The Rolex Forums   The Rolex Watch

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX


Go Back   Rolex Forums - Rolex Watch Forum > Rolex & Tudor Watch Topics > Vintage Rolex Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 29 January 2018, 10:04 PM   #301
tostan
"TRF" Member
 
tostan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: France
Watch: Submariner 5513
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer View Post
It could definitely be original or possibly altered by an unscrupulous seller that has figured out a way to tint or replace the lume with a darker color.
when I see a lot of 5513 sold by HQ MILTON (photo example)
the majority are lemon yellow
I hear he's buying them in Hong Kong.
is it possible that naturally tritium can become very yellow.
is there any explanation

tostan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 January 2018, 12:04 AM   #302
SubKing
"TRF" Member
 
SubKing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: USA
Watch: where do i start??
Posts: 3,254
Natural tritium can indeed become very yellow. It all depends if it has been stored away in darkness, that’s what makes tritium patina. The sun actually lightens the color. Just a natural reaction. Back then the dials and hands were made by different company’s and painted using different batches of tritium, so it’s normal for sometimes the hands to age differently than the dial. But the hands could also be replacements as well if the color is too far off. Just depends. Many people have said or thought that an exorbitant amount of pumpkin colored and extreme yellow colored examples come from the Far East and some believe many to be altered. It’s honestly a case by case basis and have to inspect the watch in person under 10 and 20x magnification to confirm. Jacek of HQ is a stand up guy, the piece above looks fine. I would say the tritium hands on this piece are not original to the watch. The color is too far apart
SubKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 January 2018, 12:34 AM   #303
tostan
"TRF" Member
 
tostan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: France
Watch: Submariner 5513
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubKing View Post
Natural tritium can indeed become very yellow. It all depends if it has been stored away in darkness, that’s what makes tritium patina. The sun actually lightens the color. Just a natural reaction. Back then the dials and hands were made by different company’s and painted using different batches of tritium, so it’s normal for sometimes the hands to age differently than the dial. But the hands could also be replacements as well if the color is too far off. Just depends. Many people have said or thought that an exorbitant amount of pumpkin colored and extreme yellow colored examples come from the Far East and some believe many to be altered. It’s honestly a case by case basis and have to inspect the watch in person under 10 and 20x magnification to confirm. Jacek of HQ is a stand up guy, the piece above looks fine. I would say the tritium hands on this piece are not original to the watch. The color is too far apart

Thank you for your explanations and clarifications
tostan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 January 2018, 01:35 AM   #304
roh123
"TRF" Member
 
roh123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Real Name: Per
Location: Sweden
Watch: Gilt Rolex
Posts: 2,946
The problem with altered watches are that they eventually pass through a trusted source. Bit naive to think a watch is fine just because it passes through ie Jacek. That said I do not think ”patinating” lume is common. Big risk to destroy a perfect dial just to make it stand out a bit. I doubt it is such a business that some people thinks.

Here’s a 5513 I wish I kept..

roh123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 January 2018, 02:54 AM   #305
SubKing
"TRF" Member
 
SubKing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: USA
Watch: where do i start??
Posts: 3,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by roh123 View Post
The problem with altered watches are that they eventually pass through a trusted source. Bit naive to think a watch is fine just because it passes through ie Jacek. That said I do not think ”patinating” lume is common. Big risk to destroy a perfect dial just to make it stand out a bit. I doubt it is such a business that some people thinks.

Here’s a 5513 I wish I kept..

Not Naïve at all Roh, if you were implying my advise was..?

there are reasons one would patinate lume, to cover stains to the plots, or to get hands to match better.. Yes there are silly risks involved but it's being done. One HK dealer comes to mind that still does this practice.. But aside from the lume; when it comes to trusted dealers, there is trust.

Dealers can make mistakes and often do. Especially when it comes to a watch they are selling, so it's more personal to the collector buying because he/she plans on keeping the piece, so the collector will look at the said piece with more scrutiny. There they may catch something the dealer didn't.

As stated above; you need to have the watch in hand to determine many of the times..
You cannot always tell from pictures because sellers will always photograph the watches in the best light possible.

I have dealt with Jacek personally, and one time I received a piece that I wasn't completely satisfied with and he took it back no questions asked and provided a full refund.

So in regards to my original advise, I stand by it.

Now if the OP's question was toward a different seller that wasn't well known, my advise would be different.
SubKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 January 2018, 03:11 AM   #306
roh123
"TRF" Member
 
roh123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Real Name: Per
Location: Sweden
Watch: Gilt Rolex
Posts: 2,946
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubKing View Post
Not Naïve at all Roh, if you were implying my advise was..?

there are reasons one would patinate lume, to cover stains to the plots, or to get hands to match better.. Yes there are silly risks involved but it's being done. One HK dealer comes to mind that still does this practice.. But aside from the lume; when it comes to trusted dealers, there is trust.

Dealers can make mistakes and often do. Especially when it comes to a watch they are selling, so it's more personal to the collector buying because he/she plans on keeping the piece, so the collector will look at the said piece with more scrutiny.

As stated above; you need to have the watch in hand to determine many of the times..
You cannot always tell from pictures because sellers will always photograph the watches in the best light possible.

I have dealt with Jacek and once, I received a piece that I wasn't completely satisfied with and he took it back no questions asked and provided a full refund.

So in regards to my original advise, I stand by it.

Now if the OP's question was toward a different seller that wasn't well known, my advise would be different.
Weren’t aimed at you at all.

Just highlighting the fact people often think watches are ok just because they come from dealer x, y or z. Watches nowdays travel through so many hands and I know from experience that information get lost in various steps. I know watches that I know had changed parts, relumed hands etc that later found their way to reputable dealers where the watches were described as original, untouched etc. Some work nowdays is almost impossible to detect and thinking dealers only find new, untouched watches is naive. Most watches today are sold and sold again so the only thing to trust is your own knowledge. That said there are better and worse dealers around and Jacek is for sure great. It’s just not a guarantee as I doubt even he can tell sometimes.

For hiding damage you need to relume. To clean a dial is another topic which usually still leave traces. But yes, it happens. I do however think soya, coffee and oven aren’t a common way to make dials more desirable. At least not good dials. Already damaged dials might be touched up but they will still not look perfect just because they got treatment. As for our friend Ben I think his reputation is by far exaggerated. Many times his pics made watches look way more patinated than they actually were in reality. Perhaps some were altered but that creamy leather sofa, lighting and camera set up certainly helped the watches get that strong yellow patina. I also bet that many watches that Ben sold to collectors later found their way to Jacek and other great dealers. It’s just how the market works.

Speaking of Ben; the reason for him getting banned everywhere was not that watches were touched up. He got banned because he couldn’t describe watches properly. He still deals as far as I know and most watches are great. You just need to be able to judge for yourself.
roh123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 January 2018, 04:15 AM   #307
swish77
2024 Pledge Member
 
swish77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Real Name: Aaron
Location: CT/NYC
Watch: ing the time!
Posts: 6,772
Quote:
Originally Posted by roh123 View Post
Speaking of Ben; the reason for him getting banned everywhere was not that watches were touched up. He got banned because he couldn’t describe watches properly. He still deals as far as I know and most watches are great. You just need to be able to judge for yourself.
Not to hijack the thread ... but I agree about NBTimes. There were only rumors/accusations about Ben's watches. I couldn't find one thread on any forum with a substantiated claim about relumed/altered dials on one of his watches. Not one. He still sells through Instagram, and yes, his watches often have great patina.
swish77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 January 2018, 05:42 AM   #308
springer
2024 Pledge Member
 
springer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 17,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by roh123 View Post
Weren’t aimed at you at all.

Just highlighting the fact people often think watches are ok just because they come from dealer x, y or z. Watches nowdays travel through so many hands and I know from experience that information get lost in various steps. I know watches that I know had changed parts, relumed hands etc that later found their way to reputable dealers where the watches were described as original, untouched etc. Some work nowdays is almost impossible to detect and thinking dealers only find new, untouched watches is naive. Most watches today are sold and sold again so the only thing to trust is your own knowledge. That said there are better and worse dealers around and Jacek is for sure great. It’s just not a guarantee as I doubt even he can tell sometimes.

For hiding damage you need to relume. To clean a dial is another topic which usually still leave traces. But yes, it happens. I do however think soya, coffee and oven aren’t a common way to make dials more desirable. At least not good dials. Already damaged dials might be touched up but they will still not look perfect just because they got treatment. As for our friend Ben I think his reputation is by far exaggerated. Many times his pics made watches look way more patinated than they actually were in reality. Perhaps some were altered but that creamy leather sofa, lighting and camera set up certainly helped the watches get that strong yellow patina. I also bet that many watches that Ben sold to collectors later found their way to Jacek and other great dealers. It’s just how the market works.

Speaking of Ben; the reason for him getting banned everywhere was not that watches were touched up. He got banned because he couldn’t describe watches properly. He still deals as far as I know and most watches are great. You just need to be able to judge for yourself.
X2. Well put.
__________________
Member of NAWCC since 1990.

INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP
Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics.
springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 January 2018, 06:58 AM   #309
Kingface66
2024 Pledge Member
 
Kingface66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: The Empire State
Watch: 1966 Rolex 5513
Posts: 3,407
It should come as no secret that Classic Watch Repair advertises dial work/restoration on their website, which shares the same lume shade of yellow that Ben offered on a lot of his watches. If one of these worked-on watches, like Roh mentions, traveled through so many hands, I imagine it'd be hard to state definitively what alterations took place and by when and whom.

See second pic
http://www.classicwatchrepair.com/en...al-restoration
Kingface66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 January 2018, 07:22 AM   #310
rolstaff
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Real Name: Juergen
Location: Utah
Watch: GMT
Posts: 308
My daily wearer....



rolstaff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 January 2018, 10:34 AM   #311
JasonBetts
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Indonesia
Posts: 423
Thanks to Springer, Roh, Lee and other vintage GMT enthusiasts here, acquired this transitional 16750 6.9m serial. Just a months ago, the seller asked if I wanted to sell it back to him for usd2500 more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
JasonBetts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 January 2018, 11:00 AM   #312
thomaspp
"TRF" Member
 
thomaspp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: N/A
Posts: 11,136



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Instagram: @watches_anonymous
thomaspp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 January 2018, 07:36 AM   #313
brockburst
2024 Pledge Member
 
brockburst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Chicago
Posts: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by roh123 View Post
The problem with altered watches are that they eventually pass through a trusted source. Bit naive to think a watch is fine just because it passes through ie Jacek. That said I do not think ”patinating” lume is common. Big risk to destroy a perfect dial just to make it stand out a bit. I doubt it is such a business that some people thinks.

Here’s a 5513 I wish I kept..

Reminds me a lot of mine, got it NOS from a EU dealer who sourced from HK.


brockburst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 January 2018, 08:39 AM   #314
lee fowler
2024 Pledge Member
 
lee fowler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: UK
Watch: GMT
Posts: 2,507
My trusty used and abused 16750.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1841a.jpg (273.4 KB, 355 views)
__________________


Instagram: @lee1563
lee fowler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 31 January 2018, 06:58 PM   #315
billydgates
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: PI
Posts: 163
2 different shades same watch

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
billydgates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 January 2018, 08:33 PM   #316
tostan
"TRF" Member
 
tostan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: France
Watch: Submariner 5513
Posts: 45
on this watch.
the dial is it luminous in the dark ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brockburst View Post
Reminds me a lot of mine, got it NOS from a EU dealer who sourced from HK.


tostan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 February 2018, 07:00 AM   #317
brockburst
2024 Pledge Member
 
brockburst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Chicago
Posts: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by tostan View Post
on this watch.
the dial is it luminous in the dark ?
No.
brockburst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 May 2018, 05:03 AM   #318
springer
2024 Pledge Member
 
springer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 17,157
Model 1675, Mark V dial, circa 1977.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2sm.jpg (67.4 KB, 258 views)
__________________
Member of NAWCC since 1990.

INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP
Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics.
springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 May 2018, 12:06 PM   #319
DLRIDES
2024 Pledge Member
 
DLRIDES's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Real Name: Don
Location: NC/WY
Watch: Me
Posts: 4,586









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
”When citizens learn to vote themselves the treasury, they limit prosperity.”
DLRIDES is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 May 2018, 11:14 PM   #320
limenko
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Real Name: Milan
Location: Sydney
Posts: 898
Here is some patina.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
limenko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 May 2018, 11:27 PM   #321
rmlovett1
2024 Pledge Member
 
rmlovett1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Real Name: Richard
Location: GA
Watch: YTBD
Posts: 22,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer View Post
Model 1675, Mark V dial, circa 1977.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLRIDES View Post









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote:
Originally Posted by limenko View Post
Here is some patina.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Very nice!
rmlovett1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 May 2018, 11:32 PM   #322
blowfish89
"TRF" Member
 
blowfish89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Watch: 16800 Matte
Posts: 398
blowfish89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 May 2018, 11:58 PM   #323
CPRWATCH
"TRF" Member
 
CPRWATCH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Real Name: Paul
Location: Chester UK
Watch: Rolex GMT Master
Posts: 4,589
My 16800 matte dial from 82 , but it's more pumpkin than yellow though.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg image.jpeg (181.8 KB, 232 views)
CPRWATCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 May 2018, 12:04 AM   #324
Xantiagib
"TRF" Member
 
Xantiagib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Gibraltar
Posts: 203
Xantiagib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 May 2018, 02:24 AM   #325
swish77
2024 Pledge Member
 
swish77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Real Name: Aaron
Location: CT/NYC
Watch: ing the time!
Posts: 6,772
Even subtle yellow lume is very nice, especially when the dial/hands patina matches!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Daytona 6263 Kitchen Light-TRF.jpg (292.5 KB, 225 views)
swish77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 May 2018, 03:29 AM   #326
Richard Carver
"TRF" Member
 
Richard Carver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: US
Posts: 2,237
Former ingenue beginning to show her age a little...



That ancient gold print, faded black dial with yellow lume is still beautiful. Not bad for a 50 year old. :)
Richard Carver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 May 2018, 11:39 AM   #327
rmlovett1
2024 Pledge Member
 
rmlovett1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Real Name: Richard
Location: GA
Watch: YTBD
Posts: 22,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by swish77 View Post
Even subtle yellow lume is very nice, especially when the dial/hands patina matches!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xantiagib View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPRWATCH View Post
My 16800 matte dial from 82 , but it's more pumpkin than yellow though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blowfish89 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Carver View Post
Former ingenue beginning to show her age a little...



That ancient gold print, faded black dial with yellow lume is still beautiful. Not bad for a 50 year old. :)
Beautiful watches! great thread!
rmlovett1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 May 2018, 11:55 AM   #328
nikanarani
"TRF" Member
 
nikanarani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Bombay
Watch: is on my wrist
Posts: 315
nikanarani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 May 2018, 12:10 PM   #329
jfmiii
"TRF" Member
 
jfmiii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Watch: 16750/16800/126710
Posts: 1,371
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1172.JPG (103.5 KB, 195 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1151.JPG (102.5 KB, 196 views)
jfmiii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16 May 2018, 07:21 AM   #330
NOPDK
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: South Florida
Posts: 598
My patina options

there is something special about nicely aged tritium lume.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg DSCF5258 2.jpeg (77.0 KB, 183 views)
File Type: jpeg IMG_4291 2.jpeg (177.5 KB, 185 views)
File Type: jpeg IMG_4851 2.jpeg (90.2 KB, 188 views)
File Type: jpeg IMG_4757.jpeg (104.8 KB, 188 views)
File Type: jpeg IMG_4777 2.jpeg (235.3 KB, 482 views)
File Type: jpeg FullSizeRender-3.jpeg (105.6 KB, 191 views)
NOPDK is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Takuya Watches

Bobs Watches

My Watch LLC

OCWatches

DavidSW Watches

Coronet


*Banners Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.





Copyright ©2004-2024, The Rolex Forums. All Rights Reserved.

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Rolex is a registered trademark of ROLEX USA. The Rolex Forums is not affiliated with ROLEX USA in any way.