Is this 1970 Sub genuine?

[fflump]

Hi-I've been offered for sale this 1970 Sub. It looks Kosher but I am more an expert on new watches not vintage.

Does anyone have any opinion? It would be really helpful to hear from the experts and what they think of the condition and value?

[harry in montreal]

The band is more modern and you need to post better pics of it. The dial is really clean. I can't remember if a service dial has the sub above the depth or vice versa. I am sure others can confirm. This is key

[fflump]

Yes the dial lume is not as yellow as I'd expect.
I think the Sub is below the depth in the 5512 model, which I'm guessing this is.

[vintagehartmann]

matte dial 5513, it looks like.

[watchlovr]

(Does the number on the guarantee match the case number on the watch?)


By my reckoning, 28 million is a 1971 case number.
How could a case manufactured in 1971 be sold in 1970?

[fflump]

Originally Posted by watchlovr

(Does the number on the guarantee match the case number on the watch?)


By my reckoning, 28 million is a 1971 case number.
How could a case manufactured in 1971 be sold in 1970?

Interesting-
According to these websites it would be a 1969 case?

https://www.bernardwatch.com/Rolex-Serial-Numbers
http://www.watches.co.uk/rolex-serial-numbers/

[fflump]

Originally Posted by watchlovr

(Does the number on the guarantee match the case number on the watch?)


By my reckoning, 28 million is a 1971 case number.
How could a case manufactured in 1971 be sold in 1970?

Looking at various sites e.g this one it looks like a 1969 case?

http://www.watches.co.uk/rolex-serial-numbers/

[offrdmania]

Originally Posted by watchlovr

(Does the number on the guarantee match the case number on the watch?)


By my reckoning, 28 million is a 1971 case number.
How could a case manufactured in 1971 be sold in 1970?

1971 starts at 2,900,000 serial. This watch is showing late 1970

[alwayshere]

be careful of this watch.

This watch is based in Sydney and a local watchmaker warned me that this came into his shop with suspicious parts.

I passed on it.

[offrdmania]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

be careful of this watch.

This watch is based in Sydney and a local watchmaker warned me that this came into his shop with suspicious parts.

I passed on it.

It would depend on the price. If it is disclosed as to what has been replaced then it may be a good daily wearer instead of a collector piece.

[fflump]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

be careful of this watch.

This watch is based in Sydney and a local watchmaker warned me that this came into his shop with suspicious parts.

I passed on it.

How do you recognise this watch as being based in Sydney?
As far as I'm aware its the other side of the world!

[Gina Marie]

The polishing cloth is wrong. The anchor is a later mid 70s version. The paperwork is handwritten and should garner little or no premium.....the serial number and sale date are closer together than i would prefer. Box looks right. Case has been polished. Dial seems nice. Are the hands replaced?

[Gina Marie]

Is the backplate date stamped?

[springer]

2.8 million serial numbers can be found as early as 1 70 on case backs. I see no issues with the warranty booklet since they were used from around 1969-1971. Being that it is handwritten is not uncommon either.

[fflump]

Originally Posted by Gina Marie

Is the backplate date stamped?

This is the only pic I have of the back

[Rameez-Q]

I seen this advertised here at a silly price, not sure if it's a genuine advert.

URL: https://www.gumtree.com/p/watches/19...ner/1188668136

[swish77]

Originally Posted by springer

2.8 million serial numbers can be found as early as 1 70 on case backs. I see no issues with the warranty booklet since they were used from around 1969-1971. Being that it is handwritten is not uncommon either.

X2. The warranty paper also has a copyright from 1969, which would fit. Also, we all guess with serial numbers and try to pin down exact dates, but we don't know for sure. We only know approximate years/dates. Assuming everything else is legit, the sale date and serial number here wouldn't bother me, but I'd want to see the inside of the caseback for the date stamp.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

1971 starts at 2,900,000 serial. This watch is showing late 1970

Not correct, I have a 2.95 with caseback stamped 1970.

[Brisman]

Its on flea bay in Oz at an over the top BIN price, starting price is OTT in my opinion.

[exador]

Seller wants $18,000 AUD (approx $13,600 USD). Good luck with that

(Gumtree ad is a scam)

[offrdmania]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Not correct, I have a 2.95 with caseback stamped 1970.

Case backs are easily swapped. I looked on 3 different serial references and they all listed 1971 starting at 2.9 mil

[springer]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

Case backs are easily swapped. I looked on 3 different serial references and they all listed 1971 starting at 2.9 mil

Do you check the reference section here???

Here you go...

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=350245

There is a lot of incorrect info on the internet. I read a thread the other day on GMT dials at another web site and some member there was quoting facts from a web site as his source for his facts and when I went to read what he had found, it was so full of incorrect information that I wouldn't know where to respond to correct it all.

[watchlovr]

Originally Posted by springer

Do you check the reference section here???

Here you go...

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=350245

There is a lot of incorrect info on the internet. I read a thread the other day on GMT dials at another web site and some member there was quoting facts from a web site as his source for his facts and when I went to read what he had found, it was so full of incorrect information that I wouldn't know where to respond to correct it all.

I don't see your case back reference as being particularly accurate.
Who is to say any case back was born with any particular watch or even matched a case number date in the first place?
It is interesting but surely we must go by case numbers.

[offrdmania]

Originally Posted by springer

Do you check the reference section here???

Here you go...

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=350245

There is a lot of incorrect info on the internet. I read a thread the other day on GMT dials at another web site and some member there was quoting facts from a web site as his source for his facts and when I went to read what he had found, it was so full of incorrect information that I wouldn't know where to respond to correct it all.

IMO, case backs can easily be swapped for a multitude of reasons so I dont agree that your reference is 100% correct either. What evidence was used to create that list other than which case back someone said their watch came with? Is that case back to serial number reference directly from Rolex? If it is, then I stand humbly corrected.

[Vincent65]

Case-backs are rarely date-stamped to correspond 'exactly' to the implied date period of the mid-case serial number, in my experience. The case-backs often pre-dated the mid-cases, as did bracelets, but the lines are all blurred. As an example, my 1680 has "1/70" in the case-back, but the mid-case is 2.6mil which, I was reliably informed (according to Rolex's internal archive records), puts it at a c1971 production. Meanwhile, the bracelet is "3/69".

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by watchlovr

I don't see your case back reference as being particularly accurate.

Who is to say any case back was born with any particular watch or even matched a case number date in the first place?

It is interesting but surely we must go by case numbers.

So which of the innumerable serial charts is the definitive one? How did those charts make the date range determinations?


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[springer]

Originally Posted by watchlovr

I don't see your case back reference as being particularly accurate.
Who is to say any case back was born with any particular watch or even matched a case number date in the first place?
It is interesting but surely we must go by case numbers.

Do your own research then and make your own chart. Frankly, I don't find your comments relative, accurate or serious.

[offrdmania]

This is the list that I have always used.

Serial # ...........................Date

20000 .............................1927
22500 .............................1928
25000 .............................1929
26500 .............................1930
28000 .............................1931
28500 .............................1932
29000 .............................1933
32000 .............................1934
35000 .............................1935
37000 .............................1936
40000 .............................1937
55000 .............................1938
71000 .............................1939
90000 .............................1940
106000 ............................1941
150000 ............................1942
230000 ............................1943
270000 ............................1944
302000 ............................1945
400000 ............................1946
529000 ............................1947
570000 ............................1948
600000 ............................1949
650000 ............................1950
700000 ............................1951
800000 ............................1952
900000 ............................1953
10000 to 300000 ....1953 to 1957
350000 ............................1958
400000 ............................1959
550000 ............................1960
700000 ............................1961
800000 ............................1962
900000 ............................1963
1000000 ...........................1964
1200000 ...........................1965
1400000 ...........................1966
1600000 ...........................1967
1850000 ...........................1968
2300000 ...........................1969
2500000 ...........................1970
2900000 ...........................1971
3300000 ...........................1972
3750000 ...........................1973
3900000 ...........................1974
4250000 ...........................1975
4500000 ...........................1976
5000000 ...........................1977
5400000 ...........................1978
5950000 ...........................1979
6400000 ...........................1980
7000000 ...........................1981
7350000 ...........................1982
7750000 ...........................1983
8100000 ...........................1984
8600000 ...........................1985
9000000 ...........................1986
9500000 ...........................1987
R000001 ...........................1988
L000001 ...........................1989
E000001 ...........................1990
X000001 ...........................1991
N000001 ...........................1991
C000001 ...........................1992
S000001 ...........................1993
W000001 ..........................1994
T000001 ...........................1996
U000001 ...........................1997
A000001 ...........................1998
P000001 ...........................2000
K000001 ...........................2001
Y000001 ...........................2002
F000001 ...........................2003

D000001 ...........................2005
Z000001 ...........................2006
Z000001 ...........................2007
V000001 ...........................2008
G000001 ......................Mid 2010
Random Numbers .........Late 2010

[datejust24]

From the pics it looks quite nice IMO...

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

This is the list that I have always used.

Serial # ...........................Date

20000 .............................1927
22500 .............................1928
25000 .............................1929
26500 .............................1930
28000 .............................1931
28500 .............................1932
29000 .............................1933
32000 .............................1934
35000 .............................1935
37000 .............................1936
40000 .............................1937
55000 .............................1938
71000 .............................1939
90000 .............................1940
106000 ............................1941
150000 ............................1942
230000 ............................1943
270000 ............................1944
302000 ............................1945
400000 ............................1946
529000 ............................1947
570000 ............................1948
600000 ............................1949
650000 ............................1950
700000 ............................1951
800000 ............................1952
900000 ............................1953
10000 to 300000 ....1953 to 1957
350000 ............................1958
400000 ............................1959
550000 ............................1960
700000 ............................1961
800000 ............................1962
900000 ............................1963
1000000 ...........................1964
1200000 ...........................1965
1400000 ...........................1966
1600000 ...........................1967
1850000 ...........................1968
2300000 ...........................1969
2500000 ...........................1970
2900000 ...........................1971
3300000 ...........................1972
3750000 ...........................1973
3900000 ...........................1974
4250000 ...........................1975
4500000 ...........................1976
5000000 ...........................1977
5400000 ...........................1978
5950000 ...........................1979
6400000 ...........................1980
7000000 ...........................1981
7350000 ...........................1982
7750000 ...........................1983
8100000 ...........................1984
8600000 ...........................1985
9000000 ...........................1986
9500000 ...........................1987
R000001 ...........................1988
L000001 ...........................1989
E000001 ...........................1990
X000001 ...........................1991
N000001 ...........................1991
C000001 ...........................1992
S000001 ...........................1993
W000001 ..........................1994
T000001 ...........................1996
U000001 ...........................1997
A000001 ...........................1998
P000001 ...........................2000
K000001 ...........................2001
Y000001 ...........................2002
F000001 ...........................2003

D000001 ...........................2005
Z000001 ...........................2006
Z000001 ...........................2007
V000001 ...........................2008
G000001 ......................Mid 2010
Random Numbers .........Late 2010

How are these predictions made by whoever generated this list, and why is this the definitive list for you?

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, because I don't think anyone can know that. It's been my experience that any/every one of these lists is a suggestion of ranges with zero absolutes(at least as vintage is concerned).



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