Continuation of Ceramic Trend

[Agustin_Nielsen]

Hi all,

With AP releasing more and more ceramic pieces, do we think we will ever see the standard RO & ROC in ceramic? Very curious as to how it would look…

[Reign]

Highly unlikely, they’re saving it for their high complication pieces.

Closest thing you’ll get to a mock up of a RO in ceramic is the black tourbillion.

[GB-man]

Never say never. Rolex has done a lot of things I did not foresee in the last few years, AP could as well.

If I had to bet on it, I would say no in the near future.

[GB-man]

double post

[thekman]

I just hope they bring back the ceramic divers. No logical reason to discontinue them.


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[lllouisv1126]

I really hope they can come out with a all black ceramic jumbo. In memory of Karl Lagerfeld and his famous all black jumbo.

[tcheeco]

Never! That’s what they told me from the HQ. It’s very difficult for their artisans to manufacture every single link of the bracelet, bezel, case, etc... with the brushed/polished effect. So every time we’ll see a full ceramic AP it will be with complication and +70k price tag

[lllouisv1126]

One day I hope.
The cheapest full ceramic RO is upwards of 100k, making it unattainable for most

[Agustin_Nielsen]

I understand what people are saying…but what about the ceramic offshore and diver?

[AK797]

I think so, the poor reception of the Code and the lacklustre one for the Odysseus shows just how hard it is to make new models so I suspect AP will have to start ceramic-ing other models eventually, esp as their CE finishing is their wheelhouse and they don't want other firms stealing a march on them here, PP are increasingly rolling out weird and wonderful colours just like AP, and Rolex will also have to more explore CE in future too.

[benlee]

If AP can bring the manufacturing of ceramic case in house, that can boast production and become possible, although I hope it remains niche. That way, ceramic pieces are more special / desirable.

[trfChris]

Originally Posted by Agustin_Nielsen

I understand what people are saying…but what about the ceramic offshore and diver?

It’s likely that the full ceramic bracelet is the most labor intensive part of the watch, so making the diver & 44 chrono with rubber straps are probably a lot less work.

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by tcheeco

Never! That’s what they told me from the HQ. It’s very difficult for their artisans to manufacture every single link of the bracelet, bezel, case, etc... with the brushed/polished effect. So every time we’ll see a full ceramic AP it will be with complication and +70k price tag

Don’t take everything you’re told as the gospel.
Ceramic only needs a material harder than itself in order to leave marks in it, since it comes out of the mould in a full gloss state, thereby having no requirement for polishing, unlike metals.
Since diamond grit abrasive paper exists, and they already have the jigs for the metal versions… guess what?

They have a vested interest in keeping full ceramic watches limited and at high prices – the profit margin is huge.
It was already great with the 15707, which I’d surmise has only 30-35% less ceramic in total.
Remember, there’re no hidden pins in the ceramic bracelet, the links are all screwed, so welding and grinding are two steps no longer required when assembling it.

[edo]

Agree with PJ_S... no one deny that AP ceramic finishing is second to none, but they marketed making of ceramic bracelet like some extraterrestrial hard job... and Zenith came with full ceramic bracelet for Defy line without that "hardest job on Earth" PR... profit margin for AP ceramic pieces is way higher than on gold ones and they want to keep it that way...

[msm2]

Originally Posted by Agustin_Nielsen

I understand what people are saying…but what about the ceramic offshore and diver?

They have 44mm Offshores already in Ceramic. The diver in the past has been done in ceramic a few times.

[Tomas Eriksson]

Have you seen the Finnish on the new zeniths? Their cases look like molded cheap plastic.
Hand finishing on ceramic is labour intensive. There is a reason why there is a big difference in finishing compared to a ceramic omega for example. Material is not expensive but finishing it by hand is

[edo]

Originally Posted by Tomas Eriksson

Have you seen the Finnish on the new zeniths? Their cases look like molded cheap plastic.
Hand finishing on ceramic is labour intensive. There is a reason why there is a big difference in finishing compared to a ceramic omega for example. Material is not expensive but finishing it by hand is

I stated that AP ceramic is second to none... didn't handled Defy with ceramic bracelet, I saw just the watch on rubber... I find Omega ceramic very good and definitely not cheap looking... Hublot Aerofusion in ceramic have also great finish...

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by Tomas Eriksson

...
Hand finishing on ceramic is labour intensive. There is a reason why there is a big difference in finishing compared to a ceramic omega for example. Material is not expensive but finishing it by hand is

Omega churn out significantly more ceramic pieces, so time allowed per piece versus MSRP will be a factor but, it could just as easily be what aesthetic look they were aiming for too.
If brushing ceramic takes longer to achieve the same finish as on steel, then that’s one thing, but it won’t be 5 times as long.
Just bear in mind that the Mohs scale isn’t linear, and the jump from sapphire (9) to diamond (10) is absolutely massive!
Corundum (sapphire) is around 2000 on the Vickers hardness scale, Diamond is ~10,000. That’s a fivefold difference.
By comparison, typical ceramic (AP, Hublot, Omega, etc, but not the recent superlight RADO models) is a high 7 on the scale, which puts it around the 1400 mark, so, with a sevenfold difference in hardness, diamond grit paper will go through ceramic like a hot knife does butter.
As a consequence, a few strokes over it, and the part will be finished – slightly glib, but you get the gist.

Just to complete the picture, 904L and 316L are mid-400s, which is 4.5, and assuming they use aluminium oxide grit, then their finish is achieved by using material which is just over 4 times harder.

[neogump]

According to AP internal material，black ceramic is 7 times harder than steel，while white ceramic is 9 times harder.

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[PJ S]

^
Two realities:
1) They’re referring to a different scale (Brinell or Rockwell), although to my best recollection, neither have a greater range, which would give a 7-9x factor.
2) They’re talking out of their rear end.