Relumed PCG 1675 dial

[mailman]

Play nice boys before the thread is closed and infractions are handed out.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Laserflorida

I would not trust anyone else at this point with vintage Rolex

I don't have a dog in this fight, but... you wouldn't trust ANYONE else?

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by swish77

What is still unclear, here or on IG, is whether Michael Morgan disclosed that the GMT was re-lumed when he sold it.

If he disclosed the re-lume when he marketed/sold the watch, he did nothing wrong, regardless of how Stephane advertised the watch when he re-sold it.

If Michael didn't disclose the relume when he marketed/sold the watch, that's really bad, obviously.

Until that part of this story is clarified, I'll reserve judgement.

It seems very clear to me that it was undisclosed. NO ONE thinks there's a problem with selling a relumed watch if it's properly disclosed. This thread wouldn't exist if it was disclosed.

[watchknut]

As the person that brought all of this light, I can share with you this...

My friend sold the watch to MM with a poorly relumed dial a few months back.

I learned last night from a collector in Asia that his friend was offered the watch in August by MM with an enhanced dial and it was not sold.

MM sold the watch to Stephane with what appears to be a story about the swapped dial.

Stephane sold the watch as original to his client.

I saw the posting online, recognized the watch, found pics from text messages with my buddy who sold to MM and posted on IG after asking Stephane for clarity. He claimed as dial
Swap and that my pics were of a different dial. Not true. My pics show the distinct paint loss from 12-1 and a hashmark at 40. It’s the same dial. I post a follow comparison of the dials proving there was no dial swap.

Today it comes to light that Stephane bought from MM in its current state with a much better relume. He has refunded the buyer and getting the watch returned.

Do we know what was shared or disclosed between those 2? Nope.

Do we know that the watch came to MM in one condition and left his possession in another? Yes.

Someone needs to clear their name here. As there is this story about a swapped dial...yet that cannot be true.

Experienced dealers don’t mess up like this and sweep it under the rug.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by watchknut

As the person that brought all of this light, I can share with you this...

My friend sold the watch to MM with a poorly relumed dial a few months back.

I learned last night from a collector in Asia that his friend was offered the watch in August by MM with an enhanced dial and it was not sold.

MM sold the watch to Stephane with what appears to be a story about the swapped dial.

Stephane sold the watch as original to his client.

I saw the posting online, recognized the watch, found pics from text messages with my buddy who sold to MM and posted on IG after asking Stephane for clarity. He claimed as dial
Swap and that my pics were of a different dial. Not true. My pics show the distinct paint loss from 12-1 and a hashmark at 40. It’s the same dial. I post a follow comparison of the dials proving there was no dial swap.

Today it comes to light that Stephane bought from MM in its current state with a much better relume. He has refunded the buyer and getting the watch returned.

Do we know what was shared or disclosed between those 2? Nope.

Do we know that the watch came to MM in one condition and left his possession in another? Yes.

Someone needs to clear their name here. As there is this story about a swapped dial...yet that cannot be true.

Experienced dealers don’t mess up like this and sweep it under the rug.

So the watch was basically laundered. I don't have a great opinion about most of these glamour dealers to begin with, but stories like this just reinforce my feelings about how dirty the business is.

[Juhuatai]

So the story is that Michael sold to Stephane as the dial being swapped instead of it being relumed? That's the big sticking point here? The dials are clearly the same. As philip pointed out on watchknut's post on IG, the paint loss at 1 and the hash at 40 are clear indicators of it being one and the same.

I would like to hear Michael's side of the story before I pass judgement. If he clearly disclosed to Stephane that it was a relume then seems to be a problem on Stephane's part. If he didn't then it's on Michael. Either way someone is in the wrong here.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Juhuatai

Either way someone is in the wrong here.

So you want to know which one will throw the other under the bus. They could both be in the wrong. I doubt anything either one of them says is going to make the situation clear, or make them look good.

[V.lats97nsx]

John aka Springer has been a great asset to this community. Helped me many times and many guys I know. No reason for the bashing of John.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JParm]

This has been a crazy thread...I've only heard good things about Morgan, so hope he can come here and speak for himself.

[Juhuatai]

Originally Posted by Dan S

So you want to know which one will throw the other under the bus. They could both be in the wrong. I doubt anything either one of them says is going to make the situation clear, or make them look good.

I just want to know the truth behind this situation. I’ve never heard of Stephane but Michael is one of the most respected in the business. Surely it’s not unreasonable to expect Michael to address this situation and hear his side of the story. He’s pretty active on TRF.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

This thread wouldn't exist if it was disclosed.

The question is WHO didn’t disclose what? Michael is being accused of something we don’t know is a fact. Maybe he did disclose to all parties he had the dial relumed. Maybe not. We need to hear his side of the story.

Originally Posted by watchknut

Today it comes to light that Stephane bought from MM in its current state with a much better relume.

Do we know what was shared or disclosed between those 2? Nope.

This is the key. We don’t know.

[jjfesq]

You people have too much time on your hands.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[swaini3]

Interesting thread..... Im curious to know how the watch was sold to its last buyer from Stephane as "all original".....

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by jjfesq

You people have too much time on your hands.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Really?? I would love to see your reaction if you paid top $$ for something and then realised it was fake /messed with / not original :)

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by V.lats97nsx

John aka Springer has been a great asset to this community. Helped me many times and many guys I know. No reason for the bashing of John.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So that makes it ok for John to bash others constantly? He doesn’t need others to fight his fights.. John needs to learn some manors and to stop bashing dealers and bashing people. You think it’s right he sends me an unsolicited message out of no where bashing dealers and being condescending to me for no reason?

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by jjfesq

You people have too much time on your hands.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The irony of you commenting on here isn’t lost.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by SubKing

So that makes it ok for John to bash others constantly? He doesn’t need others to fight his fights.. John needs to learn some manors and to stop bashing dealers and bashing people. You think it’s right he sends me an unsolicited message out of no where bashing dealers and being condescending to me for no reason?

nope, but moderators have already weighed in and the rest of this thread is pretty interesting so in the best interest of everyone I think it's best just to drop it and report him in the future if you feel you're personally being harassed and let the mods deal with it. no need to drag it out for the peanut gallery.

interested to see what information turns up about this, would be sad to find out MM tried passing this off.

[jjfesq]

Originally Posted by swaini3

Really?? I would love to see your reaction if you paid top $$ for something and then realised it was fake /messed with / not original :)

Caveat Emptor.
Buy the seller not the watch.
A good seller would take the watch back no questions asked.
Unless you really know what you’re doing don’t buy investment grade vintage, Good chance you’re going to get burned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by jjfesq

Caveat Emptor.
Buy the seller not the watch.
A good seller would take the watch back no questions asked.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

emmmm, I dont think you've read the story... They are both known sellers :) and honestly, no its not just a matter of taking the watch back....

[btinl]

Originally Posted by watchknut

As the person that brought all of this light, I can share with you this...

My friend sold the watch to MM with a poorly relumed dial a few months back.

I learned last night from a collector in Asia that his friend was offered the watch in August by MM with an enhanced dial and it was not sold.

MM sold the watch to Stephane with what appears to be a story about the swapped dial.

Stephane sold the watch as original to his client.

I saw the posting online, recognized the watch, found pics from text messages with my buddy who sold to MM and posted on IG after asking Stephane for clarity. He claimed as dial
Swap and that my pics were of a different dial. Not true. My pics show the distinct paint loss from 12-1 and a hashmark at 40. It’s the same dial. I post a follow comparison of the dials proving there was no dial swap.

Today it comes to light that Stephane bought from MM in its current state with a much better relume. He has refunded the buyer and getting the watch returned.

Do we know what was shared or disclosed between those 2? Nope.

Do we know that the watch came to MM in one condition and left his possession in another? Yes.

Someone needs to clear their name here. As there is this story about a swapped dial...yet that cannot be true.

Experienced dealers don’t mess up like this and sweep it under the rug.

What happened to all the IG posts?

[watchknut]

I archived them.

I did my part and alerted the community, and helped save a collector from getting a watch with issues.

I didn’t like them in my feed...too much negativity.

[Pitbos]

Originally Posted by watchknut

I archived them.

I did my part and alerted the community, and helped save a collector from getting a watch with issues.

I didn’t like them in my feed...too much negativity.

I think you did a great thing by putting it all out there. But it’s much much bigger than just this one sale. If M Morgan and other very well known dealers misrepresented this 1675, then it stands to reason that every watch they’ve ever sold could come under scrutiny and be suspect. I hope lawyers didn’t get involved in this behind the scenes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by watchknut

I archived them.

I did my part and alerted the community, and helped save a collector from getting a watch with issues.

I didn’t like them in my feed...too much negativity.

I can understand that and think you did the right thing all the way around.

Hopefully MM will address this and clear it up.. Hopefully.
Because I have always thought very highly of him.

Thank you for your keen eye on all of this. You saved someone a lot of financial pain.

[jjfesq]

Originally Posted by swaini3

emmmm, I dont think you've read the story... They are both known sellers :) and honestly, no its not just a matter of taking the watch back....

Yeah it is that simple. Your word is the most important thing you have in life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by swaini3

emmmm, I dont think you've read the story... They are both known sellers :) and honestly, no its not just a matter of taking the watch back....

Agreed, taking back the watch just because they got caught is better than denying it and not taking the watch back, but it doesn't really address the main issues of integrity and trust. Apparently, this was not just an innocent mistake.

[BrazenC5]

Originally Posted by jjfesq

Yeah it is that simple. Your word is the most important thing you have in life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's only half according to Tony Montana.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[phillip ridley]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Right now the attention is surprisingly on Michael Morgan who is a member here. I am really very shocked by all of this revolving around worldly watches and MM.. On the flip side, in the past, I have been mislead by a very known dealer and sold something to find out the hands were relumed. It was ultimately taken care of. I think the most important thing here is the buyer of this watch is getting his money back. I think we would all be surprised at what goes on in some circles of “elite collectors and dealers” trust takes years to build and only seconds to break. Such a shame and makes this even more scary for our hobby

Unfortunately, you are correct about some of the "elite dealers" and even more so that it takes many years to build a foundation which can be devastated by one incident, ( Your word is everything).

I also feel the growing lack of interest in buying vintage Rolex's due to situations like this and how the enjoyment is no longer there. This community is small and even so with ones who are willing to purchase watches of this value. Ultimately, this will have an impact on the prices in which collectors pay, IMO.

[Wahlberg]

I really wonder what's going on in the vintage market. Seems like a lof of vintage watches are being touched up the past few years to get that extra grand or few grands (or even more) out of the watch.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure a lot has been going on for decades now but the past few years it's more noticeable? Re-cutting cases, polishing (and overpolishing of new watches as well), re-luming, .... but all at a high(er) level. People have become really skilled at this so if you are able to pull it off and you want to walk that line, you could get away with it. Same with tropical dials and people altering it. That's how you get rich.

[linesiders]

Reserving judgement until more info is out.

Buying the seller is not always the safe bet. There are some excellent sellers that miss things and some (most) that embellish and some spin tales.

[harry in montreal]

What was the asking price of this 1675? I’m just trying to understand the damage monetarily.

I do find it fascinating that everyone here is ok with a relume, so long as it is ‘disclosed’. It’s not okay, because as it filters through the relume absolutely will not get disclosed. The reality is that there is another 1675 with a piece of shite dial floating around that looks great to most people. Damage done