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Old 8 December 2013, 08:40 PM   #1
michel33
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The Tudor Black-Bay ancestor

Hello fellow WiS, I'm now the proud owner of the Black-Bay ancestor, a 94010 Submariner originally issued with this stunning dial/hands combo for only one year, every known examples throughout the world (a very few watches) being in the 8.8/beginning of the 8.9XXX serial range number.


This very small 94010 batch is now well documented in the "Tudor Anthology Book" edited by Mondani as you can see hereafter.

I remember that when the first examples emerged, from different world areas, many of us were skeptical about this dial/hands combo on a 94010 Submariner.

Many thought that this could only be a swap between dials/hands done by watchmakers during the watch services.

However, too many facts were conclusive:

- The serial range of these specific examples, as said above.

- But above all, the fact that this specific dial with rectangular stick markers at 3, 6 and 9 O'clock was only fitted on the previous Tudor Submariner model, the 7016 Submariner.
If the 94010 Submariner also featured from 1980 to 1983 a round markers dial, it was with triangular 3, 6 and 9 markers only (see picture).

-And the ultimate proof is that these two dials are not interchangeable at all, as some people suggested, for the simple reason that the two models feature different ETA movements (2776 ETA for the 94010 Submariner and the 2483 ETA for the 7016 Submariner), which require that the feet of the dial are not positioned at the same place for each model!!!

Thus it is impossible to fit a 7016 (3, 6 and 9 "stick markers") dial instead of a Snowflake 94010 dial as previously envisaged by some skeptical fellows.
No need to say that the specific 7016 Submariner round markers (that was furthermore discontinued) cannot have been modified by local watchmakers throughout the world for watches that are all in the same serial number range….. (And as the regular triangular 3,6 9 stick markers round dial was easily available…).

- Another piece of evidence came from a Canadian Navy member who found four Tudor issued Tudor Submariners (though not engraved) in an old box in his naval base, one of them being a round markers dial/Snowflake hands 94010 Submariner once again in the same serial number range.

My new baby:


The article on this very limited issued Tudor 94040 Sub in the "Tudor Anthology Book":


The Canadian Navy 94010 round markers dial/Snowflake hands:


The specific triangular 3, 6, 9 stick markers of the 94010 round dial:
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Old 8 December 2013, 08:51 PM   #2
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The 94010s are really interesting to me
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Old 9 December 2013, 01:22 AM   #3
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Interesting pick up.
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Old 9 December 2013, 01:36 AM   #4
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very interesting chronology on those. m
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Old 9 December 2013, 01:53 AM   #5
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Nice!! Congrats!
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Old 9 December 2013, 02:45 AM   #6
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cool, enjoy!
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Old 9 December 2013, 02:57 AM   #7
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Congrats, incredible pick up I love it! Thanks for the research it's nice to know these can't be easily created by swapping dials. Coincidentally I won an auction for a blue 94010 last night with the lollipop hour hand, one more variation.
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Old 9 December 2013, 06:20 AM   #8
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Holy moly...that's a beauty. Congrats. I have never seen one before.
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Old 9 December 2013, 06:45 AM   #9
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Very cool pick upand interesting info on the older Tudor Subs, thank you
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Old 9 December 2013, 07:42 AM   #10
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Awesome watch. Thanks so much for sharing. Can you post a few more pictures??
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Old 9 December 2013, 08:48 AM   #11
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so that bezel insert is original or no?
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Old 9 December 2013, 08:57 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason71 View Post
awesome watch. Thanks so much for sharing. Can you post a few more pictures??
+1
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Old 9 December 2013, 10:12 AM   #13
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You are one lucky guy to find that piece. I heard they got the black bay bezel color from vintage tudor subs that were in a museum. Big congratulations. My snowflake says hello.
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Old 9 December 2013, 10:20 AM   #14
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http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/2012/3/...2r-full-s.html


Here's the article that talked about where they got the unique color for the black bay.
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Old 9 December 2013, 03:34 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason71 View Post
Awesome watch. Thanks so much for sharing. Can you post a few more pictures??

A close up of the dial:



And some blurry and pixilated pictures from my crappy phone, sorry, I'm not at home and I don't have my digital camera.

Everything is original to the watch, except the (genuine) Rolex insert that is one of mine that features a "chocolate" patina that is eerily reminiscent of the Tudor Black-Bay insert color imho (which was by the way inspired by the patina of Tudor ancient inserts).












I checked the serial number of the Canadian Navy 94010 Tudor, it is only 89 watches ahead of mine… Not far away…


A canadian member of the Military Watch Forum, Lambstew, did some research about the Canadian Navy issued Tudor Submariners, I quote him:



Quote:
Originally Posted by lambstew View Post
The issued Canadian Tudor submariners were not property marked. I've had 2 of these over the years and still retain one with the partially erased owner's rank & name engraved into the back (PO Cumberland)..(case serial number is found between the lugs)..

I've been in touch with Rolex Canada (Toronto) and spoken with the head person there about these and he confirmed for me that these were unmarked, the case serial number being the thing that was likely recorded, a practice not unlike issued Vietnam era and just post war US UDT/Navy Seal Tudor submariners.

Rolex recalls at least 3-4 orders of these being placed from the late 1970s-1990's..

Cheers,

Konrad
Quote:
Originally Posted by lambstew View Post
..now if we could only motivate Rolex Canada to go through their records and give us exact order numbers/dates and the serial numbers..At the time he was unwilling to go to the trouble but admitted the information was still on hand..

So the info is there, but Tudor may not be prepared to disclose the Canadian Navy issued Tudor Submariners serial numbers publicly...


But why in the world would I believe my Tudor Sub may have a military provenance you may say???

Well, among other things, the serial number first, as said above, that is very close to the issued Canadian Navy 94010 round dial markers/Snowflake hand that was discovered lately (January 2013) in a naval basis.

But above all, a very strange and funny characteristic of mine, that caught the attention of the previous owners,who first made this proposal.

-We often refer to these watches by the "Tool-watch" nickname, meaning they were perfectly suited to intensive use.

But in the case of my watch, one of the previous owner really and literally used the watch as a tool!!!

More precisely, he used it as a……. HAMMER

As you can see in the pictures above, the watch is in terrific shape and beautifully preserved.

But when you look at the case back, you can clearly see the marks left by the nails and the case back center deformation, due to the impacts…..

Who on Earth would use a watch as a hammer to hit nails (or whatever piece of metal)???? These Tudor watches were not as expensive as they are nowadays, but still, they were expensive sport watches at that time compared to other brands…. And I have trouble seeing a civilian doing such a thing…..

I have another mint 94010 caseback, but finally I like these marks, I think they are worth any engraved case back, it is part of the watch history, and I cherish the idea that my watch was a "tool watch" for real.


Now that it has retired, this watch deserves a quiet and peaceful life on my wrist.

The "hammer head" caseback, picture taken by one of the previous owners, Krabong, from the "Time Keeper Forum". He was one of the first to investigate seriously about this dial/hands configuration, thanks to him:
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Old 11 December 2013, 08:14 AM   #16
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Fascinating research and story. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 11 December 2013, 09:18 AM   #17
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i love hearing about the history of a watch. I was happy to buy my snowflake from the original owner so i was able to get a lot of great info about it.
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Old 11 December 2013, 11:20 AM   #18
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....Loving 'It'....!!
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Old 12 December 2013, 07:58 PM   #19
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Gorgeous watch! Enjoy!

I love the combination of that faded insert with the patina of the dial and hands.

Best! Glenn
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Old 12 December 2013, 08:16 PM   #20
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Fascinating, thanks for sharing.
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Old 13 December 2013, 04:40 AM   #21
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Pretty sweet watch you have there
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Old 13 December 2013, 06:05 AM   #22
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Good read...thanks for sharing!!
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Old 14 December 2013, 05:48 AM   #23
michel33
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I listed only 6 watches on the Internet at the moment in the past recent years.

This does not mean that rarity goes hand in hand with elevated crazy prices, fortunately for me.

The thing is that one of the six I heard of (for now) is the property of a friend who belongs to the same french forum as me. I just find it incredible…. Same serial number range of course.
I hope this post will allow for the emergence of others in the future on TRF and elsewhere.

This unheralded 94010 model is really endearing, combining a gorgeous Rolex  Submariner type dial (  round an stick rectangular markers, like the previous 7016) with large readable Snowflake hands.

Two sisters brought together by fate in France:




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Old 14 December 2013, 05:55 AM   #24
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awesome twosome !^^!
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Old 14 December 2013, 08:42 AM   #25
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superbe montre michel
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Old 14 December 2013, 09:15 AM   #26
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Wow! Congrats on great references
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Old 30 August 2014, 01:06 PM   #27
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Hi guys, some more info I'd like to share with you about this watch.

I wanted to verify if the watch had been sold in North America, so I opened it to check the movement's jewel numbers.

Why? because during my research, I found that in order to protect US watch manufacturers, "The USA had an import tax for jewels Any count above 17 jewels was taxed heavily so you'll see many US caliber versions have 17 jewels (and are marked unadjusted even though they were adjusted because there was a tax on that too). The extra jewels were usually in the automatic winding system or some other extra function".(I quote this great explanation that comes from the Omegaforums.net member, "Ulackfocus").

For example, as an entry level diving watch, the 5513 Submariners sold in the North American countries had a 17 Jewels 1520 movement, but the 1680 and the 1665 kept their 26 jewels movements as they were sold as high end diving watches.

The Tudor 9401 2776 ETA, is originally a 25 jewels movement.

And yes, my watch features a 17 "unadjusted" jewels 2776 ETA movement, that proves it had been sold in North America.

I join hereafter a picture of another 9401 round markers/snowflake hands that features an ETA 2776 "north american" unadjusted 17 jewels movement, as you can see it engraved.  




And here is the summary table of Tudor Submariners movements featuring the "regular" jewels number:

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Old 8 November 2014, 07:20 PM   #28
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Hello guys, I'm going to update this thread about round marker snowflake subs and add mine to your count.
It has the same serial number range as mine is 887XXX.
I found a beautiful example that needed little repair. I sent it to Mr Dominique Wieland for an overhaul. The only things that got replaced were the crystal, crown and tube. I left the case unpolished. I also have the original box, receipt and warranty document.
I am very happy with this and it's by far my favorite Snowflake sub I've owned. And so far it's +3 seconds/7 days since serviced.

Before service-



Movement, it's 25 rubies-



And after-






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Old 9 November 2014, 02:12 AM   #29
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That looks very nice, congrats
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Old 9 November 2014, 02:30 AM   #30
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That's a beauty, Ben.
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