been laser welded, you probably don’t want to let someone test. Either way the default for all sellers will be to resist such a request.

Maybe auction houses can perform this as an added assurance to garner higher bids with “confirmed original” pieces, but for the regular stuff changing hands I think this isn’t going to be permitted.


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[SubMarine]

Nobody laser welds. It’s a total myth meant to mystify and obfuscate. They only polish and refinish.

[edgware14]

Originally Posted by oligeo

Hi all,

Juts wanna share this (link to french forum).

As part of his master this guy made a study on how to detect if a watch has been restored by laser welding (or tell if that NOS rare reference is indeed the real deal). Only in French but I may take time to translate.

Basically, as I see it, a very light surface etching that reveal the structural steel modification due to the welding process.

The aim, as described by the author, is to tell if a so called NOS is the real deal given the premium these command.

http://forumamontres.forumactif.com/...-soudure-laser

Again sorry as it is only in French, but I'll take some time to make a translation

Cheers
Oli

Jheeze harsh reaction to this.

I found it interesting at least, thanks Oli!

[edgware14]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Does anyone really care? Asking for a friend.

Imagine spending 500k on an almost mint 6241 Daytona, storing it in a safe for 20 years and then agreeing to sell it, only for the buyer to perform this quick test and tell you it's a completely re-built case. Ask your friend if he'd care then

This is likely never going to be an issue for you or 99% of this forum but it's foolish to think that with the prices of vintage watches (and the amount of people offering case welding as a service) that in 10/15 years this won't be an important part of a high end vintage watch sale. Of course, I'm talking about watches with mint/NOS cases here.

[jensonslee]

So, if you were selling online what kind of proof could you show that this test has been done. The stain doesn't appear if it's true NOS.

[Lgear080]

Laser welding can be done at quite low prices - yes even on $10k pieces.

[JustinK]

I think topics like this are important as the average collector is unable to tell if the lugs on their potential purchase have been rebuilt or a dial has been restored.

I would love to hear how the trusted dealers are detecting these restorations before listing perfect watch after perfect watch.

[Racer X]

I see this as very important. If someone is trying to sell you a watch as "new old stock" and attaching a healthy premium for that status, you probably would like to be able to confirm that the watch is in fact NOS and hasn't been laser welded just to look NOS. There is something special about a 40+ year old watch that hasn't ever been worn. Much less so for a "normal" watch that has undergone some "surgery" just to look the part.

[Juhuatai]

Originally Posted by Lgear080

Laser welding can be done at quite low prices - yes even on $10k pieces.

Yep. A complete laser weld and case refinish can be less than 1k.

[roh123]

Those spending om NOS watches know what to look for. If you don’t know; look for honestly worn watches which are still in great condition. Much more to it than just the case even if a redone case often have tells of work.

The NOS market for vintage watches are very small.

[yons78]

Originally Posted by JustinK

I think topics like this are important as the average collector is unable to tell if the lugs on their potential purchase have been rebuilt or a dial has been restored.

I would love to hear how the trusted dealers are detecting these restorations before listing perfect watch after perfect watch.

I concur with this, it's a great way to tell if a watch is sold for what it's not.

[Polpulatu]

Hello everyone,
I am Jean-Dominique Le Meur, it is my graduate work which is published here.

First of all, thank you for your attention and interest in my work.

The NOS watch market is small, it's true, but the watches in a splendid condition with some scratches can be polluted by these restored watches and then worn a few years to have some scratches and traces of life. For me there is a real need for transparency when a watch is restored or not. I am not here to say that this method of restoration is good or bad, but it must be indicated.

Also, the market for used watches in general is affected since some people erase the serial numbers by micro laser welding before repraving numbers corresponding to papers found on the net or simply not declared as stolen ...
If we test the zone of the serial then spots will appear in the case of a modified watch.

Besides, I have plans to adapt it for 904L steel soon and to share everything with you again.

If the watch is not restored there are simply no stains, since the unresolved metal resists the solution and only the restored areas are particularly sensitive to it.

If this method is generalized everyone is a winner since all transactions are made knowingly: We pay the fair price for a watch restored on one side and we can certify the unrestored character of an exceptional watch of the other.

A more complete article will be published on Chronometrophilia, a Swiss watch magazine, for its 2019 winter edition. I invite you to consult it when it comes out to find out more.

Thanks again for reading me,
Sincerely,
Jean-Dominique Le Meur

[Swearengen]

I have had a rare Omega megaquartz 2.4 serviced and laser welded/case refinished for a around GB£1.2k and the service was the bulk of the cost. Its not expensive at all now.

Originally Posted by Juhuatai

Yep. A complete laser weld and case refinish can be less than 1k.

[athom]

Originally Posted by Vetracer

Does it matter if the repair is undetectable and has been done to perfection? It wouldn’t put me off.

Of course it makes a huge difference is the watch is NOS or fakely NOS, for collectors like me but especially for people storing old watches...Unfortunately, I wear my watches so buying NOS is a bit stupid because it costs much more than a very good condition but if you wear it after buying, the NOS is gone...

[athom]

Originally Posted by Racer X

I see this as very important. If someone is trying to sell you a watch as "new old stock" and attaching a healthy premium for that status, you probably would like to be able to confirm that the watch is in fact NOS and hasn't been laser welded just to look NOS. There is something special about a 40+ year old watch that hasn't ever been worn. Much less so for a "normal" watch that has undergone some "surgery" just to look the part.

That is exactly the point !

[Racer X]

Originally Posted by roh123

Those spending om NOS watches know what to look for. If you don’t know; look for honestly worn watches which are still in great condition. Much more to it than just the case even if a redone case often have tells of work.

The NOS market for vintage watches are very small.

Okay, so this research is worthless. Good to know!

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Racer X

Okay, so this research is worthless. Good to know!

No. If accurate it is very useful. Let’s follow the development.

I don’t necessarily like the trends when bad people do bad stuff and suddenly pretty much all great stuff get questioned by people who literally have no clue.

Overall this is not an issue today. At least not for older watches from the 50’s and 60’s. There’s much more to look at to decide if a watch is untouched or not.

[002]

when a 40 year old watch looks sharper than new... That's a good sign it's been touched up. Heck, a reasonable cared for month old watch would'nt be acceptable for most TRF'rs. Instagram and forums are making standards way too high and people now want perfection in high quantities at low price. laser welding supports that. Not sure where I stand on it yet, but it is far cry from a bondo job.

My god! look at picture D. Who would believe that is original.

[002]

Do you need to polish the test stains out afterwards?

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by Polpulatu

Hello everyone,
I am Jean-Dominique Le Meur, i...

Thanks again for reading me,
Sincerely,
Jean-Dominique Le Meur

Very interesting work on your part. I have seen several threads discussing the ramifications of laser welding. IMHO, I do think transparency when selling one of these exceptional time pieces is extremely important. Although, I think laser welding is absolutely fantastic with the ability to return a worn out case to like new condition! That said, I myself don't have the inclination, nor the funds to purchase one of these extreme grail pieces but for the cost, it damn well better be original or at least disclosed as to repairs to the case which remove a portion of that history and authenticity. Well played, sir.

Ha! I just noticed this is your first post since 2016!

[shaunylw]

What will be interesting in laser welding,m is the watches 20 years from now. I foresee “unpolished” watches being sold that have actually been laser welded and worn for 20 years. I think “vintage” watches are going to get much more difficult in the years ahead.


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[Trog]

Excellent subject! I'm impressed there's a non-destructive method to detect built-up cases. Much the same way gold buyers test jewelry.

With that said, should I ever decide to part with my Sub, I will most certainly describe all restoration work.

[1665fan]

Pretty soon 90% will be laser welded and color matched dial/hands. And all blue inserts