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Old 20 September 2020, 04:18 AM   #91
Glylex
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I see the same sort of thing going on at TW as at HQM. Important issues visible in the pictures but not disclosed in the text.

Meanwhile it appears that some people bypass the issue entirely by having extremely minimal text descriptions. One such is lauded for his reputation based on the experiences of buyers, just as Jacek is.

So now I'm really curious: what seller of vintage Rolex is really hanging it out on the line and describing all the faults of their watches in detail in the text on their public websites?
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Old 20 September 2020, 09:50 AM   #92
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What’s the deal with the Tudor 76100 with a 76000 serial listed as a 1971 And the 94010 with 15000 serial - are they service cases?


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Old 28 September 2020, 09:23 AM   #93
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I see the same sort of thing going on at TW as at HQM. Important issues visible in the pictures but not disclosed in the text.

Meanwhile it appears that some people bypass the issue entirely by having extremely minimal text descriptions. One such is lauded for his reputation based on the experiences of buyers, just as Jacek is.

So now I'm really curious: what seller of vintage Rolex is really hanging it out on the line and describing all the faults of their watches in detail in the text on their public websites?

Given the current atmosphere regarding the threads involving unscrupulous transactions, this thread deserves more attention. I systematically disagree with the idea that TropicalWatch is any way a vindicated version or a more honest independent watch dealer. It is a start-up and independent watch dealer with documented discrepancies against it, documented here on TRF. Providing false, and misleading, descriptions of "collectible" and precious metal watches that are meant to "fly under the radar" of the unknowing purchaser. There is something negative happening in the vintage/pre-owned watch collecting world, and the habits that certain re-sellers have with marketing/describing/selling their watches is trending towards the appalling. I sincerely hope everyone stays safe when parting ways with their hard earned money.
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Old 28 September 2020, 11:44 AM   #94
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The only thing I have noticed on HQ Milton is they seem to use a “template” for their listings especially with 18038’s and 18238’s because often the number of links is incorrectly listed to what is shown in the picture etc.
I do think since Jacek left they have gone down a little but I wouldn’t hesitate to do a deal with them if I was interested in a specific watch they had.
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Old 28 September 2020, 11:50 AM   #95
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As in any market, it's wise to do your own research before making a purchase. Ask as many questions as you need to. A good seller will be willing to answer everything.
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Old 28 September 2020, 11:53 AM   #96
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The only thing I have noticed on HQ Milton is they seem to use a “template” for their listings especially with 18038’s and 18238’s because often the number of links is incorrectly listed to what is shown in the picture etc.
I do think since Jacek left they have gone down a little but I wouldn’t hesitate to do a deal with them if I was interested in a specific watch they had.
I agree with these sentiments and find that often times regarding the vintage pieces they sell, the descriptions are more or less vague IMO. Just seems odd but at the same time the volume of pieces they sell/list may have something to do with that..
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Old 28 September 2020, 01:33 PM   #97
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Inaccurate descriptions - HQ Milton

You can fix that pitting with laser welding.

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Old 28 September 2020, 03:19 PM   #98
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As in any market, it's wise to do your own research before making a purchase. Ask as many questions as you need to. A good seller will be willing to answer everything.
This^^^

I have purchased from HQ and it was a great experience. However I did not ask certain things about whether the bracelet was period correct (not super important for what I bought, but something I wish that I had thought to ask) as well as a few other things. In the intervening time, I've learned the importance of asking questions even when dealing with some of the more reliable sellers. I would consider HQ one of those reliable sellers.
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Old 28 September 2020, 04:58 PM   #99
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You can fix that pitting with laser welding.

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Yeah, you are right! Easy, cheap fix!
Why are we wasting so much time talking about something that can be fixed.

Maybe the add can mention: “excellent case....after you send it for laser welding”.

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Old 28 September 2020, 05:28 PM   #100
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I did not ask certain things about whether the bracelet was period correct (not super important for what I bought, but something I wish that I had thought to ask) as well as a few other things.
Yes. This is a very important lesson as you go along in the hobby. Have a list of stuff to check out, first for yourself, and then to ask the seller if necessary.
The seller and the buyer both have duties of due diligence.
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Old 28 September 2020, 11:00 PM   #101
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I'm starting to feel a little uncomfortable with the bashing of two cherry-picked dealers in this thread. Yes, it's fair to criticize these listings, and I agreed with the OP's opinion.

However, all things considered, I find HQM and TW to be better than the vast majority of vintage dealers, most of whom don't even show comprehensive photos or give detailed descriptions, or even prices. So it's a bit ironic to have a thread dedicated to criticizing them specifically.
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Old 29 September 2020, 01:22 AM   #102
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Description should match the pics.
Exactly! Period end of story. Whats going on in a lot of vintage venues is BS!
ON C24 for some of the higher end vintage pieces the descriptions are inaccurate at best but the pricing seems to be always very accurate. Funny how that works!
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Old 29 September 2020, 07:03 AM   #103
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I systematically disagree with the idea that TropicalWatch is any way a vindicated version or a more honest independent watch dealer. It is a start-up and independent watch dealer with documented discrepancies against it, documented here on TRF.
This is quite the sweeping condemnation of Jacek. Do you have some specific examples you could share? Not sure I've seen these "documented discrepancies."

I'm not saying everything is perfect, but I find in general that Tropical Watches' descriptions are fair, although I'm not looking at every watch for sale, of course.
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Old 29 September 2020, 07:27 AM   #104
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Agree. These are not the bad guys.
I was thinking the exact same thing. Just an oversight. As far as I know, they have a good reputation. I don’t fault them for neglecting to proofread a particular listing. The photos clearly show the condition of the case.
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Old 29 September 2020, 07:40 AM   #105
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I'm gonna take a little break from all this and re-read The Crucible
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Old 29 September 2020, 11:50 AM   #106
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I agree that the buyer of anything should perform their own due diligence. I think the pictures supersede the description- but to use the word “excellent” is deceptive if it was intentional (but don’t think it was / is in most cases). Here is one from another seller described as having an “Excellent vintage condition case”....upon looking at pictures you can see the case is literally bursting at the seams near the caseback. I personally didn’t even read the description as I moved on after seeing it, but was curious how it was described. It could be a piece someone loves and wants to restore, but not excellent by any standard.
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Old 29 September 2020, 12:19 PM   #107
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I agree that the buyer of anything should perform their own due diligence. I think the pictures supersede the description- but to use the word “excellent” is deceptive if it was intentional (but don’t think it was / is in most cases). Here is one from another seller described as having an “Excellent vintage condition case”....upon looking at pictures you can see the case is literally bursting at the seams near the caseback. I personally didn’t even read the description as I moved on after seeing it, but was curious how it was described. It could be a piece someone loves and wants to restore, but not excellent by any standard.
Exactly....everything is excellent these days....it’s in every half ass description out there
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Old 30 September 2020, 04:35 AM   #108
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Gents, “excellent condition” is subjective, means different things to different people and can mean something different to 2 different watches due to age and rarity.
Use your eyes, ask questions, do your own research.
Or find a dealer/seller you trust.
No one is forcing you to buy from anyone.
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Old 30 September 2020, 09:58 AM   #109
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If something is incorrectly advertised, that’s a problem, but saying something is excellent when it may not be is hardly a big deal.

That may be an issue to someone who is blind... I hope blind collectors have someone who advises them on purchases.

What’s the issue with Jacek, I have heard the opposite from guys who know the dirty secrets of some of the unscrupulous sellers. I don’t think HQ would be considered unscrupulous, I just don’t like a ton of their watches, but they have a wide variety of pieces.




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Old 30 September 2020, 08:42 PM   #110
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It’s funny how this seems more important to discuss than the fact a badly relumed watch re-appears the market perfect as original with a more than double price tag..

Descriptions should always be accurate but somehow sellers want to sell. Some watches can’t be described in details explaining obvious flaws. As long as pictures clearly shows flaws and price is set accordingly I don’t have a big issues with it. Mentioning every single flaw will make bad, or even average, watches difficult to sell. A big issue to some is a minor issue for others.

It’s a completely different story when big issues aren’t disclosed and can’t be identified through pictures. As in the Stephane Medam and Michael Morgan story.
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Old 30 September 2020, 11:31 PM   #111
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It’s funny how this seems more important to discuss than the fact a badly relumed watch re-appears the market perfect as original with a more than double price tag..

It’s a completely different story when big issues aren’t disclosed and can’t be identified through pictures. As in the Stephane Medam and Michael Morgan story.

Did they sell a relumed watch?



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Old 30 September 2020, 11:44 PM   #112
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I take what dealers write in the description with a grain of salt. Always ask for lots of pictures, and ask questions!
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Old 30 September 2020, 11:55 PM   #113
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Complete descriptions are important and the pictures should honestly represent the condition of the piece. If the pictures can't represent the condition accurately, then any known issues should be commented on and disclosed to any prospective buyer. It's possible for some things to be missed and the dealers with better reputations will handle those concerns professionally and unwind the deal quickly. The issue I have is when serious and known damage/repair is not disclosed and disputes are handled unprofessionally. Both of these occur with some dealer(s) out there with a fan base among collectors based on my personal experience.

Regarding the much more current OCC dial thread, I do think that is of much greater interest and surprised there hasn't been more on that topic.
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Old 1 October 2020, 12:15 AM   #114
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It’s funny how this seems more important to discuss than the fact a badly relumed watch re-appears the market perfect as original with a more than double price tag..

Descriptions should always be accurate but somehow sellers want to sell. Some watches can’t be described in details explaining obvious flaws. As long as pictures clearly shows flaws and price is set accordingly I don’t have a big issues with it. Mentioning every single flaw will make bad, or even average, watches difficult to sell. A big issue to some is a minor issue for others.

It’s a completely different story when big issues aren’t disclosed and can’t be identified through pictures. As in the Stephane Medam and Michael Morgan story.
Descriptions accurately delineate and outline the condition of a watch. Period.

Descriptions are not to hide the condition of a watch, in order to easily sell it.
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Old 1 October 2020, 01:40 AM   #115
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Descriptions accurately delineate and outline the condition of a watch. Period.

Descriptions are not to hide the condition of a watch, in order to easily sell it.
So how do we sell an average looking watch even if it is decently priced? The below watch I describe is a typical TRF piece that people love.

”Polished case that lost some of it’s original form. Dial has tool marks and some inperfections with slightly dirty lume. Hands does not match perfectly and could be later. Insert and bracelet are service parts added at a later time. Engravings between the lugs are worn but still visible and the caseback is matching while having some corossion.”

Any takers? Perfect watches are rarely seen and while some see this watch as what I describe others see it as a beautiful vintage piece. Most important is that pics show the watch for what it is. If newbies can’t see how it is polished, the small inperfections on the dial, the later hands and bracelet etc. So be it. It can’t be a crime to sell a piece most would love. As long as you don’t fail to show imperfections and call it unpolished etc while it’s not. Something excellent for you could be average to me. And vice versa.

If you describe a watch as I did above very few would pull the trigger. Even if priced accordingly. Selling average pieces, which is the most common condition, is not a crime.
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Old 1 October 2020, 01:49 AM   #116
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I agree this thread is silly compared to the other one.



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Old 1 October 2020, 01:59 AM   #117
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So how do we sell an average looking watch even if it is decently priced? The below watch I describe is a typical TRF piece that people love.

”Polished case that lost some of it’s original form. Dial has tool marks and some inperfections with slightly dirty lume. Hands does not match perfectly and could be later. Insert and bracelet are service parts added at a later time. Engravings between the lugs are worn but still visible and the caseback is matching while having some corossion.”

Any takers? Perfect watches are rarely seen and while some see this watch as what I describe others see it as a beautiful vintage piece. Most important is that pics show the watch for what it is. If newbies can’t see how it is polished, the small inperfections on the dial, the later hands and bracelet etc. So be it. It can’t be a crime to sell a piece most would love. As long as you don’t fail to show imperfections and call it unpolished etc while it’s not. Something excellent for you could be average to me. And vice versa.

If you describe a watch as I did above very few would pull the trigger. Even if priced accordingly. Selling average pieces, which is the most common condition, is not a crime.
"Rolex 1005 Oyster Perpetual Two Tone silver Dial Watch. Condition is Pre-owned. Light spotting on dial, bracelet is stretched almost to failure. Comes with 2 removable links. Keeps good time. Authentic, sold as is. Ask any questions prior to bidding"


Honesty is the best policy lol that was my last listing. Sold quickly with no problems. you don't have to explain everything that's wrong with a watch, just take decent pictures, state any major flaws, and if someone has any other questions let them ask.
I don't think it's a sellers job to point out every flaw, but advertising something as a great daily piece without worrying about adversely affecting value is a great way to take a negative and turn it into a positive. Advertising an average watch as Excellence reflects poorly on reputation in any case.
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Old 1 October 2020, 02:05 AM   #118
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"Rolex 1005 Oyster Perpetual Two Tone silver Dial Watch. Condition is Pre-owned. Light spotting on dial, bracelet is stretched almost to failure. Comes with 2 removable links. Keeps good time. Authentic, sold as is. Ask any questions prior to bidding"


Honesty is the best policy lol that was my last listing. Sold quickly with no problems. you don't have to explain everything that's wrong with a watch, just take decent pictures, state any major flaws, and if someone has any other questions let them ask.
I don't think it's a sellers job to point out every flaw, but advertising something as a great daily piece without worrying about adversely affecting value is a great way to take a negative and turn it into a positive. Advertising an average watch as Excellence reflects poorly on reputation in any case.
Perfect lume? No corrosion on the hands? Service crystal? Show us some pictures and we could probably dissect it further. ;)

And I am guessing it was an auction as you mentioned bidding. Then things usually sell.
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Old 1 October 2020, 02:14 AM   #119
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Descriptions accurately delineate and outline the condition of a watch. Period.



Descriptions are not to hide the condition of a watch, in order to easily sell it.

Well, it is a little more involved. Legally, a sales listing is simply an offer. The description may not include all the detail some would like. Nothing fraudulent in that so long as there are no lies in it.

The buyer has a responsibility to investigate and ask questions. The buyer deserves honest answers.

But a description doesn’t have to disadvantage the seller before a prospective buyer has appeared.

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The below watch I describe is a typical TRF piece that people love.

”Polished case that lost some of it’s original form. Dial has tool marks and some inperfections with slightly dirty lume. Hands does not match perfectly and could be later. Insert and bracelet are service parts added at a later time. Engravings between the lugs are worn but still visible and the caseback is matching while having some corossion.”

Good point. And a less detailed listing of the same watch might go like this...

“Up for sale is a watch in good condition considering its rarity and age. Some faint exterior marks on it, see the pictures for details and ask any questions you have. Watch is running strong.”

A certain competency and capacity on the part of the buyer is expected. The seller isn’t a teacher.

Thus, caveat emptor plays an especially important role in buying vintage watches.


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Old 1 October 2020, 02:32 AM   #120
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Perfect lume?nope... a No corrosion on the hands?there's some speckling Service crystal?
it's a 50 year old watch of course
Show us some pictures and we could probably dissect it further. ;)

And I am guessing it was an auction as you mentioned bidding. Then things usually sell.

I put it up for BIN w/ Best offer. That way I didn't get a million people messaging me asking what's the lowest i'd take. and if they made an offer it was as good as a sale.


I never made any statements about the watches condition in any positive manner. Just described the major flaws, and if someone wants to be nit picky, they can ask me first, which really should just be a confirmation of their own assessment from my pictures.

My case didn't have any pitting on it, but there's no way I ever would've described it as Excellent. I might've used the word Decent, but again, it's a 50 year old watch with scratches. Would've looked excellent after a polish IMO but that's all subjective, most buyers would say a polish damages a watches value.

when you're a well known vintage dealer who's considered a specialist; I think you owe it to your customers to either be completely transparent or at minimum non biased towards your product when selling it. I guarantee if the person selling him that watch described the case as excellent his first retort would be it's pitted and a tough sell. Like you said, there's far bigger description problems in the vintage market, but I don't think that's any reason to let other false descriptions slide
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