Something to consider regarding declaring low value for Customs fees...

[watchgroupcorp]

When a buyer asks you to declare a lower value for Customs fees, you should always say no. Here is a good reason why.

Law Enforcement agencies around the world sometimes run investigations and stings. Some of their activities are almost solely based on generating revenue to meet budget requirements while enforcing violations. They may not normally enforce a particular law, but due to budget requirements, they may choose to be more firm either temporarily or moving forward entirely.

If this is the case, it is possible that (hypothetically) a Customs agent from Italy could offer to buy your vintage 5513. He could request/require that you agree to declare a low value for Customs fees avoidance.

He could then follow that package through the tracking number and be sure to inspect it so that it could be confiscated due to the law violation. Then his law enforcement organization will have an item to sell at auction, and you will have lost a bunch of money. And ParcelPro won't cover you if you decide to under-declare the value for Customs, so an insurance claim is out.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this happens already. If it doesn't, I'm sure that it will happen at some point. It just doesn't benefit any seller to declare a lower value for fee avoidance. If everybody can take this to heart, then the playing field will be level for sellers. I'm sure there are buyers out there who shop around to find a seller who will under declare the value for fee avoidance. Not a good idea. It could end up costing you the margins on many watches if your item gets confiscated. Just some food for thought.

[MonBK]

This was the dumbest thing I've read in a loooong time.

[dysondiver]

all fair points ,,, but.

[brandrea]

Being straight up is always best.

[watchgroupcorp]

Originally Posted by MonBK

This was the dumbest thing I've read in a loooong time.

Gotta love the variety of perspectives here. #thumbsup

[fizz]

I'm not sure how this works, but I've rarely come across any seller that doesn't agree to declare lower value. One technique I've seen being used is that the seller asks to make 2 payments, one for the lower value that has to be declared and the other for the remainder. I don't know how this safeguards them but it does.

The other technique has to do with declaring lower value but getting a separate insurance for the full amount before sending. Not sure how it works either, but I've been told it does.

[jban5]

There is one perspective that can be looked at, and maybe this will be called the successor to the dumbest thing anyone ever read, every time a buyer asks a seller to declare a lesser value to an item they are not only asking you to violate the law but they are asking you to take all the risks involved upon yourself.

[watchgroupcorp]

Originally Posted by fizz

I'm not sure how this works, but I've rarely come across any seller that doesn't agree to declare lower value. One technique I've seen being used is that the seller asks to make 2 payments, one for the lower value that has to be declared and the other for the remainder. I don't know how this safeguards them but it does.

The other technique has to do with declaring lower value but getting a separate insurance for the full amount before sending. Not sure how it works either, but I've been told it does.

Having spoken to ParcelPro about this very subject, they flat out tell you that you will get a warning screen if you declare a lower value and that you can agree to accept liability and they will let you proceed, but they will not be of any assistance with regards to insurance if it is confiscated in Customs due to under declaring. I'm not sure what insurance company would provide insurance which cover the Parties in the even that the Parties choose to break import tax laws. If such company exists, I would like to know about it.

I suppose that a notarized, signed Agreement that the buyer accepts full responsibility along with a wire transfer payment would protect the seller, but the seller may end up on a list if that item is confiscated due to under-declaring. I'm not sure your merchant credit card processor would back you up on a contract that violates laws. You'd probably be subject to a chargeback if the seller didn't honor his end of the contract in which he agreed to take full responsibility. Payment aggregators such as paypal, square, etc. definitely wouldn't back you up. In my opinion, it is always best to accurately declare the value.

[watchgroupcorp]

Originally Posted by jban5

There is one perspective that can be looked at, and maybe this will be called the successor to the dumbest thing anyone ever read, every time a buyer asks a seller to declare a lesser value to an item they are not only asking you to violate the law but they are asking you to take all the risks involved upon yourself.

I agree 100% #3rddumbestthingever

[MonBK]

Let me see if I got this right!

The Italian government or any other government in Europe will PM you in response to your ad, negotiate a price, wire transfer the funds and then ask you to lower the invoice so that they a couple of days later can confiscate the watch in order to sell it at a government auction?

What a business idea, no wonder Italy is doing so great.

[watchgroupcorp]

Originally Posted by MonBK

Let me see if I got this right!

The Italian government or any other government in Europe will PM you in response to your ad, negotiate a price, wire transfer the funds and then ask you to lower the invoice so that they a couple of days later can confiscate the watch in order to sell it at a government auction?

What a business idea, no wonder Italy is doing so great.

Big profit for small temporary cash outlay. Not too dissimilar from Rolex investigators or law enforcement buying replicas (cheap counterfeits) to build a case against someone. The replica seller guy loses his illegal inventory and then also gets to pay attorney's fees, court costs, fines, restitution, and possibly lose his job and place to live if he goes to jail or prison for long enough to get him evicted/foreclosed upon. And the lawyers and government pocket the proceeds.

[MonBK]

What ever you say.

[springer]

99% of the time it is the buyer, not the seller, that wants a lower declared value on an overseas shipment. Insurance must match the declared value with Parcel Pro and without a tax ID number, you are limited to $2500 insurance when shipping outside the USA.

[MonBK]

I forgot to mention that when it's time for court in Italy they send out 2 Carabineris to kidnap you and bring you back to Italy.

On top of that they make YOU pay for all 3 tickets!

[jban5]

Originally Posted by MonBK

I forgot to mention that when it's time for court in Italy they send out 2 Carabineris to kidnap you and bring you back to Italy.

On top of that they make YOU pay for all 3 tickets!

There must be some background story that if you weren't there you wouldn't know.

[harry in montreal]

I recently lost a deal because the buyer insisted on a lower customs value. Lying has its significant risks. In Canada you have to match the customs and insurance value. So if I could only insure something for $2k and we both are In a $6k deal then seller is exposed to a huge risk. Risk of loss. Risk of fines and charges for signing or trying to sign fraudulent paperwork. I was very disappointed in this. I always upset when duties kill a deal and one party is pushed to take a legal or monetary risk.

[joli160]

If I was a seller I would not have any problem going along with a buyers request as long money is in the bank and buyer takes responsibility in case insurance cover is voided.
After all, I am not employed by the government to collect taxes for them.

Nice story Tim, but a bit far fetched and not true. Whenever customs confiscate something they contact the notify dress and you have to pay up the dues and sometimes a fine. As simple as that.

[harry in montreal]

Ok, so let's say you ship a watch and somewhere the rolex is removed and a Rock is put into the box. Buyer gets it, freaks. Leaves bad eBay feedback or posts negatively on this forum. Either way even if buyer accepts responsibility , he will certainly reverse the payment and the deal will blow up. I think it's a really dumb risk to the seller. Even crossing a border to then ship has its risks. I know 2 people that got lifetime bans from going to the usa because of lying at a border crossing

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

Ok, so let's say you ship a watch and somewhere the rolex is removed and a Rock is put into the box. Buyer gets it, freaks. Leaves bad eBay feedback or posts negatively on this forum. Either way even if buyer accepts responsibility , he will certainly reverse the payment and the deal will blow up. I think it's a really dumb risk to the seller. Even crossing a border to then ship has its risks. I know 2 people that got lifetime bans from going to the usa because of lying at a border crossing

The subject of this thread is European governments acting as secret agents setting up stings to make money for their country.

[Snow-Dweller]

I can't help but feel that this threads is written from a very American perspective.

To me it's relatively simple...the higher the taxes (whatever the subject) the more motivation there is to cheat a little. US taxes are low. I live in a comparatively socialist state...

[jban5]

I agree with the above post in that as long as I am irrevocably paid for an item it makes no difference to me what someone in their own country wants to do in regards to paying their taxes in/to that country. I don't fancy myself to be the moral arbiter of anyone.

In order for me to agree to this I would have to be paid in full and there has to be no mechanism for recovery from me if something goes wrong. This excludes there being a payment with a credit card, or through a site like ebay or with paypal. Pretty much leaves it to a cash payment or bank transfer that can't be reversed.

[jban5]

Originally Posted by Clivek

I can't help but feel that this threads is written from a very American perspective.

To me it's relatively simple...the higher the taxes (whatever the subject) the more motivation there is to cheat a little. US taxes are low. I live in a comparatively socialist state...

That's what is hard to understand from the American perspective. Those European countries that have these high duties and other taxes have them so they can give their citizens Utopian societies. Everyone living in Utopia should be anxious to contribute to sustaining that Utopia.

[watchlovr]

What a pile of poo.
Strange fellow, strange tale indeed, far fetched? not half.

[datejust24]

Originally Posted by watchgroupcorp

Big profit for small temporary cash outlay. Not too dissimilar from Rolex investigators or law enforcement buying replicas (cheap counterfeits) to build a case against someone. The replica seller guy loses his illegal inventory and then also gets to pay attorney's fees, court costs, fines, restitution, and possibly lose his job and place to live if he goes to jail or prison for long enough to get him evicted/foreclosed upon. And the lawyers and government pocket the proceeds.

hmm.....

[harry in montreal]

MonBK, I know that the thread was drafted from the perspective of some covert sting. Because I had a deal collapse due to this and the issue of a false declaration being at the core of the matter, I still wanted to address it. I am a business person and I have seen extensive customs audits related to product codes and duty tarriff classifications. It's a pretty miserable thing to deal with. I have never heard of a sting related to an individual. I know of businesses that have had very bad outcomes on customs audits. I believe Pez and Doc Martins are common consumer products that had nasty customs adjustments which adversely impacted their sales

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

MonBK, I know that the thread was drafted from the perspective of some covert sting. Because I had a deal collapse due to this and the issue of a false declaration being at the core of the matter, I still wanted to address it. I am a business person and I have seen extensive customs audits related to product codes and duty tarriff classifications. It's a pretty miserable thing to deal with. I have never heard of a sting related to an individual. I know of businesses that have had very bad outcomes on customs audits. I believe Pez and Doc Martins are common consumer products that had nasty customs adjustments which adversely impacted their sales

[harry in montreal]

Clive, my effective rate of tax is 50.5%. It's just terrible as our socialized medical system has deteriorated

[Snow-Dweller]

Originally Posted by jban5

Everyone living in Utopia should be anxious to contribute to sustaining that Utopia.

Why? What could possibly make you think this?

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

Clive, my effective rate of tax is 50.5%. It's just terrible as our socialized medical system has deteriorated

I feel for you. I'm in France....effective tax is far higher than that. I own a small business (bars and restaurants)....try explaining to our US friends why I pay over 70% in what they call "payroll tax".

And that's just the payroll tax....

[harry in montreal]

Wow, 70% is so unjust. While I consider myself a Canadian that believes in good social programs, I can't justify that steep rate

[jban5]

Why? What could possibly make you think this?

Truthfully, I was just being facetious.