Geneva Seal Vs. Patek Seal?

[ash20]

Regardless of seal, after the first service they all fall under the PP seal quality....therefore it doesn't matter IMO

[subtona]

Perhaps the Geneva seal will come to represent pre Thierry Patek, I could see some impact on collectibility depending on how Thierry manages the company.

On a personal note I liked a third party being involved in the process, even if they were under Pateks thumb.

[dom007]

Originally Posted by slashd0t

I personally couldn't care less..

This.

[GeraldGentaFan]

Have opinions evolved on this topic?

Is the 5711 geneva seal more or less valuable that PP seal in your opinions?

[cascavel]

This is the funniest post. If you were discussing a Rolex Submariner or Daytona the slightest variation, whether it was the flat 4 16610LV or the floating Cosmograph 16520, or the Rail Dial 1665 Sea Dweller vs. the regular Great White, could make huge differences in the price.
Granted, those are dial side, but it seems that with Patek, minor variations like this seal issue are met with a shrug.
Personally, I think that the Geneva seal 5711 should be worth 50% more than the PP seal example of the same reference, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.

[GeraldGentaFan]

Exactly, fully agree with you. That why I revived this discussion. I would not be surprised if some would pay more for a recent PP seal than an older geneva seal in similar condition. With time, I would expect a price difference to develop, but the market seems oblivious for now.

[Calatrava r]

I do not really care but if I did, I would want an outside agency certifying everything.

[kunlun]

The Geneva Seal requires hand finishing.

Patek no longer hand-finishes its lower and mid-level watches, as proven by machine marks (vertical lines) on the anglage of these watches. There is a thread on this forum with pictures showing these non-hand finished movements.

If that matters, then it absolutely matters. If it doesn't (the movements still look great done by machine, you can really only tell with a loupe), then it doesn't matter.

That's the story, or part of it.

[Justindo]

Originally Posted by Tony64

I believe it was in 2009 when Patek made the change from the Geneva Seal to their own.
By dropping the Geneva Seal, they dispensed with any independent verification of quality. The Geneva Seal Bureau and COSC offer independent validation of quality claims; there is no such assurance from Patek.

Now the folks at Patek will say that their own designated seal was necesary to establish a higher standard than that of Geneva and the COSC. Decide for yourself, but in general I'd prefer independent verification.

Finally, and perhaps anecdotal and irrelevant, we do seem to read about quality control issues with some frequency on this forum and others. Impossible to know if that incidence has increased, decreased, or remained unchanged wih the arrival of a new 'standard'.

Interesting thread by the OP, and food for thought...

I don't think most of Patek's watches would legitimately earn the Geneva Seal these days due to an almost complete lack of hand finishing on most models. I don't think it's an accident that they eliminated the seal and production numbers started going way up while quality generally went down.

Originally Posted by martinr

Makes no difference to me. Does anyone know what other brands use the Geneva seal?

Most of Vacheron's watches have the Geneva Seal and these days are finished better than most Pateks.

Originally Posted by Tony64

I'll concede that neither the Geneva, PP or COSC standards are an absolute measure of quality, but there's a larger, philosophical issue here as well.

Why does Patek feel the need for their own quality seal in the first place? After all, for a company that professes such a commitment to producing quality timepieces and with relatively low production numbers, shouldn't they just be doing this inspection anyway? Anything that doesn't pass doesn't get the ultimate seal- the name Patek Phillipe on the dial.

To me the Geneva seal is about almost 150 years of a tradition of excellence. For those who appreciate such things, that conveys a value and sense of pride. Is it a garrantee that your timepiece is better than someone else's? Of course not, but for a community of collectors so steeped in tradition, I'm surprised by the indifferent response of so many.

I'll take my Geneva seal and all that it does or doesn't represent. It's a mark after all nothing more, but I'll not understand or value the PP seal anymore than the name on the dial. If it says Patek Philippe that should be good enough.
Remind me again why we need their special seal?

I agree with this.

[ts3]

Originally Posted by Tony64

I'll concede that neither the Geneva, PP or COSC standards are an absolute measure of quality, but there's a larger, philosophical issue here as well.

Why does Patek feel the need for their own quality seal in the first place? After all, for a company that professes such a commitment to producing quality timepieces and with relatively low production numbers, shouldn't they just be doing this inspection anyway? Anything that doesn't pass doesn't get the ultimate seal- the name Patek Phillipe on the dial.

To me the Geneva seal is about almost 150 years of a tradition of excellence. For those who appreciate such things, that conveys a value and sense of pride. Is it a garrantee that your timepiece is better than someone else's? Of course not, but for a community of collectors so steeped in tradition, I'm surprised by the indifferent response of so many.

I'll take my Geneva seal and all that it does or doesn't represent. It's a mark after all nothing more, but I'll not understand or value the PP seal anymore than the name on the dial. If it says Patek Philippe that should be good enough.
Remind me again why we need their special seal?

I agree with this as well and would definitely prefer a Geneva-seal 5711 w screws in the bracelet over my Patek-seal 5711. The issue is that I had to buy new from the AD as I cannot afford going pre-owned...

I could obviously swap my fairly recent 5711 into a pre 2010 piece but I would lose my name on the paperwork which I tend to value as well.

[onnomon]

I didn't think the Geneva seal has anything to do with reliability and service recall rate but is simply a set of measures in the finishing quality and timing rate results. Timing rate results may give a secondary indication of long-term reliability simply because it says "this mechanism is working well" and for that, mechanical tolerances should be tighter. correct me if i'm off the mark.

Beyond that- because we're even having this discussion already means that, as collectors, we're tuned into the fine details of the hallmark and just like a "red-line" sub commands a premium so the potential lies for this hallmark. Given all things equal I believe there is a slight edge to the Geneva seal because all that was said before (history, 3rd party, etc). And I say, slight. In the end i'm really looking for the nicest model at the best price and don't think too much about the seal when buying. Of course, I have a 5110 with a Geneva mark so I do think about it.

[Russell996]

Since the Patek seal goes above and beyond the Geneva seal the issues being discussed are much more closely aligned with an individuals view on whether independent verification is preferable to in house. Personally I am very happy with either and can say under a powerful loupe the 240 movements in my Geneva seal piece and my Patek seal piece appear identical.

The quality of finishing does definitely improve as you go up to the high grand complications.

[JohnTz]

Geneva seal forces hand finishing as was pointed out already. That matters to me and that is why I would prefer Geneva seal if possible, but clearly with the modern watches you get what you get and you don't get upset ;)

[Slider817]

Glad to see this thread resarected. Still enjoying my Geneva seal 5146g slate dial.

[enjoythemusic]

Geneva seal, though keep in mind this is also back in time when Patek seemed to be providing more bridges to really show off the hand-work. Miss those days with Francine, David... the nice classic styling of previous NYC office too.

Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.

[startrolexendrolex]

Geneva seal for me. The good o days

Sent from my SM-G892U using Tapatalk

[mineral]

I can take both anytime if have chance to acquire them. Best is that they are sealed in Patek travel box :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thomaspp]

Geneva if you can pick


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gunhose]

When any manufacturer does its own quality control your going to inferior product. Though My father had a tool and die company for 50 years. He WAS quality control nothing left his shop unless it was the best he could make!!! But the question is was his best as good as other tool and die companies??

[Passionata]

PP seal a class of their own

[torrente]

As principle I prefer Geneva seal, but it would not be a deal breaker and I would not pay much more for it.

[d11n]

100% Patek seal.

1. Patek has committed to meeting all the Geneva standards and then exceeding them...the 29-535 is a great example in the 5170, 5172, and the spectacular 5370.

2. Patek's support of the Geneva seal was a double edge sword as when other manufacturers adopted the seal they gained Patek's halo. Cartier specifically built a go to market plan around this.

For me it comes down to ... if you don't trust Patek to meet and focus on exceeding the Geneva standard then don't extend that trust to buy their watch.

[Russell996]

Lange seem to do pretty well without the Geneva Seal.

[GreenLantern]

I don't care, but I will admit, if one is to use a "seal" I'd rather it be one granted by a third party. That's the whole point behind it.

Patek can do away with the Patek seal and it won't make a difference because the Patek seal just means "made by Patek" to me.

[galtinuk]

I wonder what the math looks like if you take the total number of watchmakers Patek has working on new watches. Then calculate the net hours worked on new watches then divide by number of watches produced. Can't be that many hours per watch...


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by galtinuk

I wonder what the math looks like if you take the total number of watchmakers Patek has working on new watches. Then calculate the net hours worked on new watches then divide by number of watches produced. Can't be that many hours per watch...


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

The time taken will vary drastically, anything from the high grand comps department is finished to a higher standard and the time taken increases exponentially.

[galtinuk]

100%, which means the time spent on the "normal" Patek 3 handers is probably very very small....

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Daytonaman799]

I prefer the Geneva seal bec it was a third party judging. I also like the older model nautiluses bec they screws and not pins. However, there are nautiluses with screws that are not Geneva seals.

[GreenLantern]

Whose idea was it to use pins anyway?

That's a very barbarian method.