Article questioning Patek's reputation

[Tay821]

Originally Posted by Socal to az

Monks in the alps polish every single AP by rubbing watches against the balls of a yak. Its true. I read that on the internet!

Best one yet

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by Exploradori

And do you know that Roger Smith wears an Exp I 214270 Mk1 ?

You mean the one his wife gave him?

[lapince]

Originally Posted by Russell996

You are correct in one aspect, it is a strong view to have with no personal brand experience.

Kind of agree Russell, about the uninspired Nautilus design, I didn't like it for many years, then it got to me, my 2 uninspired Nautilus and my uninspired Aquanaut are a pleasure to wear, maybe it will get to him too. If iconic and 40 years old is uninspired I guess I must have it wrong watvh wise...

Originally Posted by conkers

Interesting contrast in views. They do some things very well and other things less well. In fact much like any other company on the planet! I personally don't covet them any more but that is nothing to do with the watches. Some of their watches are wonderful some less so.

The problem for me is that I love their cheap models, or extremely expensive ones, had I the means I would get a minute repeater with PC, love the new one, 5316p I think, but I think they make great watches, more than 200 in the catalogue? Who else has that? From what I know no one. About value retention sure I might take a small bath selling my 5167R, but don't intend to, perfect sporty RG watch for me, and my uninspired Nautilus are so boring it's almost impossible to get them in Europe, of course if PP decided to go the AP route and develop them it would be different, maybe they'll end up doing that, who knows

Anyways this thread sounds like an old movie from the 80's the the TV replays a few times a year, I am not very good at finding old threads, if someone could find it and post it to put this one to sleep it would be great

[SpeedyTuomas]

In my opinion only a smallish part of their lineup is interesting and those pieces are hard to get or on the high price range. I have been underwhelmed with the newer pieces but do enjoy the older ones eh. 3940, 5035..

[Murcielagoboy2]

The recurrence of this theme, again and again and again, speaks volumes.

So it's not "getting old" - its not the "same as old threads" - You're getting a clearer and clearer indication that their issues are progressively getting worse....

... now to the point where the whingers on TRF aren't the only people complaining. Journo's etc "in the trade" are noticing too.

Take from that what you will.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by texex91

AP and PP have issues...they are watches.

The challenge with PP comes with the service times (as we know).

I agree, the watches themselves are absolutely fine, for both brands, but the service wait times are laughable and even disgraceful if they last far more than 6 months so this issue needs to be addressed, and I think we've had a little empirical evidence here that is has been.

As for introducing new models and new sizes in order to court new buyers, well, this is necessary for survival, and our iworld all around us is changing at such a frentic pace, never seen before. Snobs and ancient buyers will often be quick to accuse a brand of selling out, but then if they don't adapt when these ancients die off so will the brand, so this widow burning is not the way ahead.

[lapince]

Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2

The recurrence of this theme, again and again and again, speaks volumes.

So it's not "getting old" - its not the "same as old threads" - You're getting a clearer and clearer indication that their issues are progressively getting worse....

... now to the point where the whingers on TRF aren't the only people complaining. Journo's etc "in the trade" are noticing too.

Take from that what you will.

Yeah I guess they read TRF as well
There are so many different styles to choose from, sure they probably overproduced with chinese market booming, they said would reduce production if I am not mistaken, let's wait and see, there's not one brand where I like all they do, don't think PP is going under anytime soon.
About journos, most on msm are morons, not sure that's a quality

[Socal to az]

The so called journalists just regurgitate what someone else wrote. Not a single one has an original thought. When I was doing my sis research before buying my car- read 100s of articles on the car. every single one said the same thing- the doors are difficult to close- watch out, you might bump your head.

Idiots!! of course you have to watch your head. But its the damn doors that makes the car!!!

[codecow]

Originally Posted by ap1

If they cut the oversized microfiber I'm out

It is a nice rag!

[jon_jon]

A company has a target audience and Patek Philippe will never be an end all and be all watch company for everyone.

Many people own both Patek and Rolex. However the target audience for these two brands are quite different. I would say the audience for Patek, VC and ALS are more similar, since their strengths lie in dress watches with complications. Although Patek makes some "sporty" watches, it is not their strength and has not been their focus. There are plenty of other brands that do sports watches better than Patek.

Should Patek leave behind their DNA and transform itself into an AP, Hublot or RM? I would say that will kill the brand for sure. Are people looking for the latest trendy sports watches disappointed that Patek doesn't make a watch to their liking? I am quite sure many feel that way and move onto the next watch brand. Patek is aware of this, but they are not going to change their watch DNA to become a sports watch company. However they are adapting their business and watch models to cater to the younger generation. Younger watch enthusiasts want the larger watches and will not be caught dead wearing a 35mm Calatrava that their father wore. That is where the Aquanaut and Nautilus plays the crucial role for first time Patek buyers.

As for service times, it is more significant in certain parts of the world, namely the US and certain parts of Asia. If you drop off your watch in Geneva, I believe the wait time is not that long. Patek has already created a watchmaker school in NYC and will boost their service department for the US market. However that will not solve service times for the next few years. More silicium parts in the movement will mean watches will not need to be serviced as often (theoretically at least, although we shall see).

It is always good to see feedback from those who have considered the brand and decided not to buy into the brand. I am sure Patek appreciates that feedback. However once again to re-iterate, I don't think Patek wants or expects everyone to be their customer. They are not really competing with Rolex in becoming the watch manufacturer for the masses. As for the Grand Exhibition in NYC, they wanted people to understand the history of the company, the work that goes behind manufacturing one of their watches and how it is different from a mass-produced watch.

[Socal to az]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

Should Patek leave behind their DNA and transform itself into an AP, Hublot or RM? I would say that will kill the brand for sure. .

Nothing that Patek has created remotely resembles Hublot, AP or RM. IS this based because they make 42 mm watches?? AP has plenty of 44. So does Hublot. RM makes massive pieces.

Their watches look nothing like the other guys and while their dial designs on a FEW SELECT PIECES are a bit more modern, of the over 200 watches they fabricate, there are plenty of smaller 39mm traditional dials.

Some of these comments are bordering on paranoia.

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by Socal to az

Nothing that Patek has created remotely resembles Hublot, AP or RM. IS this based because they make 42 mm watches?? AP has plenty of 44. So does Hublot. RM makes massive pieces.

Their watches look nothing like the other guys and while their dial designs on a FEW SELECT PIECES are a bit more modern, of the over 200 watches they fabricate, there are plenty of smaller 39mm traditional dials.

Some of these comments are bordering on paranoia.

Maybe I need to re-phrase my post as there may have been some ambiguity in interpretation. But my question was a rhetorical one. My point was that you can't compare Patek to these brand as they have different target audiences.

What I was trying to say is that Patek does not try to compete with these brands, not do they need to. However if people are interested in sports watches from these brands, they will be quite disappointed when they look at Patek since Patek does not make anything comparable. But that is ok since Patek is not trying to be an end all and be all for all watch enthusiasts. They have their target audience and they are not going to go out of their ways to become a sports watch company.

[Socal to az]

Totally agree jon! Well said.

[Tay821]

Originally Posted by Socal to az

Totally agree jon! Well said.

I see what you're saying however I don't think the issue of the OP was 'who Patek' is targeting in terms of their customer. There's always going to be a means for Patek because of who they are and what many WIS know what they represent. However for young people like myself who has only got his toes wet in terms of buying PP it's enough to detract from future purchases. The issue is their qc/service, which again, is making me hesitate pulling the trigger on another and go AP. I realize there's plenty of good instances of service out their for Patek but when people save signifacnt money (like me) for a significant amount of time, the "gamble" might not be worth it until they get things ratcheted up in terms of QC.

Full disclosure I LOVE Patek and think they design beautiful pieces from the sportier ones to the PCs. I'd love to have 10 different ones and the 5712 is my favorite watch on the market. I'm just on the fence right now in terms of the confidence I have in their work.

I went to the exhibition in NYC and had a great time talking to the staff learning about their process, the pieces, and the history. others have said it served to bring awareness to their history of the brand and was a great "show". it may have brought in potential buyers that didn't know about the brand...but also those people don't know about the issues we speak of with qc and service times. Many not agree with this but some asked for thoughts from those who don't own a lot of pateks or are contemplating venturing into the brand.

Sorry for the ramble.

[watchucallit]

Well said But as pointed out --- their repair times and quality issues with some of the repairs is inexcusable

Originally Posted by jon_jon

A company has a target audience and Patek Philippe will never be an end all and be all watch company for everyone.

Many people own both Patek and Rolex. However the target audience for these two brands are quite different. I would say the audience for Patek, VC and ALS are more similar, since their strengths lie in dress watches with complications. Although Patek makes some "sporty" watches, it is not their strength and has not been their focus. There are plenty of other brands that do sports watches better than Patek.

Should Patek leave behind their DNA and transform itself into an AP, Hublot or RM? I would say that will kill the brand for sure. Are people looking for the latest trendy sports watches disappointed that Patek doesn't make a watch to their liking? I am quite sure many feel that way and move onto the next watch brand. Patek is aware of this, but they are not going to change their watch DNA to become a sports watch company. However they are adapting their business and watch models to cater to the younger generation. Younger watch enthusiasts want the larger watches and will not be caught dead wearing a 35mm Calatrava that their father wore. That is where the Aquanaut and Nautilus plays the crucial role for first time Patek buyers.

As for service times, it is more significant in certain parts of the world, namely the US and certain parts of Asia. If you drop off your watch in Geneva, I believe the wait time is not that long. Patek has already created a watchmaker school in NYC and will boost their service department for the US market. However that will not solve service times for the next few years. More silicium parts in the movement will mean watches will not need to be serviced as often (theoretically at least, although we shall see).

It is always good to see feedback from those who have considered the brand and decided not to buy into the brand. I am sure Patek appreciates that feedback. However once again to re-iterate, I don't think Patek wants or expects everyone to be their customer. They are not really competing with Rolex in becoming the watch manufacturer for the masses. As for the Grand Exhibition in NYC, they wanted people to understand the history of the company, the work that goes behind manufacturing one of their watches and how it is different from a mass-produced watch.

[texex91]

[kneedeep]

Having problems with the PP value equation on other than the 5167 and 5711/12 and LEs and small run references. Based on current market pricing, I'm not alone.

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by watchucallit

Well said But as pointed out --- their repair times and quality issues with some of the repairs is inexcusable

Agreed, but if you have a short-term solution for training and hiring watchmakers to do the servicing, I am sure they are open to suggestions.

In the business world, most companies welcome feedback, including constructive criticism. However what they appreciate more are people offering realistic solutions for product and service improvement.

[texex91]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

In the business world, most companies welcome feedback, including constructive criticism. However what they appreciate more are people offering realistic solutions for product and service improvement.

In all respect--that is PP's job not 'peoples' (aka owners) job.

As to 'hiring' watchmakers, there are plenty available for them to hire that will probably exceed their requirements.

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by texex91

In all respect--that is PP's job not 'peoples' (aka owners) job.

As to 'hiring' watchmakers, there are plenty available for them to hire that will probably exceed their requirements.

The 200 that were fired at Richemont as a start....actually as production numbers decrease and they allocate existing spare capacity to service tunes it will improve. I think we have seen some examples of this.

As for the journo / report? Going back to my post....can we really take this as serious journalism when soon after this he has an article on which is the best hipster watch? But then I haven't seen honest journalism where the brands advertise for ages.

Anyway we fetter there....7 pages to go and no one took my bait on Lange...oh well

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by texex91

In all respect--that is PP's job not 'peoples' (aka owners) job.

As to 'hiring' watchmakers, there are plenty available for them to hire that will probably exceed their requirements.

Agreed. I am not suggesting it is the owners job to offer suggestions for Patek to improve their service quality. But if anyone (especially owners) has any suggestion, I am sure Patek would listen. Thierry Stern has openly stated that when he travels around the world, he is looking to hear from his clients (ADs and Patek watch owners) about their likes and dislikes. I remember a few forum members writing here about speaking with TS during the Grand Exhibition private evening reception. TS seemed quite receptive to listening to the feedback of watch owners. I don't know if you can say this about many watch company CEOs, except for some of the smaller independents.

Originally Posted by KarlS

The 200 that were fired at Richemont as a start....actually as production numbers decrease and they allocate existing spare capacity to service tunes it will improve. I think we have seen some examples of this.

As for the journo / report? Going back to my post....can we really take this as serious journalism when soon after this he has an article on which is the best hipster watch? But then I haven't seen honest journalism where the brands advertise for ages.

Anyway we fetter there....7 pages to go and no one took my bait on Lange...oh well

I missed the news about 200 watchmakers at Richemont being fired. Was this in the EU or US?

I just don't see many Americans wanting to go into a field like watchmaking or any of the "old world" jobs. If there are 200 watchmakers in the US without jobs, I would think they can easily get another job in the industry with ease. However I can't see 200 watchmakers from the EU moving to the US, especially with the US becoming more and more anti-immigration. As mentioned earlier, Patek USA seems to suffer the most from service delays and not Patek Geneva.

[Dancing Fire]

Originally Posted by KarlS

Sadly you are correct but we can try......do you know that Dufour wears a Datograph....proof that Lange is better than PP?

Yes, IMO..

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by Dancing Fire

Yes, IMO..

Time to change the avatar I would say!!!

I hope your sticking date is ok. I think you own a Lange and like Dufour so that's what we need to get this thread going

[tom2517]

Service time is long because watchmakers are busy making new watches rather than servicing them. It pays to make new watches for these brands, servicing? Not so much.

For years owners have put up with it, we will see how long this can continue.

At least now we can see a change in tune, I remember this topic has came up before in this forum but at the time the person who complained got flamed. All sorts of excuses were made for Patek, ranging from Pateks are intricate so they require more time to service, if you can't accept it then don't buy it, to if you can afford Patek, you should have other watches to wear in the meantime.

[texex91]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

Agreed. I am not suggesting it is the owners job to offer suggestions for Patek to improve their service quality. But if anyone (especially owners) has any suggestion, I am sure Patek would listen. Thierry Stern has openly stated that when he travels around the world, he is looking to hear from his clients .

I agree that TS 'listens' to clients. However, 'listening' and actually acting upon the suggestions are two different things. This 'service time issue' is not something new and I'm sure he gets an earful at times. What have they really done to change things? It's been years.

Then again, maybe people when they meet him probably just tell him how they love Patek, they are the best, he is a hero, etc, etc...rather than stating what they really feel.

[lapince]

I have 3 bought in 7 months, will send one or two, still have 3 watches to wear, it would bother me if I only had my 5712 and nothing else to wear, not the case

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by tom2517

Service time is long because watchmakers are busy making new watches rather than servicing them. It pays to make new watches for these brands, servicing? Not so much.

For years owners have put up with it, we will see how long this can continue.

At least now we can see a change in tune, I remember this topic has came up before in this forum but at the time the person who complained got flamed. All sorts of excuses were made for Patek, ranging from Pateks are intricate so they require more time to service, if you can't accept it then don't buy it, to if you can afford Patek, you should have other watches to wear in the meantime.

Just out of curiosity, what is the service wait times in Taiwan? I heard it is not bad in HK. Watchmakers in Geneva are busy making new watches, but in the rest of the world, their main focus should be in servicing and repairing existing watches. AFAIK, service time is lowest in Geneva compared to other parts of the world.

[martinr]

To me the real issue with service isn't the long time without your watch but wondering if it will come back fixed properly and in the same pristine condition it was in when you sent it in. That and the lack of communication about what exactly the problem is or was are what bothers me. When a person spends the kind of money you need to spend to own a Patek answers should be forthcoming. tom2517 in post #84 is correct in saying that just accepting it won't solve the problem and acceptance seems to be prevalent, I personally won't send a watch to HSWA, it will go to LA Watchworks even if it's under warranty. I had one come back from HSWA warranty work with scratches and marks, rather than send it back LA Watchworks took care of it in ten days! The watch is perfect now.

[Tay821]

Originally Posted by martinr

To me the real issue with service isn't the long time without your watch but wondering if it will come back fixed properly and in the same pristine condition it was in when you sent it in. That and the lack of communication about what exactly the problem is or was are what bothers me. When a person spends the kind of money you need to spend to own a Patek answers should be forthcoming. tom2517 in post #84 is correct in saying that just accepting it won't solve the problem and acceptance seems to be prevalent, I personally won't send a watch to HSWA, it will go to LA Watchworks even if it's under warranty. I had one come back from HSWA warranty work with scratches and marks, rather than send it back LA Watchworks took care of it in ten days! The watch is perfect now.

Interesting. Is LA Watchworks authorized to repair by Patek or are they just trusted in general? Curious for my benefit when service time comes

[Calatrava r]

Originally Posted by lapince

Pretty happy with my 3 simple sport models, 5711/12, 5167R, I think they have an incredible selection of different types to please anyone. About prices yes they have hugely raised prices, someone tell me if I am wrong but remember the 3712 being launched in 2005 for 13-15k. Not all their watches keep their value as we have seen them n a few models, 5960p grey and 1A being the 2 in my mind, but you can't get it all right. For the 40th editions they were obliged under public opinions and expectations on forums to do something, money grab not sure. Are they perfect? No, QC and service have serious defects compared to other brands, but overall I still think it's a fantastic brand.

Unfortunately, very few PP keep their value anymore. But they are still far better on resale than anything else except Rolex steel.