Urgent advice needed on my 16760 Fat Lady

[shou.biao.kuang]

Hi TRF folks,

I am in a sticky situation now. I have just purchased a Rolex GMT-Master II16760 aka "Fat Lady" off a seller on another forum and had the watch checked out by RSC two days ago. It turned out that the dial is a refurbished (termed so by RSC) dial or also known as refinished/redone/recon/touched up dial by TRF folks here.

RSC also confirmed verbally to me that a refurbished dial is considered a fake dial to them and any Rolex watch found to have refurbished parts, be it a small tiny part of the watch, they will not repair or service the watch unless a genuine, untouched dial or part is put back into the watch.

Although the dial on this watch is a Rolex dial, the dial had been refurbished by an unauthorized third party and hence it is considered as having been tampered with by RSC. As such, they mentioned to me that they will not honor any defect on any Rolex watch, even if its warranty is still valid (if any).

Also, they will not confirm if the dial on this watch is the correct dial used on this model of the watch since it has been tampered with.

Moreover, if the owner (me) insisted on having this watch serviced by RSC, they will have to have the dial changed to a genuine, untouched Rolex dial which could cost more than USD800 (estimated).

In view of the above, I have the following questions any bro out there can help chip in would be greatly appreciated. I will upload the pics in a separate post for post-width sake.


1. Is that how RSC works as described above when it comes refurbished dial? I hope the RSC lady did not bull me on that.

2. Do I have a case against the seller? It was listed as “original T<25” dial” in his ads. No mention of redone/recon etc in the ads. Can this be considered misrepresentation?

3. As a dial forms a major part of collecting Rolex, would this devalue the watch greatly? Like 30% - 50% off? Since it was discontinued long ago, I assume getting another dial will be tough.

3. Since RSC do not provide written confirmation, what proof can I provide to the seller that his dial is a touched up one?

4. etc etc etc questions…..

Thanks bros for chipping in with your advice as long as they ring true.

SBK.

[shou.biao.kuang]

Upper half of dial PIC 1

[Al1969]

I'm sure others will chime in on this one. I've learned here on TRF that Rolex will replace parts not deemed 'native' to the watch. I think you should also raise the issue with the seller.

[shou.biao.kuang]

Lower half of dial PIC 1

*note: the white dot at the left bottom of II is not lint on the watch!

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by shou.biao.kuang

Hi TRF folks,

I am in a sticky situation now. I have just purchased a Rolex GMT-Master II16760 aka "Fat Lady" off a seller on another forum and had the watch checked out by RSC two days ago. It turned out that the dial is a refurbished (termed so by RSC) dial or also known as refinished/redone/recon/touched up dial by TRF folks here.

RSC also confirmed verbally to me that a refurbished dial is considered a fake dial to them and any Rolex watch found to have refurbished parts, be it a small tiny part of the watch, they will not repair or service the watch unless a genuine, untouched dial or part is put back into the watch.

Although the dial on this watch is a Rolex dial, the dial had been refurbished by an unauthorized third party and hence it is considered as having been tampered with by RSC. As such, they mentioned to me that they will not honor any defect on any Rolex watch, even if its warranty is still valid (if any).

Also, they will not confirm if the dial on this watch is the correct dial used on this model of the watch since it has been tampered with.

Moreover, if the owner (me) insisted on having this watch serviced by RSC, they will have to have the dial changed to a genuine, untouched Rolex dial which could cost more than USD800 (estimated).

In view of the above, I have the following questions any bro out there can help chip in would be greatly appreciated. I will upload the pics in a separate post for post-width sake.


1. Is that how RSC works as described above when it comes refurbished dial? I hope the RSC lady did not bull me on that. Sounds normal for them.

2. Do I have a case against the seller? It was listed as “original T<25” dial” in his ads. No mention of redone/recon etc in the ads. Can this be considered misrepresentation? Yes, you have a case

3. As a dial forms a major part of collecting Rolex, would this devalue the watch greatly? Like 30% - 50% off? Since it was discontinued long ago, I assume getting another dial will be tough. Closer to 30% I guess

3. Since RSC do not provide written confirmation, what proof can I provide to the seller that his dial is a touched up one? None, apparently

4. etc etc etc questions…..

Thanks bros for chipping in with your advice as long as they ring true.

SBK.

See comments above, but what sounds off is a the dial price. I had the RSC my 5513 overhauled with a new dial and hands, crown, for about $800 last year. Do they mean the whole package , or just the dial?

Edit: just seen your pics...that is a horrible redial.

[shou.biao.kuang]

Swiss - T<25 pic 1

[Al1969]

* disclaimer - not an expert here but that looks like it was done with white-out.

[shou.biao.kuang]

Originally Posted by Al1969

I'm sure others will chime in on this one. I've learned here on TRF that Rolex will replace parts not deemed 'native' to the watch. I think you should also raise the issue with the seller.

Originally Posted by Al1969

* disclaimer - not an expert here but that looks like it was done with white-out.

Thanks AL1969. Like what Adam said, poorly done :(

[shou.biao.kuang]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

See comments above, but what sounds off is a the dial price. I had the RSC my 5513 overhauled with a new dial and hands, crown, for about $800 last year. Do they mean the whole package , or just the dial?

Edit: just seen your pics...that is a horrible redial.

Thanks Adam for your point for point input. I didn't ask further as I was very disappointed with the dial, having been looking forward for the set to arrive for weeks.

Yes, the redial was horrible. Even my amateurish eyes can tell it straight away!

[Old Expat Beast]

Got a link to the original ad?

[shou.biao.kuang]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Got a link to the original ad?

Hi Adam,

Yes but am I allowed to put it here?

[Old Expat Beast]

Sure, why not? Or you can send me a PM if you prefer.

[shou.biao.kuang]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Sure, why not? Or you can send me a PM if you prefer.

Hi Adam,

Thanks for your offer to help. I will PM you instead. I didn't wanna stir up anything with the seller (yet) and wanna seek advice first before considering my recourse. Unless he refused to refund or compensate or deny any wrongdoing (!), then I might list him out here

[Old Expat Beast]

PM received. If those are the biggest pictures available (I couldn't expand them) then he's obviously misrepresenting the watch. It's impossible to see the refinishing on those pics (I'm looking on a 21-inch iMac). The problem is that you would have to send the watch back to USA, which could be tricky.

[padi56]

Perhaps the OP should leave the vintage watches to the experts, or use the same diligence as he does on modern dials like the 16610LV Mk 1,2,3,4,5,6 or any other Mk LV dial.

[shou.biao.kuang]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

PM received. If those are the biggest pictures available (I couldn't expand them) then he's obviously misrepresenting the watch. It's impossible to see the refinishing on those pics (I'm looking on a 21-inch iMac). The problem is that you would have to send the watch back to USA, which could be tricky.

Yes, there seemed to be an intention to misrepresent here and hence the tiny pics. I rely solely on the wordings on the ads to purchase the watch.

And yes, I know it is tricky and a huge headache that I have now... sight**

[shou.biao.kuang]

Originally Posted by padi56

Perhaps the OP should leave the vintage watches to the experts, or use the same diligence as he does on modern dials like the 16610LV Mk 1,2,3,4,5,6 or any other Mk LV dial.

What a time to rub it in instead of being sympathetic Pete...

Too trusting on the seller is probably my downfall, not because of poor due diligence. He has both domestic and international references to his name!

[padi56]

Originally Posted by shou.biao.kuang

What a time to rub it in instead of being sympathetic Pete...

Too trusting on the seller is probably my downfall, not because of poor due diligence. He has both domestic and international references to his name!

Not trying to rub it in expect he/she sent pictures or you viewed pictures before you bought even with my poor old eyes I can see the dial has been touched up.Sometimes a lesson in the vintage world can be learned the hard way by yourself not being so diligent in checking the dial.And if he/she is like you say got good international references then I am sure he/she will try to rectify it,we all make mistakes but hopefully we learn from these mistakes.

[ADINVA]

The only solution I can see (apart from seeking a direct recourse from the seller...who I think is very likely to ignore you) is to wait patiently and acquire a used 16760 dial through this forum. *fingers crossed* Do not let RSC replace your dial...once it is replaced, it will be the Swiss Made dial and no longer period correct. That will also greatly reduce the value of your 16760.

Sorry to learn of your terrible experience.

[crowncollection]

Contact the seller

[Britexpat76]

I would contact the seller before posting this on a public forum.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Britexpat76

I would contact the seller before posting this on a public forum.

Same here
Don't make any assumptions about how the seller will react until you speak with him. Also, I'd encourage you to write and follow that up with a call. A conversation is always best to gauge someone's willingness to resolve a conflict, IMO

[JustinK]

Contact the seller and maybe they can help you source (and pay) for a correct dial. If they refuse I would post a wtb here and on the vintage marketplace. I could be wrong but I do not think these dials are that hard to find.

Before naming the seller I would give them a chance to correct the situation.

[shou.biao.kuang]

Originally Posted by crowncollection

Contact the seller

Will do that now that I am clearer on what's available for me. thanks too.

Originally Posted by Britexpat76

I would contact the seller before posting this on a public forum.

My intention is to have this resolved amicably and hence I chose not to list him here. I need to know my options and rights, and hence this thread. Would be good to know if its a NO from him or he chose to ignore my attempting to contact him. Thanks too.

Originally Posted by brandrea

Same here
Don't make any assumptions about how the seller will react until you speak with him. Also, I'd encourage you to write and follow that up with a call. A conversation is always best to gauge someone's willingness to resolve a conflict, IMO

Will take your advice too and update this thread once the issue is resolved. thanks too.

[shou.biao.kuang]

Originally Posted by padi56

Not trying to rub it in expect he/she sent pictures or you viewed pictures before you bought even with my poor old eyes I can see the dial has been touched up.Sometimes a lesson in the vintage world can be learned the hard way by yourself not being so diligent in checking the dial.And if he/she is like you say got good international references then I am sure he/she will try to rectify it,we all make mistakes but hopefully we learn from these mistakes.

Ok Pete. I will take it that you meant no such negative intention.

I was too trusting of him and whatever that was presented and written on the ads. Words like "original T<25 dial" and "an unmolested" watch were used.

These pics were taken by me and those he sent over were not as closed up. Had I had these, I would have known the redial done to the dial. The night before heading down to RSC, I have already knew the recon done to the dial using a loupe but would need an expert to concur with me. Who better to do that than RSC....

[shou.biao.kuang]

Originally Posted by JustinK

Contact the seller and maybe they can help you source (and pay) for a correct dial. If they refuse I would post a wtb here and on the vintage marketplace. I could be wrong but I do not think these dials are that hard to find.

Before naming the seller I would give them a chance to correct the situation.

It will not be cheap to source for the right dial although that is also an option. Let's see what he says first. thanks Justin.

[TimeToGo]

Please PM me his information. I think he is a new member of this forum.

[azguy]

He should take the watch back and refund your money no questions asked.

[1655hunter]

The question I think needs to be asked is did you pay top dollar for the watch? If so and you paid for and expected a perfect untouched original watch then the seller should refund you. However, if you paid 4-5 K for it , it is a real rolex and a refinished dial was an uncommon thing to do at one time. I think the price point would be the issue..


P.S. Rolex HATES dealing with their vintage watches, they want you to buy a new watch. Also they look for a reason to refuse service and like to say nasty things about your watch. Some years ago I brought my explorer in for a new plexi and at first they refused saying the watch was more then 30 years old, I pointed out to them that they had just replaced one on my 5512 which is older (1967) to which they contorted their faces and relented. When they handed me the explorer back I was told "Keep it away from water, it's been over polished, you have had it serviced from an independent, it is older then 30 years, we will not service it again". I left never to return.

[swish77]

If this is a good seller, he will take the watch back and refund your money, including shipping. (Curious about whether you checked out this seller's feedback/references before making the purchase.) If this is a bad seller, he could argue that his description was accurate: The dial IS an original Rolex dial. It's just been refinished. Of course, that's BS and it should have been disclosed, but technically speaking, it's accurate and this is how bad sellers take advantage of unsuspecting buyers. Good luck.