Can wire(or ACH) transfers bounce back and go back to sender's account?

[bakaneul]

Hello forum,

I bought a TT Bluesy from a very reputable seller here at TRF last Thursday and the next day on Friday, we have agreed to return for a full refund.

Since it was a Memorial weekend, we both agreed to return the package back on Tuesday which I did and the package was successfully delivered on Wednesday morning.

Seller texted me who he should write check payable to and I said I would prefer wire transfer back to my BoA Savings account if he did not mind which was also the original method of payment when I purchased his TT Bluesy at first.

He said no problem and I texted him with my bank wire info and he said he will send it shortly.

About an hour later(1pm) I texted him saying please let me know when you initiate wire transfer so I can keep checking with my bank and he texted me back saying he has already sent the info to his bookkeeper and told me that the fund should be received by tomorrow morning(Thursday).

So on Thursday morning at 10:30, I still do not see the fund in my Savings account and started to get a little frustrated. I called BoA and spoke to three customer reps and they all said the fund should have received IF it was wired before BoA wire processing cutoff time which is 5pm.

I texted the seller right after conversations with BoA and asked for a transaction reference number and he texted me with a brief summary of transfer that says completed with date, my name and my bank with a few sets of numbers that I do not know what they were and told me the fund has already taken out from his account.

I had no reason to question his word after seeing the summary of transfer and I decided to wait a little more despite of my bank telling there looks to be something going on. The seller tells me wires are not instant, fed has to release it and my bank has to process it. If I be patient, it may hit later today.

Later that evening, I called BoA two more times asking what would be the issue and they all told me is that if BoA denied or reject any incoming wire transfers for any reason they could see them through their system but they could not see anything. I also learned that BoA does not accept ACH transfers while we had conversations which they also checked for me if the seller sent it that way but nothing was found.

So I woke up today morning, which is Friday, hoping the fund came into my Savings account but no.

I still think he is a legitimate seller(he also owns a watch store) and I am pretty certain that he has initiated the fund. My question is, what would be the issue that is causing this situation? Could fund go to a random person if his bookkeeper accidently made a typo when typing in my account number? Is it possible the fund will go back to seller's account for whatever reason? If so, how long will it take to go back to his account? Seller told me he is going to talk to his bookkeeper and trace the wire with his bank today.

This is my first incoming wire transfer and I honestly have no idea how to prepare for it if it goes sideways.. At the same time, I really really don't feel good feeling like I am bothering this seller too much.

Any recommendations would be appreciated.


Daniel

[Humble michael]

If it were me ,I would tell the seller enough! Send me a check overnight today!

[CorradoBrit]

Call the sending bank. Make sure the the transaction/wire details are legit. No point calling BofA if they can't trace it in their system. If you ask for a check make sure its not a personal check. Then call bank and make sure the check number is genuine. At this point sounds suspicious.

[Knappo 1307]

Why did you want to return the watch? Just a secondary question..

[CorradoBrit]

Only 2tone bluesy I see sold on Thurs on TRF was picked up in person. Can you link your listing?

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by bakaneul

Can wire(or ACH) transfers bounce back and go back to sender's account?

Yes

If the receiving bank's info is not correct. Basically a wire sent through the FED will be available the next business day.

[bakaneul]

Thank you all for thoughtful comments.

Update

It is almost certain that the seller's bookkeeper missed last four digits of my account number when filed a wire info which now the fund is being held at BoA Corporate desperately looking for his father.

Will see how this turn out.

[bakaneul]

Another Update

It turns out the seller transferred fund through ACH, which requires different routing number from me. It looks like the fund will go back to his account following Monday.

[bakaneul]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

Why did you want to return the watch? Just a secondary question..

My overall expectation for condition of the watch was a bit higher than he was..

[bakaneul]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

Call the sending bank. Make sure the the transaction/wire details are legit. No point calling BofA if they can't trace it in their system. If you ask for a check make sure its not a personal check. Then call bank and make sure the check number is genuine. At this point sounds suspicious.

Seller's bank is not willing to talk to me because I'm not their client. I have tried speaking to them two times trying to trace it but no luck.

[bakaneul]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

Only 2tone bluesy I see sold on Thurs on TRF was picked up in person. Can you link your listing?

I would much rather not call him out yet because he is willing to work with me as of now. I do apologize.

[wesdaniel]

Originally Posted by bakaneul

Seller's bank is not willing to talk to me because I'm not their client. I have tried speaking to them two times trying to trace it but no luck.

I would suggest getting the seller and his bank on a conference call together. Then the bank will be talking to him and you'll simply be listening. That will tell you everything you need to know about whether this is legit or not.

[bakaneul]

Originally Posted by wesdaniel

I would suggest getting the seller and his bank on a conference call together. Then the bank will be talking to him and you'll simply be listening. That will tell you everything you need to know about whether this is legit or not.

That is a good idea. I will try that first thing Monday morning.

[bakaneul]

Originally Posted by beshannon

Yes

If the receiving bank's info is not correct. Basically a wire sent through the FED will be available the next business day.

Is it the same for ACH Transfers? next day return or take more days? Thanks

[77T]

ACH are not same day like wires. Usually takes 24+ hours but less than 48 hours.

I’m pulling for you...and know this will be a tense weekend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[vipereaper30]

Sounds like probably a simple mistake. I recently received a $50k wire that was in error. The sender had purchased from me in the past and accidentally wired me funds instead of the seller for his latest acquisition.

If you're dealing with a reputable seller you'll get the funds don't worry. Hope it's all squared away soon!

[Humble michael]

Originally Posted by vipereaper30

Sounds like probably a simple mistake. I recently received a $50k wire that was in error. The sender had purchased from me in the past and accidentally wired me funds instead of the seller for his latest acquisition.

If you're dealing with a reputable seller you'll get the funds don't worry. Hope it's all squared away soon!

Exactly!! Patience is a virtue. In this case you have plenty of info to see the seller made some innocent mistakes but will make corrections. At the same time stay on top of it.:-)

[bakaneul]

Originally Posted by 77T

ACH are not same day like wires. Usually takes 24+ hours but less than 48 hours.

I’m pulling for you...and know this will be a tense weekend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thank you and that is what I learned about ACH over the past few days.

The seller still thinks he "wired" for same day transfer. But clearly, they are two separate methods. He's been telling me he never had any issues with his clients with BoA using this method. I am not sure when the fund will be returned back to his account but speculating a return within 3 business days. He believes that it is "my bank" that needs to release the fund in order for him to receive it back so he nor his bank has absolute zero control over this until then. We will see.

[77T]

It’s important to note that your bank doesn’t release anything in an ACH. Their role is to route the incoming deposit to the account number provided by the seller’s bank.

I will tell you that the story is sketchy.

There is no way the accountant would try an ACH without a voided check that proves your name, bank and account number is alright. Especially if he had never ACH’d you before. ACH’s are typically used when regular deposits to you will be made (like an employer does with employee’s banks).

The narrative you’ve been given is typical for reversing a wire, though.

For example, on Friday I ordered an ACH from a portfolio I have. It will appear on Monday. All the dialog you’re getting is rarely true for an ACH.


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[bakaneul]

Originally Posted by 77T

It’s important to note that your bank doesn’t release anything in an ACH. Their role is to route the incoming deposit to the account number provided by the seller’s bank.

I will tell you that the story is sketchy.

There is no way the accountant would try an ACH without a voided check that proves your name, bank and account number is alright. Especially if he had never ACH’d you before. ACH’s are typically used when regular deposits to you will be made (like an employer does with employee’s banks).

The narrative you’ve been given is typical for reversing a wire, though.

For example, on Friday I ordered an ACH from a portfolio I have. It will appear on Monday. All the dialog you’re getting is rarely true for an ACH.


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I am worried. What should I do? He keeps telling me that he never had issues with ACH transfers to any of his clients. I am just hoping the fund is heading back to his account so on Monday he can overnight me a check.

[77T]

Over the weekend there isn’t much you can do but gather all your info to document the transaction, the return, the botched refund and the chronology of events. Make sure you have iron-clad written assurances that your refund was to be made.

Maybe do some background checks on the seller using internet resources. That is something that you hopefully won’t need.

Then Monday begin your follow-ups.

If you think you’re getting a runaround by the seller next week, you can consider making a police report of suspected fraud. Possibly theft by conversion, too. If you have a family attorney, get her/him involved.




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[buckrogers0025]

My experience? Avoid ACH transfers. Period.

My online savings account transfers funds from a verified account and it still takes five full BUSINESS days to complete the transaction using ACH. For those five days, there is no accounting as to where the funds are. Just, ‘in process.’

Someone would have a very difficult time convincing me ACH is not a banking industry contrived device to ‘float’ money. Banks use your money interest-free for five days while ‘in process.’ They sell this by telling you ACH transfers are ‘free’ vs same- or next-day wire transfer fees.

I wouldn’t expect your funds to show until Tuesday or Wednesday.

[bakaneul]

[QUOTE=77T;9690850]Over the weekend there isn’t much you can do but gather all your info to document the transaction, the return, the botched refund and the chronology of events. Make sure you have iron-clad written assurances that your refund was to be made.

Maybe do some background checks on the seller using internet resources. That is something that you hopefully won’t need.

Then Monday begin your follow-ups.

If you think you’re getting a runaround by the seller next week, you can consider making a police report of suspected fraud. Possibly theft by conversion, too. If you have a family attorney, get her/him involved.


Thank you sir. I am slowly organizing every texts, emails and other documents in case of such situation. I really hope he truly does not know ACH vs Wire hence sending me ACH instead believing that was same day "wire" he sent me on Wednesday.

[bakaneul]

Originally Posted by buckrogers0025

My experience? Avoid ACH transfers. Period.

My online savings account transfers funds from a verified account and it still takes five full BUSINESS days to complete the transaction using ACH. For those five days, there is no accounting as to where the funds are. Just, ‘in process.’

Someone would have a very difficult time convincing me ACH is not a banking industry contrived device to ‘float’ money. Banks use your money interest-free for five days while ‘in process.’ They sell this by telling you ACH transfers are ‘free’ vs same- or next-day wire transfer fees.

I wouldn’t expect your funds to show until Tuesday or Wednesday.

If I knew he was going to use ACH instead of Wire, I would have said NO and ask him to overnight a check, simply because I have had zero experiences with ACH and did not even know what ACH was until on Friday morning when he sent me a copy of trasfer report. Even then, he had no idea that his bookkeeper missed last four digits of my account number and I had to point out to him after going through the report.

So I guess I should wait until Tuesday or Wednesday for the fund to be visible back on his account. The only reason I'm worried is because he believes that it is my bank that is responsible to release the fund back to him in order for him to overnight me a check.

[MinMay]

So who is this seller? I'll call him out..he's pretty DUMB!,...sending ACH LOL...

[Tha Baron]

Can he give you a wire confirmation number?

My thought is they wanted to save a few bucks and process it some other way. Wires are usually instant unless your bank has issues releasing the funds due to sone BSA-AML issues.

Why’d you send the bluesy back? Seems like poor form for a TRF “trusted seller”

[bakaneul]

Originally Posted by MinMay

So who is this seller? I'll call him out..he's pretty DUMB!,...sending ACH LOL...

I will update by Tuesday or Wednesday. Honestly at this point I can only speculate other than a few simple(but also critical) mistakes by the seller's end.

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by bakaneul

I will update by Tuesday or Wednesday. Honestly at this point I can only speculate other than a few simple(but also critical) mistakes by the seller's end.

It doesn't take a genius to know the difference between ACH and wired. I"m sorry to be harsh, but it's amazing to see how folks conduct business without a clue.

Good luck.

[bakaneul]

Originally Posted by Tha Baron

Can he give you a wire confirmation number?

My thought is they wanted to save a few bucks and process it some other way. Wires are usually instant unless your bank has issues releasing the funds due to sone BSA-AML issues.

Why’d you send the bluesy back? Seems like poor form for a TRF “trusted seller”

He gave me a copy of ACH Transfer report on Friday morning after I requested him. Report has his account number, payment number, ACH company ID and that is about it. Unfortunately, I cannot trace it myself because it is his bank and his bank will not provide any information due to privacy reason. Yes, if it was a wire transfer sent to a non existing account number, the fund would have arrived back to him sooner. Since this was a ACH transfer, I assume it will take several more days for him to see it back on his account.

[CarrJ]

I get both ACH and Wire Transfers from my IT Computer clients all the time. ACH payments do take a 1 day done Monday-Thursday. Friday ACH with no holiday on Monday would arrive on Monday....with holiday on Monday then will arrive on Tuesday. Pretty simple. Now the person sending the ACH and state when to process it and perhaps was waiting for watch to return and inspect it before processing. Now Bank Wires typically happen within the hour if domestic and a few hours if international. The guy should have processed a wire so that is just bad customer service. ACH payments are cheaper than a wire is probably why he did it.