32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[Easy E]

Pretty mad about this. A DD40 first round of data. I can not imagine that this is going to look good at all at 24 and 48hrs. Sheesh.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Sheesh.

I have to ask ....
What lift angle have you set the Timegrapher to ?

I only ask this as your fully wound figures for amplitude are suprisingly low in all 5 positions.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

I see this, but with your higher spd rate your amplitude(s) are also higher = at least relative to most of mine. Is there an example of spd + with too low amplitude?

Also, from one of the articles you sent:

"It’s inversely proportional to the amplitude. That means that a decline in amplitude will cause the rate to increase."

I think this makes sense to me. Yet, in each of my cases so far I see exactly the opposite. Amplitude drops and spd drops accordingly. This is also what I have been able to gather from this thread. Low = low.

From the article:
------------------
"What exactly is the rate of a watch? It’s how fast or slow a watch runs in seconds per day.

It’s inversely proportional to the amplitude. That means that a decline in amplitude will cause the rate to increase. If the amplitude is low, a balance wheel doesn’t have to “travel” that far so it takes less time to complete a beat."
------------------

This statement, in its generalizing form, is wrong. It contradicts one basic aspect in horology, which is called isochronism.

Isochronism is the property of an oscillator, such as a simple pendulum or the balance wheel of a mechanical watch, of having a period that is independent of the oscillator amplitude.

In other words, a watch balance wheel that needs the same time to complete a swing (back and forth) no matter how large the swing amplitude is, has the property of isochronism.

Below a nice illustration for isochronism.

We see 5 differently colored pendulums that swing with different amplitudes within the same period. They swing isochronously.



Source: http://www.snglrtywatch.com/all/how-...atch-movement/

It is difficult (or even impossible) to build a perfectly isochronous mechanical watch movement, but one can come close to isochronism.

Of course, when caliber amplitudes drop below a certain value then the rates start to become strongly negative, which is normal for all mechanical movements because there is not enough remaining power reserve.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by charlesn

i have to ask ....
What lift angle have you set the timegrapher to ?

I only ask this as your fully wound figures for amplitude are suprisingly low in all 5 positions.

53

[CedCraig]

Originally Posted by Easy E

I can except low amplitude if that is the design intent, mind you degrading amplitude is whole different deal.

What are some examples of movements where the design intent is for the watch to run well with low amplitude? Seems like mechanical movements would be designed to have as high an amplitude as possible.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by CedCraig

What are some examples of movements where the design intent is for the watch to run well with low amplitude? Seems like mechanical movements would be designed to have as high an amplitude as possible.

I'm somewhat new to what is really going on under the hood. So I don't really know if there are any. I am trying to give Rolex the benefit of the doubt with the low amplitude on the 32XX movements - assuming it is the intent.

[Easy E]

Alright data people, I have some weirdness for you. This morning I was metering two watches - BLNR, DD40 (24hr). The DD40 read out something super strange in the DU position. I finished all 5 positions and went back and re-read DU and it looked more "normal." Crappy, but normal. Any ideas on what would cause this ->
1st Reading
Rate: -7.1, AMP 269, BE 2.6

2nd Reading
Rate: -1.3, AMP 234, BE 0

In the last two weeks or so I have taken a bunch of readings on 8-10 different watches. I have not yet seen a BE anywhere above .2-ish. Also with the 32XX it seems super weird that the spd rate would drop so much relative to other readings but the Amplitude (again relative to other readings) would go up so much.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

I'm somewhat new to what is really going on under the hood. So I don't really know if there are any. I am trying to give Rolex the benefit of the doubt with the low amplitude on the 32XX movements - assuming it is the intent.

No, 100 %.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Alright data people, I have some weirdness for you. This morning I was metering two watches - BLNR, DD40 (24hr). The DD40 read out something super strange in the DU position. I finished all 5 positions and went back and re-read DU and it looked more "normal." Crappy, but normal. Any ideas on what would cause this ->
1st Reading
Rate: -7.1, AMP 269, BE 2.6

2nd Reading
Rate: -1.3, AMP 234, BE 0

In the last two weeks or so I have taken a bunch of readings on 8-10 different watches. I have not yet seen a BE anywhere above .2-ish. Also with the 32XX it seems super weird that the spd rate would drop so much relative to other readings but the Amplitude (again relative to other readings) would go up so much.

I have seen and measured that very often, but never 24 hours after full winding.

The 32xx movement amplitudes become very unstable and start to oscillate towards the end of the power reserve (approx. 70 hours).

One can see such oscillations in several graphs I showed before in this thread.

It is indeed weird if that happens already 24 hours after full winding, which would be by far too early. Before that appeared what were the DD amplitudes, rates, and beat errors in all 5 positions? I expect most of them far below 200 degrees.

Please show us your updated data table (as in #3336) for 0, 12, 24 hours.

[saxo3]

Amplitude oscillations towards the end of the power reserve of two different 3235 movements measured in DU positions.
The sampling rate was 60 s (= one data point every minute!)

We also see the amplitude breakdowns, which appear reproducibly during the periods 23:00-01:00 and 05:00-08:00. Do not measure during these periods.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by saxo3

I have seen and measured that very often, but never 24 hours after full winding.

The 32xx movement amplitudes become very unstable and start to oscillate towards the end of the power reserve (approx. 70 hours).

One can see such oscillations in several graphs I showed before in this thread.

It is indeed weird if that happens already 24 hours after full winding, which would be by far too early. Before that appeared what were the DD amplitudes, rates, and beat errors in all 5 positions? I expect most of them far below 200 degrees.

Please show us your updated data table (as in #3336) for 0, 12, 24 hours.

I hit the 48hr mark tomorrow morning, should also be able to get 36hr measurements tonight. Look for updated data tomorrow.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Amplitude oscillations towards the end of the power reserve of two different 3235 movements measured in DU positions.
The sampling rate was 60 s (= one data point every minute!)

We also see the amplitude breakdowns, which appear reproducibly during the periods 23:00-01:00 and 05:00-08:00. Do not measure during these periods.

Very nice chart. Thanks.

[Easy E]

Is there an estimated success rate on repairs currently?

[sheldonsmith]

Mine required two trips to the RSC.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by sheldonsmith

Mine required two trips to the RSC.

How long ago was the second trip back? Are you satisfied the issue is resolved?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

How long ago was the second trip back? Are you satisfied the issue is resolved?

The second repair of Sheldon's 126600 was in 05/2021, his TG results from 11/2022 were very good, watch sold now (see 3264, 3267, 3292, 3322, 3323).

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Is there an estimated success rate on repairs currently?

No. "Success rate on repairs" also depends how one defines and checks it.

My 126600 Sea-Dweller (3235) was good for about 26 months after first RSC repair, then all three vertical amplitudes broke in again. I have NOT seen anyone quoting more than these 2 years.

[WatchMySix]

Can someone give me the 'cliff notes' of the highlights / lowlights, where this threads at or findings of this thread? Fascinating thread, but hard to pull out the important data sets in 3000 plus posts.


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[Easy E]

Originally Posted by WatchMySix

Can someone give me the 'cliff notes' of the highlights / lowlights, where this threads at or findings of this thread? Fascinating thread, but hard to pull out the important data sets in 3000 plus posts.


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The just add water version:
The 32XX movements appear to have an issue in that they run at low amplitude, tend to have degrading amplitude and tend to run slow, which appears to get progressively worse over time. YMMV

[Easy E]

Data from my BLNR - it is actually running fast, which I did not expect.

[Easy E]

Data from my DD40. This one makes me mad - real mad.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by WatchMySix

Can someone give me the 'cliff notes'

The best precis of this thread can only really be done by you.

Reading the entire thread really does not take much effort at all and there is so much to be learnt that we would not like to ruin your fun.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Data from my DD40. This one makes me mad - real mad.

I almost joined you in the "Mad House".

Reading your figures (results) almost tipped me over the edge.

The only really good way to comprehend your figures is by showing them in a graph format.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Data from my BLNR - it is actually running fast, which I did not expect.

An observation I have seen in your 2 charts of today .......

Do you have two TimeGraphers ? You seem to be measuring two watches at the same time.

If you have just the one (Which is what I have) I can only measure one watch at a time as it stays all the time on the arm of my TimeGrapher. Moving the watch will inevitably cause some movement and therefore even add to your winding /Amplitude.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Data from my DD40.

I have not understood the DD40 Results you posted for the first 5 readings ... Worn .... and then the 5 positions ..... Does this mean the you wore the watch for a period of time and then took measurements before the full wind and so on ?

[WatchMySix]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

The best precis of this thread can only really be done by you.

Reading the entire thread really does not take much effort at all and there is so much to be learnt that we would not like to ruin your fun.

Yes sir, lots of bits and pieces in there though that are almost incomprehensible.

@EasyE thanks for sharing brother, that DD40 needs a hard look . Those numbers are scary 🫠.


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[Easy E]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

I have not understood the DD40 Results you posted for the first 5 readings ... Worn .... and then the 5 positions ..... Does this mean the you wore the watch for a period of time and then took measurements before the full wind and so on ?

Correct. Worn is random. Then full wind -> read, sit -> read, etc.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

An observation I have seen in your 2 charts of today .......

Do you have two TimeGraphers ? You seem to be measuring two watches at the same time.

If you have just the one (Which is what I have) I can only measure one watch at a time as it stays all the time on the arm of my TimeGrapher. Moving the watch will inevitably cause some movement and therefore even add to your winding /Amplitude.

Just one meter. The watches sit until the next reading cycle. I have a few to wear in the mean time. I’ll post a pic to demonstrate my setup, it’s pretty straightforward. So, there is a good 20-30 minutes difference in any given point of measurement period between the two watches. I read all five positions with each watch with a couple of minutes rest between each reading. I don’t really believe I am moving the timepiece enough to throw off the amp measurement and I believe the 20-30 minutes latency in 0, 12, 24, 48 between the two watches is pretty close to irrelevant.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

I almost joined you in the "Mad House".

Reading your figures (results) almost tipped me over the edge.

The only really good way to comprehend your figures is by showing them in a graph format.

Scared of tables? I understand. I’ll get them converted to graphs. May take a day or so, I’m going to be a bit busy at work the next day or so. More to follow.

[machine=art]

Greetings knowledgable enthusiasts!--First post here.

I've been reading this valuable forum for some time now and really didn't believe I had much to contribute, until now.

I'm a lifelong watch nerd and have slowly and methodically moved into the world of attainable luxury watches. I've worked hard and saved long to arrive at a point where I can acquire pieces I've long researched.

Five years ago I purchased my first Rolex, an 114060. I purchased this watch for so many reasons other than its popularity and brand. It isn't everything I want in a watch but it's close.

I was excited by the incremental tweaks introduced in the 124060 and 126610ln. After living with the 114060 (and its beautiful symmetry) I decided I wanted a date function since I was always asking my partner multiple times a day: "What it the date?". And, with my lousy unaided vision, the AR coating and larger hands of the 12 series actually make a difference.

I registered my interest with a couple AD's and began the wait associated with popular models in conjunction with the "market forces" we are all familiar with. I'm patient.

10 days ago I picked up a 126610ln sub-date with the 3235 machine.

The first day of ownership it lost 5 or so seconds. I ignored it and attributed the lost time, though minimal, to a lack of full windup and no knowledge of the idiosyncrasies of my individual unit regarding manual regulation and positional variances. The second day, after a full wind it lost additional time.
Moderately concerned, I sought out a watchmaker with a timegrapher. After some debate about lift angle the results were apparent...LOW AMPLITUDE (!).
[At least low amplitude when compared to known/expected values of many mechanical movements currently in the wild.]

I was deflated a bit more than I imagined.

My 114060 with its 3130 runs quick, has been regulated once under warranty and though 2.5 seconds fast a day, is stable and operates with an amplitude at the very top end of normal (300-310 deg.).

Surprisingly over several days up until this morning the new watch was running about -.5 seconds a day according to my tracker app and certainly within the superlative claim. Then all of a sudden this afternoon it lost 15 seconds in 6 hours. I decided it was time to have a discussion with my AD. But, before the call, I wanted to be certain I had objective data to share. So, I went to another AD with an in-house service center to conduct another amplitude test. The results were even worse.

Maybe this is an anomaly and I received a unit from one end of the bellcurve but something is not well with my long awaited watch.

For the record, I did not respond to the poll in the beginning of this discussion.

TBC