The Official Formula One Thread!

[77T]

Originally Posted by Speedbird-1

I think we've wrung the last drop of juice out of this "yes, he did....no, he did not" discussion.

If VER goes on to take the WDC this year, it will be a forgotten footnote.

If HAM takes it, this could be a long-lasting memory. That was the chassis which was dominant and now it’s gone.


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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by 77T

Been racing since 2003, and Race Official since 2008, working various series.

Respect

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

i get the LOL... and yes some of us did do a teeny tiny small bit of racing in a Formula car. Hamilton WAS NOT 'bombing' into a closed-out situation.




HAM did not 'dive bomb' the corner, he was there, the other driver knew it, and we all know who pulled a Vettel.

This is a great point, as the narrative people are making is that Lewis came from nowhere and lost control hitting poor innocent young Maxxy into the barrier and he now get bubu, bad Lewis.
I think Max left a gap and Lewis took it right before the corner. If you can’t admit that then you’re not living in reality, because if there weren’t a gap he would have slammed into him like Ric at Baku. Videos show that Max’s previous line through that corner during quals was always wide then squared the apex. I think Lewis knew that(think). Lewis had always taken a tighter line more in line with where he was in the race. Both drivers on the road changes things, Lewis may have understeered wide and Max may have thought Lewis would back out but what happened next was in milliseconds at about 180mph……
And resulted in what always happens when Max races with someone, a crash.
Police officers at zero miles an hour can hardly remember every detail of a shooting once the first round is fired. Hence one of the reasons for body cams now.

Originally Posted by 77T

If VER goes on to take the WDC this year, it will be a forgotten footnote.

If HAM takes it, this could be a long-lasting memory. That was the chassis which was dominant and now it’s gone.


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In the end you’re right with this point.

I think people are more upset that Lewis fixed his car on a red flag(lucky as always) made up the penalty deficit and even won. Had Lewis sustained dq damage or if they both went into the wall there wouldn’t be such angst.
I just don’t get the Lewis deniers, they really believe this guy has won seven championships and broken all these records only because luck, the car or team management. They refuse to ever even consider that he can actually “drive”, that he has real talent.
No upper lever athlete/champion of any field will be given inferior tools to win. Micheal Jordan had a great team, Tom Brady, Ussein Bolt, MS had the best car and so did Vettel. Kipchoge broke the two hour marathon barrier with prototype Nikes while drafting behind a team which later caused the official time to be dq’ed. But did he not run that??
Lewis’s MB doesn’t drive itself. If it were just a car with a mouth breather behind the wheel, we would have him and Bottas trading back and forth but the points haven’t even been close.
I challenge anyone to look at Lewis’s stats for his first three years vs this generations drivers stats for that same period of time.
He didn’t get to Formula 1 because he brought super sponsors and neither did his daddy own/support the team. Hell, even I can admit that Stroll can actually drive an F1 car.

[Goin2drt]

Bottom line there are “racing incidents” every race where guys bump each other worse than this with nothing done. If Max car wouldn’t have blown up and throw him into the wall and was able to keep driving we wouldn’t be talking about this.

Bottom line Max got what he has been dealing out since joining F1. No f$&ks given racing attitude. This time his foe didn’t back out to his aggression. He got what he deserves. He needs to stop crying and maybe should have backed out like Lewis does ALL THE TIME when he is preserving a championship lead.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

I think Max left a gap and Lewis took it right before the corner. If you can’t admit that then you’re not living in reality, because if there weren’t a gap he would have slammed into him like Ric at Baku.

Agree, Max left a gap as Lewis was coming beside him. Am sure he knows how to use his mirrors.

Also agree Lewis knows the track and where advantages can be... advantageous.

Also agree the red flag gave all teams in the race, including Lewis, an opportunity.

In the end we saw Lewis earn a win and am sure we can agree it was not an easy win at that.

Still wish Michael's kid was doing better.

[Lol-x]

Verstappen left space to the right because Verstappen was on the racing line for the corner.

Hamilton's entry speed into the corner was higher than any other lap Hamilton took into that corner.

Of course Verstappen took a final short sharp turn to the right, he was doing so to get the apex of the corner, otherwise he would have driver straight off the track.

We've all seen how police take a car out by tapping the rear corner of the leading vehicle. Hamilton's tap was on the button.

Its irrelevant what Verstappen would have done if he was in Hamilton's position, apart from being pure speculation and fantasy as it never happened, if Verstappen did what Hamilton did then Verstappen would have deserved to be struck out from the race with zero points, just like Hamilton should have where his actions were close to killing Verstappen.

[77T]

These are all good debates and perspectives. The one thing we can’t do is judge the rules compliance by the outcome.

VER is fortunate (as well as some spectators) to be alive. The rotation of his car through the gravel after the wheels touched could have caused a horizontal rollover. In which case his car would have elevated and hit the catch fence above the tire wall.

So that’s an outcome we dodged.

If you wish to see why Stewards adjudicated HAM as they did, take this YT and cut playback to 25% of real speed


and note the failed covering off by VET, his allowance of racing room, and then his need to navigate the turn.

HAM was not ahead and was edging mid track when he ought to have come to terms with his ill designed plan to navigate the same turn closer to the apex.

But I respect everyone’s POV. You are why we can race. Eyeball sell adverts. Sponsors pay teams. And we all merrily spend it in volumes all for the glory of the circus.

Anyone going to Hungary?
Mmmm…goulash.


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[enjoythemusic]

For safety sake, maybe future F1 spec vehicles could be like bumper cars so that there's no chance of wheel-to-wheel contact. Plus the 360-degree bumpers would help during a crash to reduce impact. I know that sounds crazy, but worth consideration.

[77T]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

For safety sake, maybe future F1 spec vehicles could be like bumper cars so that there's no chance of wheel-to-wheel contact. Plus the 360-degree bumpers would help during a crash to reduce impact. I know that sounds crazy, but worth consideration.

They could use IndyCar chassis then.

For some turns at some tracks, a concrete wall instead of runoff room serves two purposes: track limits & instilling respect.


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[corejava2]

Personally I think this is all a result of the sprint race. Louis lost pole position at this particular corner in the sprint race and saw how Max ran away with it growing a 1+ second gap on him. He sure as hell knew that being 33 points down as well as not taking the lead at that corner his race was essentially done. Hence he didn't back out and wheels touched.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by Lol-x

Verstappen left space to the right because Verstappen was on the racing line for the corner.

Hamilton's entry speed into the corner was higher than any other lap Hamilton took into that corner.

Of course Verstappen took a final short sharp turn to the right, he was doing so to get the apex of the corner, otherwise he would have driver straight off the track.

We've all seen how police take a car out by tapping the rear corner of the leading vehicle. Hamilton's tap was on the button.

Its irrelevant what Verstappen would have done if he was in Hamilton's position, apart from being pure speculation and fantasy as it never happened, if Verstappen did what Hamilton did then Verstappen would have deserved to be struck out from the race with zero points, just like Hamilton should have where his actions were close to killing Verstappen.

Agree ^^^... What happened when VER was a rookie or in his first couple seasons is irrelevant as it relates to this year as he has grown and matured incredibly well. Also what Hamilton has done in the past is irrelevant as his skills have diminished and has made a lot of mistakes as a result of the pressure applied to him by Max. As of RIGHT NOW, Hamilton has 4 penalty points and Max has NONE.

Originally Posted by corejava2

Personally I think this is all a result of the sprint race. Louis lost pole position at this particular corner in the sprint race and saw how Max ran away with it growing a 1+ second gap on him. He sure as hell knew that being 33 points down as well as not taking the lead at that corner his race was essentially done. Hence he didn't back out and wheels touched.

Agree as the sprint race showed Hamilton that if Max got into the lead for Sunday's race he may not ever catch him.

I'll go on to add from the first quote that I don't think Hamilton made a mistake when he pit manuvered Max into the wall at 180 MPH but rather made a calculated move that was risky. It absolutely could not have worked out better for Hamilton as he crashed out his championship rival all while scoring maximum points for himself.

I think RBR racing comes back strong this weekend as Hungary suits their car better.

[Dr.Brian]

Originally Posted by 77T

If VER goes on to take the WDC this year, it will be a forgotten footnote.

If HAM takes it, this could be a long-lasting memory. That was the chassis which was dominant and now it’s gone.


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I think this is an underrated comment. The dominant and optimally tuned engine and chassis is now a pile of parts in a warehouse in England. I don’t think it’s a given that they can get the magic right in a couple of free practices.

[SDGT3]

2021 has given us another variable as it relates to the championship chase -- Budget Constraints! HAM putting VER into the wall has cost RBR $1,800,000 in damage.... costs that must come out of the operating budget for this year.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...gpPkJzCW8TuwtU

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by 77T

For some turns at some tracks, a concrete wall instead of runoff room serves two purposes: track limits & instilling respect.

WGI's armco can be daunting.

LRP's original uphill could put you in the trees.

Ahhh, the 'pucker moments' of going in too hot while attacking the apex....

[77T]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

2021 has given us another variable as it relates to the championship chase -- Budget Constraints! HAM putting VER into the wall has cost RBR $1,800,000 in damage.... costs that must come out of the operating budget for this year.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...gpPkJzCW8TuwtU

Yes the budget cap is hurtful. FIA upped the cap 600K for damage in the new Sprint Qually’s. Of course not helpful for this incident.

I would like to see a new Steward power to assess damages as well as driver penalties. The damage amount would come after the event and after Jo Bauer inspects the car.

So, in this case, before Hungary on Aug 1st the adjustments would be a debit/credit action. I’ll pick 1Mil. just to be easy math.

RBR would get a 1Mil. Cap credit increase (no Euro’s from MB, just allowance to spend more). Then MB gets a Cap debit of 1Mil. It’s a wash for total spending constraints across the entire season.

This adds a hazard to the wallet for rules infractions causing large damage.


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[daveathall]

Verstappen has been and is known as a very aggressive driver, so much so that he has even driven his own team mate from the track. We have a saying here, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."

Verstappen shouldn't be looked upon as some poor "bullied" young upstart, he has been "the bully" for years. If it is left for his aggressiveness to be left unchecked then one may as well say, "Max is close, back off." Seems like a lot of people here look at him as some innocent kid. Just Google Verstappen's crashes.

On one occasion, someone never backed off, nor did he, he had the option to pull away and give the position, he chose not to, it cost him the race. He has forced drivers to pull back on many occasion, this time Hamilton didnt pull back, nor did Verstappen, as on many occasions, Hamilton got the same 10 second penalty as Verstappen had previously.

Oh, by the way, I'm no fan of Hamilton, I think he is a whiney driver that blames everyone but himself. But on this occasion I see many ABE.

If there is only one aggressive driver on the circuit, he will win, because everyone else will have to back off.

Verstappen has been the one driver that many think will kill someone.

https://sportstar.thehindu.com/motor...cle9050513.ece

Good article here. Basically, it was bound to happen.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/our-v...-gp-collision/

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by 77T

Yes the budget cap is hurtful. FIA upped the cap 600K for damage in the new Sprint Qually’s. Of course not helpful for this incident.

I would like to see a new Steward power to assess damages as well as driver penalties. The damage amount would come after the event and after Jo Bauer inspects the car.

So, in this case, before Hungary on Aug 1st the adjustments would be a debit/credit action. I’ll pick 1Mil. just to be easy math.

RBR would get a 1Mil. Cap credit increase (no Euro’s from MB, just allowance to spend more). Then MB gets a Cap debit of 1Mil. It’s a wash for total spending constraints across the entire season.

This adds a hazard to the wallet for rules infractions causing large damage.


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This is getting complicated.

If a championship is lost because of repair damage costs that wasn't even the driver in question's fault, that would be difficult to swallow. Senna could have exploited this rule. Would have to believe there may be some allowances made for damaged cars after this season. Afterall repairing a damaged car doesn't violate the spirit of why the rule is in place.

[OmegaJJH]

Originally Posted by 77T

Yes the budget cap is hurtful. FIA upped the cap 600K for damage in the new Sprint Qually’s. Of course not helpful for this incident.

I would like to see a new Steward power to assess damages as well as driver penalties. The damage amount would come after the event and after Jo Bauer inspects the car.

So, in this case, before Hungary on Aug 1st the adjustments would be a debit/credit action. I’ll pick 1Mil. just to be easy math.

RBR would get a 1Mil. Cap credit increase (no Euro’s from MB, just allowance to spend more). Then MB gets a Cap debit of 1Mil. It’s a wash for total spending constraints across the entire season.

This adds a hazard to the wallet for rules infractions causing large damage.


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I agree about a damaged car receiving a credit of 1 Mil in this example but disagree with a team getting the same debit. That could bankrupt a backmarker team.


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[77T]

Originally Posted by OmegaJJH

I agree about a damaged car receiving a credit of 1 Mil in this example but disagree with a team getting the same debit. That could bankrupt a backmarker team.


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It doesn’t bankrupt anyone because no actual money changes hands. It’s about spending cap accounting methods.

It simply makes them and their drivers more responsible if they cause a significant incident.


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[Speedbird-1]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Verstappen has been and is known as a very aggressive driver, so much so that he has even driven his own team mate from the track. We have a saying here, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."

Verstappen shouldn't be looked upon as some poor "bullied" young upstart, he has been "the bully" for years. If it is left for his aggressiveness to be left unchecked then one may as well say, "Max is close, back off." Seems like a lot of people here look at him as some innocent kid. Just Google Verstappen's crashes.

On one occasion, someone never backed off, nor did he, he had the option to pull away and give the position, he chose not to, it cost him the race. He has forced drivers to pull back on many occasion, this time Hamilton didnt pull back, nor did Verstappen, as on many occasions, Hamilton got the same 10 second penalty as Verstappen had previously.

Oh, by the way, I'm no fan of Hamilton, I think he is a whiney driver that blames everyone but himself. But on this occasion I see many ABE.

If there is only one aggressive driver on the circuit, he will win, because everyone else will have to back off.

Verstappen has been the one driver that many think will kill someone.

https://sportstar.thehindu.com/motor...cle9050513.ece

Good article here. Basically, it was bound to happen.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/our-v...-gp-collision/

Yep!

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Verstappen has been and is known as a very aggressive driver, so much so that he has even driven his own team mate from the track. We have a saying here, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."

Verstappen shouldn't be looked upon as some poor "bullied" young upstart, he has been "the bully" for years. If it is left for his aggressiveness to be left unchecked then one may as well say, "Max is close, back off." Seems like a lot of people here look at him as some innocent kid. Just Google Verstappen's crashes.

On one occasion, someone never backed off, nor did he, he had the option to pull away and give the position, he chose not to, it cost him the race. He has forced drivers to pull back on many occasion, this time Hamilton didnt pull back, nor did Verstappen, as on many occasions, Hamilton got the same 10 second penalty as Verstappen had previously.

Oh, by the way, I'm no fan of Hamilton, I think he is a whiney driver that blames everyone but himself. But on this occasion I see many ABE.

If there is only one aggressive driver on the circuit, he will win, because everyone else will have to back off.

Verstappen has been the one driver that many think will kill someone.

https://sportstar.thehindu.com/motor...cle9050513.ece

Good article here. Basically, it was bound to happen.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/our-v...-gp-collision/

Preach brother.
I just don’t know how people overlook this or don’t care just because they want Lewis to lose.
This is going back and forth and will continue until the end of time, unless Max wins the championship then nobody will care. Like how no one talks about the crash that Nico and Lewis had chasing the championship, Nico won.
So many other crashes between cars that no one cares about or blames anyone, but these two guys which are the two most polarizing drivers meet in a corner and their has to be someone to blame, there has to be! And no matter what it can’t be poor Max.

It seems impossible to conceive that two guys “racing” for the win could possibly have an incident, and they even have a term for it, racing incident.

Max’s idea of beating someone on the track is to either have a far superior car that puts him way ahead by himself because for all his faults he can drive, or….he drives like a reckless maniac that people will back off from to avoid a crash. Most often than not, there isn’t even time for the other guy to react, he just causes a crash. At least Mazepin is usually by himself when he crashes.

[Brny11]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Verstappen has been and is known as a very aggressive driver, so much so that he has even driven his own team mate from the track. We have a saying here, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."

Verstappen shouldn't be looked upon as some poor "bullied" young upstart, he has been "the bully" for years. If it is left for his aggressiveness to be left unchecked then one may as well say, "Max is close, back off." Seems like a lot of people here look at him as some innocent kid. Just Google Verstappen's crashes.

On one occasion, someone never backed off, nor did he, he had the option to pull away and give the position, he chose not to, it cost him the race. He has forced drivers to pull back on many occasion, this time Hamilton didnt pull back, nor did Verstappen, as on many occasions, Hamilton got the same 10 second penalty as Verstappen had previously.

Oh, by the way, I'm no fan of Hamilton, I think he is a whiney driver that blames everyone but himself. But on this occasion I see many ABE.

If there is only one aggressive driver on the circuit, he will win, because everyone else will have to back off.

Verstappen has been the one driver that many think will kill someone.

https://sportstar.thehindu.com/motor...cle9050513.ece

Good article here. Basically, it was bound to happen.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/our-v...-gp-collision/

I couldn’t agree more. Max is no victim.

However, I get this feeling that Hamilton had a black out borderline road rage moment knowing if he loses this corner (as he did the first few) the race was likely over for him. To that point, I debate if it was aggressive or desperate (maybe they are one in the same). Can’t prove that so just food for thought.

Really interesting moment in F1 as I see validity to every coherent (not fan biased) argument / article I have read.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by Brny11

I couldn’t agree more. Max is no victim.

However, I get this feeling that Hamilton had a black out borderline road rage moment knowing if he loses this corner (as he did the first few) the race was likely over for him. To that point, I debate if it was aggressive or desperate (maybe they are one in the same). Can’t prove that so just food for thought.

Really interesting moment in F1 as I see validity to every coherent (not fan biased) argument / article I have read.

Besides 2016 when two Mercedes teammates were battling for the title, it's the first time in 9 years a team besides the Mercs have a legitimate chance at both driver's and constructor's titles. It seems the level of interests and number of posts proves that out.

Last Sunday's moment on track definitely had a feel of a pivotal swing because the points gap between the two main rivals could have swung from anywhere between 40 points to Max's favor to the current 8 points. If the former would have happened, it was conceivable that Max could have gone into the summer break after a win at Hungary with close to a full 2 race maximum points lead. That has all evaporated now.

[sillo]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

Besides 2016 when two Mercedes teammates were battling for the title, it's the first time in 9 years a team besides the Mercs have a legitimate chance at both driver's and constructor's titles.

2017 and 2018 would like to talk. Those seasons Ferrari had legitimate title shots and lead one of the championships for an extended period of time.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

It seems impossible to conceive that two guys “racing” for the win could possibly have an incident, and they even have a term for it, racing incident.

Max’s idea of beating someone on the track is to either have a far superior car that puts him way ahead by himself because for all his faults he can drive, or….he drives like a reckless maniac that people will back off from to avoid a crash. Most often than not, there isn’t even time for the other guy to react, he just causes a crash. At least Mazepin is usually by himself when he crashes.

It wasn't deemed a racing incident by the panel of race stewards who ruled that Lewis was at fault. Max did not receive a penalty because left Lewis room. If anyone can give just 1 example of what Max did wrong, I'm open to listen. Max has 0 points against his super license and Lewis has 4. What's being protested by some here, including myself, is that a 10 second penalty was insufficient given the location of the contact (180 mph corner) which led to a hospitalization.

As it relates to the topic of Max having a faster car this year, the evidence does not prove that out as there's been an ebb and flow to the evolution of the cars this year. Mercedes started off strong and were probably at their zenith at the Spanish GP when they completely destroyed everyone. RBR brought upgrades to Austria which worked extremely well. Couple that with the fact they were there for 2 weekends in a row, they appeared to have the upper hand. Then Mercedes brought upgrades to Silverstone and they were probably on par with RBR. Graph below shows how the 2 protagonists have faired throughout the season so far.

[AshAP]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

It wasn't deemed a racing incident by the panel of race stewards who ruled that Lewis was at fault. Max did not receive a penalty because left Lewis room. If anyone can give just 1 example of what Max did wrong, I'm open to listen.

It’s clear to see in the replays that Verstappen turns in expecting Lewis to concede and brake, only Lewis didn’t brake. Verstappen is aggressive and a danger to every driver on the grid and now he’s proven that he’s also a danger to himself.


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[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

It wasn't deemed a racing incident by the panel of race stewards who ruled that Lewis was at fault. Max did not receive a penalty because left Lewis room. If anyone can give just 1 example of what Max did wrong, I'm open to listen. Max has 0 points against his super license and Lewis has 4. What's being protested by some here, including myself, is that a 10 second penalty was insufficient given the location of the contact (180 mph corner) which led to a hospitalization.

So you accept that this great panel deemed Lewis at fault but don’t accept their punishment decision. Can’t have it both ways, if they’re experts enough to deem fault they’re experts enough to judge the punishment.
No one accepts the punishment because Lewis overcame it, that’s all. From my point of view Max had equal if not more part in his “hospitalization”, ie he recklessly turned into a corner( seen in video of his steering wheel) where there was a car present which he knew as he turned away then back into Lewis. You can’t just assume your aggression will scare people, which is what he did, except Lewis wasn’t afraid and he was side by side going into the apex…..then something happened that could have been avoided by a more mature driver, obviously not Verstappen.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by AshAP

It’s clear to see in the replays that Verstappen turns in expecting Lewis to concede and brake, only Lewis didn’t brake. Verstappen is aggressive and a danger to every driver on the grid and now he’s proven that he’s also a danger to himself.


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I'll repeat, Max was not penalized, nor has he received any penalty points in 2021. Lewis now has 4 points. These are the fact folks.

At 180 MPH he has to turn in or he goes off track. Max is OBLIGATED TO LEAVE SPACE for his opponent, which he did - Lewis elected to not take that space, hence the penalty. Ironically, Lewis did take the space closest to the apex when he passed LeClerc at the exact same spot. LeClerc didn't turn in at 180 mph and as a result went off track. Also Lewis does not have to brake (as you wrote). With the amount of downforce these cars carry just lifting causes 1 negative G, more than enough for both to make it through the corner as they had done during previous corners before arriving at Copse. Just 1/2 meter and they both go through. Miscalculation by Lewis or purposely timed? He only knows.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

So you accept that this great panel deemed Lewis at fault but don’t accept their punishment decision. Can’t have it both ways, if they’re experts enough to deem fault they’re experts enough to judge the punishment.
No one accepts the punishment because Lewis overcame it, that’s all. From my point of view Max had equal if not more part in his “hospitalization”, ie he recklessly turned into a corner( seen in video of his steering wheel) where there was a car present which he knew as he turned away then back into Lewis. You can’t just assume your aggression will scare people, which is what he did, except Lewis wasn’t afraid and he was side by side going into the apex…..then something happened that could have been avoided by a more mature driver, obviously not Verstappen.

I disagree with degree of the penalty but he had not been transported to the hospital at the time the penalty came down. I admit the level of penalty shouldn't rest on the outcome of the injury as it's 2 different things, but where the incident occurred (highest speed corner not only on this track but perhaps on the entire F1 calendar) does carry weight. If it happened on the hairpin at Monaco at 30 mph I can see a 10 sec. penalty. If we just look at the penalty assessed to George Russell on the Saturday Sprint race (3 grid spaces), he just locked a front left wheel causing understeer and into the sidepod of Sainz who had to go off track and lose some places, but continued on. Doesn't seem to be even in terms of level of assessed penalties.

[77T]

A good debate.

I’m a bit late to it because it’s a race weekend for me and my panel has a similar incident we worked on until dark. And we’ll start again early tomorrow.

I think the dislike of the 10 seconds HAM received is because it had no lasting effect. He overcame it.

It’s not the way many people wanted the outcome to unfold. But as some here have correctly said, the incident stands on its own facts - not the awful consequences.

The penalty some want is to move HAM out of a points earning position.

In other words, remove any benefit to him. But then Stewards lose objectivity if they deign to be kingmakers.

It can be done but that Doesn’t mean you Should.


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