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Old 30 January 2010, 11:00 AM   #151
Mystro
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All do respect...This is a Omega forum. You are going to get a Omega camp opinion. Let this thread go and start this on the Rolex forum and it will be fought the same way toward Rolex. This is a "Taste great" vs "Less filling" debate isnt it??????

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Old 30 January 2010, 11:43 AM   #152
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Well, selective reading on whose part.
Whew...i thought that you were going to quote more from your one souce, Watch Time! And how many sources did you base YOUR point on?? And you even talk down to me about all the multiple sources and books that you have to prove your point! And your source was not even relevant to our discussion (b/w you and me)!

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Practically every watchmaker and watch Engineer has nothing but praise for Rolex robust, accurate and well engineered movements....
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and you can buy the same watchmaker journals and books and study up...
Hmmm, i guess the whole watchmaker/engineer field just went MIA along with their journals and books! Darn it, i really wanted to study up....

(I bet that you thought that i did not know about WT, huh?!)

Tools, you're a good guy from what i have read. Nothing personal man. Just poking fun to keep this thread lighthearted.

Truly, to everyone in this thread, have a good weekend. I am outta here!

Thai.
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Old 30 January 2010, 06:45 PM   #153
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Not to get off-topic, but is the Daytona an upgrade from a Speedmaster?
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Old 30 January 2010, 10:14 PM   #154
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Stop the madness.....
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Not to get off-topic, but is the Daytona an upgrade from a Speedmaster?
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Old 31 January 2010, 04:32 AM   #155
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All I know is that if someone threw a Sub and a PO at me, I know which one I would try to catch.
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Old 2 February 2010, 03:26 PM   #156
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Actually, you may want to read this article: http://www.chronometrie.com/rolex3135/rolex3135.html
I have. Not only does he state that the bridge in question offers shock protection, but he also discusses the movement in quite glowing terms:
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Originally Posted by A. Watchmaker
(pic#27) The complete movement, carefully cleaned and lubricated, ready to be installed in the watch case. This Swiss mechanical marvel of precision micro engineering is once again ready to offer years of accurate and trouble free time keeping.
As far as I am concerned it’s very sad that even with the huge slew of new movements that have been introduced during the 3135’s past two decades of continuous use and refinement, there still aren’t too many challengers to the Rolex triple crown of accuracy, reliability and durability – i.e. its toughness – for example, its ability to withstand the abuse of everyday life that most active people, both men and women, would hurl at it, and still keep on ticking. And not just keep on ticking, but to continue doing so accurately too.
Now, granted he does go on to list a few gripes about the movement, but unless he's got multiple personality disorder, he wouldn't have written the portion that I just quoted if he felt that either of these constitute serious "flaws" in the watch's design (and in fact in his review of the 2892, he also raised a few issues he has with the movement's design); further, the second and more potentially serious weakness he lists doesn't even manifest itself provided the watch is serviced at the recommended factory intervals.

Lastly, the watch he examined was a 1993 model which was purchased brand new and hadn't been serviced since then. This is a seventeen year old watch, and given Rolex's history of continually updating and improving their movements (as the author notes), it's entirely possible that his concerns have since been fixed; it is unfortunate that he didn't tear down a newer watch.

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Depends upon who you ask; I link to another teardown of a never-serviced 25 year old Rolex below, interesting read. The article you linked dealt with a watch that hadn't been serviced for an interval >> than factory recommended service intervals, and frankly its exhibiting wear on a metal part that hadn't been lubricated at said intervals is hardly surprising; this, after all, is why they recommend these service intervals in the first place.

Also note that this author too notes the added stability offered by the balance bridge that I noted, so neither of the articles you cite really contradict my statement about the bridge offering additional shock protection over a balance cock. Although having said that, as I've noted elsewhere, ETA movements are not exactly known for being fragile little beasties; I've certainly had no problem whatsoever with any of my ETA-equipped timepieces, except when I exceeded the recommended service interval by a substantial margin, which presumably didn't do that movement a lot of good either, given that it was losing 45 seconds a day by that point.

Also also note that Watch Time noted the enhanced stability of the balance bridge over the balance cock:
Quote:
The bridge that bears the balance, which tirelessly oscillates back and
forth 28,800 times every hour, is affixed on two sides rather than on only
one side, as is the situation on a balance-cock. This guarantees greater
stability because the problems associated with the vibration of a balancecock
don’t exist with a balance-bridge.
So I think I was on pretty solid ground when I wrote that the bridge design does offer added shock protection.

As to the 2500, it certainly had its share of early issues (they aren't on Rev C because Revs A and B were flawless, after all), but it seems to have the kinks worked out In the future, once someone has stripped down and photographed a 2500 after missing its servicing interval by > 50%, we can compare the relative reliability, but unfortunately we can't for now.

As to Walt Odet's article, this is a review by a Psychologist by trade who dabbled in watchmaking as a hobby of an older version of the Explorer, and afaik its movement has been updated since the time of (perhaps because of) that review; in any case, the fact that one example had obvious QC issues doesn't indicate in and of itself a poor design (in fact its timing performance was first-rate, beating out some much more expensive watches he tested in other essays), only that this particular example shoudn't have left the factory, so Rolex got some deserved egg on face out of that one. BUT, it's important to note that this is a completely different movement than is in the Rolex being discussed here (the Submariner), just as the outstanding Omega Cal. 8500 (which just happens to be the movement in the Hour Vision, a watch that's very high up on my "get" list) is a different movement than is in the Omega being discussed here (the Planet Ocean, which I already *do* own, and love).

I'm very happy with my PO, and FWIW picked it over an SS Sub date (though I later picked up a TT Sub date), and frankly in terms of day-to-day timing accuracy, it's fantastic, although it isn't as *consistent* as the Rolexes, both of which exhibit very predictable loss (4130) and gain (3135) of < 1 sec/day, while with the PO it's *normally* +1/day or so, but every once in awhile it gains a bit more. Still, it is markedly more accurate than the SMP I picked up earlier this year, which has settled in around +3 to +4 sec/day, still very accurate and well within COSC specs.

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And yes, the new Caliber 8500 from Omega has the balance bridge along with other significant improvements not seen on a Rolex.
It is a fantastic movement, from what I've read.

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I do agree that the Sub is an icon. Personally, i would pick it (or SD) over the Omega PO for that very reason. (I am a Rolex and Omega fan.) My problem with Omega is that they change style (and direction of design) way too often. Hopefully, with Swatch moving Omega to Tier 1, Omega design will be more consistent from generation to generation. I do love my Hour Vision.
Don't own this one yet, but it's definitely on the short list, in 18K rose, on a strap.

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However, when talking about movements, Rolex ain't that great as people are led to believe.
Well, let's not be too harsh here: the first guy you quoted actually stated that it is a great movement and heaped praise on it, and the second pointed to an issue that only manifests itself if the watch is not serviced at recommended service intervals.

Also, the second guy pointed out design features in the 3135 that he felt were more durable than those in the ETA movements, so even he and the first guy are not unanimous on the superiority on ETAs.

He also stated:
Quote:
The early wear is the result of 7 years of use with no service. Unfortunately, many watch owners bypass the advice of the manufacturer to oil and clean the watch periodically. Mechanical watches should be cleaned and oiled every 2-3 years. You will rarely find a watch with no problem after even 5 years without servicing
Here's another take on a Rolex movement, a stripdown and clean of a Rolex 3035 purchased in 1978 and serviced for the first time twenty five years later; the author has plenty of praise for the movement, including:
Quote:
You can say about Rolex and their pricing and advertising what you want. But I can tell you this, if you start working with their movements, you will start changing your mind or dropping some of the prejudice. Rolex makes good watches, maybe not highly refined stuff as their sales price could imply. It is the overall consistency of quality and technology that has impressed me.

After removing the rotor and automatic winding system, we noticed that the movement was very clean. This was a sign that water resistance had been good over 26 years. Seeing that the parts and the movement was so clean, encouraged me to convince Rob to do only a partial strip down and focus on the winding parts only.

Here is a close-up of the rotor from the underside and the automatic winding system. There is almost no wear noticeable. All parts are clean, all teeth look like like they should. A very pleasant discovery to find this kind of condition that has been worn for years on an almost daily basis. And I do not quite like to mention this: I had worn this watch during ice hockey games - covered under the ice hockey gloves - ignoring the additional risk to m wrists from hits. And not to talk about the risk of getting the movement damaged. But obviously mechanical watches can absorb quite some shocks. I had also worn this watch to the sauna at several occasions. I was wearing it daily or better during 24 hours and this watch has certainly experienced its share of an active life-style. Yet it had never seized to function.

Here is the movement from the rotor side with the removed rotor and winding system. Again you will notice, how clean this heavily used watch movement is after not having been opened for 26 years. This also speaks for a great quality and for appropriate tolerances throughout the movement and parts.
My ETA (Valjoux) equipped Breitling was losing 45 seconds a day after eight years.
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Old 5 February 2010, 12:59 AM   #157
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To be honest I wouldn't really consider the Sub as an upgrade to a PO, the PO is a great watch. I think the argument over resale value is often mute as a Sub costs more in the first place.

There is oviously a reason the OP still has some reason that a Sub is pulling him in and I think it's just an intangable feeling. To say really that either watch is better than the other is pointless.

As far as real world performance both watches do exactly the same, ie they tell the time very well and have a rotating bezel, forget the HRV as it's not important.

I have had a few Omega's in the past and have never been able to pick fault with them. But overall I think it's the same with the Sub and any faults that often get addressed by folk will soon be rectified with the updated version. But the Sub will still be priced way higher than a PO.

It is very hard to critique any watch as people will always feel any negatives being made are a reflection on their persoanl choices and it always leads to upset.

The PO is better value for money, if you want to look at the trade from a purely logical stand point and I am sure most will agree on this. however there is nothing logical about any higher end watch purchase so at the end of the day choose with your heart.
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Old 15 March 2010, 02:40 PM   #158
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Very interesting thread. I'm toying with the idea of adding a Seamaster. I don't think I'm downgrading from a Submariner (which I will NOT sell), but when Omega keeps changing their designs you start to think when will they make their minds up. The wind blows left and they come up with oversized watches, the wind blow right and they add orange. I wanted to add the swordhands Seamaster but Omega has since 'upgraded' it. So even Omega felt compelled to 'upgrade' its Seamaster - again. Nuff said.

The Submariner design has stood the test of time pretty much since Day One. IMHO the Rolex Submariner is the benchmark to which all divers are measured. Value is subjective, especially when you can buy a workhorse diver in the Seiko SKX007.



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Old 15 March 2010, 03:17 PM   #159
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Nice sub! As i wrote above, i much prefer my PO to the sub i just sold, though.

there is something to be said for the classic design of the sub, of course. but in the end, IMO, it's irrelevant whether or not Omega changes their designs. As long as the design for that particular watch is timeless, that's all that matters to me. And most all Omegas have timeless and stylish designs. So, in the end, it comes down to which one you like. More variety...so there's more options to choose which particular one suits you the best. Nothing wrong with that.

And , the color orange option is there for a reason. It's a color commonly used for dive watches because orange has been known to have greater staying power (i.e. legibility ) in the water.

the doxa sub, one of the most iconic dive watches, is famous for being orange.




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Originally Posted by gelshocker View Post
Very interesting thread. I'm toying with the idea of adding a Seamaster. I don't think I'm downgrading from a Submariner (which I will NOT sell), but when Omega keeps changing their designs you start to think when will they make their minds up. The wind blows left and they come up with oversized watches, the wind blow right and they add orange. I wanted to add the swordhands Seamaster but Omega has since 'upgraded' it. So even Omega felt compelled to 'upgrade' its Seamaster - again. Nuff said.

The Submariner design has stood the test of time pretty much since Day One. IMHO the Rolex Submariner is the benchmark to which all divers are measured. Value is subjective, especially when you can buy a workhorse diver in the Seiko SKX007.



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Old 15 March 2010, 10:22 PM   #160
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Nice sub! As i wrote above, i much prefer my PO to the sub i just sold, though.

there is something to be said for the classic design of the sub, of course. but in the end, IMO, it's irrelevant whether or not Omega changes their designs. As long as the design for that particular watch is timeless, that's all that matters to me. And most all Omegas have timeless and stylish designs. So, in the end, it comes down to which one you like. More variety...so there's more options to choose which particular one suits you the best. Nothing wrong with that.

And , the color orange option is there for a reason. It's a color commonly used for dive watches because orange has been known to have greater staying power (i.e. legibility ) in the water.

the doxa sub, one of the most iconic dive watches, is famous for being orange.
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Old 16 March 2010, 02:00 AM   #161
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I just flipped a 45.5mm PO. I lived without it for a day. I then went into my AD and picked up a brand new 42mm PO. I am never going to sell this one. Mark my words, never. I will sell my Tag Carrerra for sure, and possibly flip GMT IIc for a Coke, but never this PO.
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Old 16 March 2010, 10:25 AM   #162
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I own both brands. Some days I wear this....other days I wear these.
That 3513.50 Speedmaster is, by far, the most attractive watch of your impressive collection. It is far more attractive than the standard speedy--but I am sure hundreds might argue that point to the contrary.
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Old 16 March 2010, 11:02 AM   #163
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No IMHO.. Both have a distinct place in terms of history and popularity.. I would like to own a PO even though I have a Sub
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Old 16 March 2010, 01:23 PM   #164
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This is compaering BMW to Mercedes IMHO both very well built and respectable in there own right. Omega has never been a company to offer the same design of seamaster for decades they just switch it up thats how they work. And Rolex makes small design changes to a perfect base design.
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Old 17 March 2010, 07:37 PM   #165
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i think the Planet Ocean is a better dive watch than Sub date.

looks goes to PO.
specs goes to PO.
movement could go either way.
function goes to PO. with its great lume and orange colors
price goes to PO.

though i still havent purchased it. im sure that this is my next watch. been sure for 3 months now.
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