eBay: Mens Rolex Submariner Seadweller 16660 vintage 1982..

[Orchi]

Err buddies...this Transitional Ref 16660 Sea-Dweller is being listed...
by eBay PowerSeller - extract244 (555 FB) of USA ...

The Seller would seem to have since
scored quite an impressive FB history in eBay...

In the relevant listing of the 16660 SD watch in eBay...
the description says...in BOLD...

Platinum Power Seller
Rolex Mens Seadweller Vintage
100% Authentic Rolex 100% Original

# Model: 16660 --
# Serial: "7,3##,### million serial 30-35 movement 1982 production era.
# Condition: Actual watch in photos. Movement serviced by our Master Watchmaker Certified AWCI for 30+ years
# Bracelet: Original Stainless Steel Oyster... Excellent condition. .. Folding clasp, locking clasp.
# Dial: Black Applied round baton and triangular markers in white gold with luminous inlay. Partly skeletonized hands in white gold with luminous inlay. White gold second hand with a skeletonized circle w/ luminous inlay. ..... Date window at 3o'clock. Sapphire crystle was not replaced. Has some small marks and scratches.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mens-Rolex-Subma...3A3%7C294%3A50

The Seller has described the watch quite in detail...
The watch looks to be a handsome specimen that possesses...
even the CORRECT features of the Original Heavy Oyster Bracelet
that was unique only to the modern Rolex Sea-Dweller Diving watches...
which includes...

1. Correct Flip-lock buckle...likely with 93160 bracelet links n 592 SEL...
2. Correct Diver Extension Link n hook deployment link...
3. Clean Case...
4. Clean Bezel assembly...
5. Clean Sapphire crystal...etc. etc. etc.

Also the watch carries a Service Warranty by the Seller for 2 years...
n The Seller also adds Money Back guarantee on the watch listing...

BUT Unfortunately...

A. The 16660 SD watch has the WRONG Dial which was released as Luminova Dial marked "SWISS" in 1999...
by ROLEX about 16 years after the relevant 16660 was said to be made...
in 1982 or so....n that Luminova Dial marked "SWISS" introduced by Rolex in 1999...
was PURELY meant to fit for Ref 16600 Sea-Dweller watch model...
which was 1st introduced by Rolex from...1989 until 2008.

The Original 16660 SD watch made in 1982 with that Case Serial Nos. "7,3xx,xxx"...
should have the "RARE" Matte Dial with Tritium markers n Hands...
in order to be 100% Originally Period CORRECT...

B. The 16660 SD watch has ALSO a set of New Replacement Luminova Hands...
instead of Tritium Hands that would have been CORRECT n Original to the
relevant watch.

Perhaps the Seller is NOT aware of such details...or the Seller
may have been over enthusiastic...
when listing the 16660 SD watch in eBay by claiming the watch to be in...
"100% Authentic Rolex 100% Original"

What says the "WatchOut" buddies here...?

NOTE: Under the "SWISS" plot on Dial...the minute indexes(3 nos.) can NO Longer be seen...
missing from under the 6 o'clock marker...

This was probably caused by using the WRONG Dial fitted onto the Cal. 3035 movement...that
was supposed to be fitted to its successor - Cal. 3135 movement for Ref. 16600 SD...instead.



Here's an example of the A Series Ref 16600 Sea-Dweller watch that has the
Original "SWISS" marked Luminova Dial...in 1999.

Do notice the 3 minute indexes under "SWISS" plot below the 6 o'clock marker...

[idk01]

Have a mate with the same watch, same vintage, definitely does not have that dial, should have the SWISS -T<25 under 6 O,clock position meaning tritium and hands too :-) Nice find my friend!

[Terry Newton]

Thank-you for the wonderful reporting Orchi. You make my small part, in the grand scheme of things, to be so easy.

Terry Newton

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by Terry Newton

Thank-you for the wonderful reporting Orchi. You make my small part, in the grand scheme of things, to be so easy.

Terry Newton

Come on, Terry...

How about:

DIALMISREPRESENTUS

[jeff hess]

nice reporting. Thaks Orchi. However, this one should not be taken down right?

For just a replacment dial and replacement hands?

Am I to understand that this is all Rolex but with replacement parts for restorative reasons?

THanks Jeff

[onkyo]

Great catch Buddy Orchi,

I have been looking for a matte dial triple 6 SD....

And this ain't it!

[tudorman8276]

...the seller will CORRECT his listing about the dial.

...obviously, as it stands now, it is NOT 100% ORIGINAL.

Stan.

[greekbum]

If that watch had the right dial and hands id be a buyer.Im not an expert and dont have expert credentials but I had 2 years ago a 1983 with a 81xxxx serial and it had a matte dial and hands I sold it and miss it.He may not be aware that the dial is probably a service replacement or else he wouldnt have stated 100% original.Its a nice watch though but finding the right dial and hands to bring it back to a piece that I would want will be hard and probably expensive.I ll keep looking for a matte dial example though.

[onkyo]

Originally Posted by jeff hess

nice reporting. Thaks Orchi. However, this one should not be taken down right?

For just a replacment dial and replacement hands?

Am I to understand that this is all Rolex but with replacement parts for restorative reasons?

THanks Jeff

I do believe the seller should correct his error/misrepresentation.

It is not simply a replacement dial .... it is the wrong replacement dial.

[greekbum]

Originally Posted by onkyo

I do believe the seller should correct his error/misrepresentation.

It is not simply a replacement dial .... it is the wrong replacement dial.

Pav I agree with you althought this is the watch out section the seller maybe reads this finds the right dial and hands and substantialy increases the value of his watch for his resale purposes.He should correct his error though.Its not 100% original

[solomon]

what if rolex service center does the replacement dial, would you call that a 'wrong' service replacement dial?

[onkyo]

I think the seller removed "100% original".

[Terry Newton]

Contrary to popular opinion, truth in advertising means just that. My goal would never be to remove a listing like this though, it should not be stated, by the seller, that it is 100% original, unless it is. Obviously E-Bay thought so as well since, the watch in question, no longer states; "100% original."

Terry Newton

[jeff hess]

Thanks for the comments.

And Thanks Terry.

Not to belabor the point and not to be all Clintonesque (depends on what the definition of "is" is) BUT to some, a 100 percent original Rolex "could" mean that every thing on the watch watch 100 percent Rolex made.

Semantics aside, this one is "middlin" at best and "should" certainly be scrutinized. But not taken down IMO.

Oh well.

Great job. Jeff

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by onkyo

I think the seller removed "100% original".

Err buddies...apparently not...

eBay invalidated it....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mens-Rolex-Subma...3A3%7C294%3A50



Actually...Orchi thinks somebody may have swapped out the Matte Tritium Dial n Hands...
to be sold for better $...

IF the watch was sent to RSC...it would have been possible...
that RSC would replace the original Matte Dial n Hands...
with the correct Service Replacement Matte Luminova Dial marked "SWISS"...
n Luminova Hands...which would be the correct service replacement parts for the watch.

So Orchi doesn't think RSC has done that kinda job...
by putting a later Dial belonging to Ref 16600 SD onto the 16660 SD...
that should have a Matte Dial...

Note: Service Replacement Matte Luminova Dial marked "SWISS" should be available...at the RSC.

Oh btw...the current 16660 SD having swapped with that
Dial belonging to the later production 16600 SD...
was apparently released in low production also...

IF one notices closely at the "ft" plot on the Dial...
the "ft" font is more erect in position...
as compared with the normal "ft" plot found on MOST modern Ref 16600 SD watches...
that is in sans sheriff fonts.

Years down the road...the Ref 16600 SD with such a straight up "ft" could be
regarded as...RARE collectible piece.

Here's the example of the A Series Ref 16600 SD...
that has the RARE Luminova Dial marked "SWISS" ...
having the straight up "ft" plot on Dial...
made in small nos. 1999 by Rolex...

[Bisquitlips]

Originally Posted by Terry Newton

Thank-you for the wonderful reporting Orchi. You make my small part, in the grand scheme of things, to be so easy.

Terry Newton

Yes!! Tremendous catch Orchi!!

[springer]

I believe ebay made the right decision here since the watch wasn't listed properly and was hyped as 100% original - whether this was done knowingly or mistakenly by the seller. I have no issues with someone selling vintage watches with replacement or conversion parts as long as it is properly described and not deceptive to potential buyers that believe they are buying something 100% original.

There are those on ebay, and some even show up here every now and then, that would have us accept a new definition of what 100% original should be. I think most right-minded members on the forum expect something that is 100% to be 100% and know the difference.

Altered, mismatched, or converted watches are not 100% correct or original. For anyone that can not understand that, no explanation is possible. Further, someone that knowingly tries to sell one of these altered, mismatched or converted watches as 100% original- especially when a major component of the watch - like the case, dial/hands, band or movement is not correct - would have to be one of very little integrity.

Nice catch Orchi. Hopefully this listing was a mistake by the seller and will be corrected in a future listing for some enthusiastic collector.

[jeff hess]

Well,

As you might guess, I think getting it taken down was harsh.

Vintage Rolexes wear out. they get bad dials, bad hands and bad crowns.

i have no issue with the taking down of watches of those who sell fakes or who sell vintage tudors with Rolex on them or with the HUGE amount of Rolex Presidents with fake bands sold on ebay.

But when an old watch needs repair, an owner or watchmaker or hobbyist tries very hard to make it as original as possible.

this guy sold a genuine old watch with apparently a genuine rolex dial that he (or the previous owner) had put on it to fix it.

now, he has a strike against him as a seller on ebay and indeed his ability to sell rolexes ever on ebay may over.

I love the fact that this forum roots out fakers and scammers but to try to have a watch taken down because of a genuine replacement dial is marginal thinking.

Jeff, others opinions may vary

[onkyo]

Originally Posted by springer

I believe ebay made the right decision here since the watch wasn't listed properly and was hyped as 100% original - whether this was done knowingly or mistakingly by the seller. I have no issues with someone selling vintage watches with replacement or conversion parts as long as it is properly described and not deceptive to potential buyers that believe they are buying something 100% original.

There are those on ebay, and some even show up here every now and then, that would have us accept a new definition of what 100% original should be. I think most right-minded members on the forum expect something that is 100% to be 100% and know the difference.

Altered, mismatched, or converted watches are not 100% correct or original. For anyone that can not understand that, no explanation is possible. Further, someone that knowingly tries to sell one of these altered, mismatched or converted watches as 100% original- especially when a major component of the watch - like the case, dial/hands, band or movement is not correct - would have to be one of very little integrity.

Nice catch Orchi. Hopefully this listing was a mistake by the seller and will be corrected in a future listing for some enthusiastic collector.

John,

Very well said. I could not agree with you more.

I think that most enthusiasts/collectors would agree with you as well - at least those without ulterior motives.

And obviously eBay agrees.

[tudorman8276]

Originally Posted by springer

I believe ebay made the right decision here since the watch wasn't listed properly and was hyped as 100% original - whether this was done knowingly or mistakingly by the seller. I have no issues with someone selling vintage watches with replacement or conversion parts as long as it is properly described and not deceptive to potential buyers that believe they are buying something 100% original.

There are those on ebay, and some even show up here every now and then, that would have us accept a new definition of what 100% original should be. I think most right-minded members on the forum expect something that is 100% to be 100% and know the difference.

Altered, mismatched, or converted watches are not 100% correct or original. For anyone that can not understand that, no explanation is possible. Further, someone that knowingly tries to sell one of these altered, mismatched or converted watches as 100% original- especially when a major component of the watch - like the case, dial/hands, band or movement is not correct - would have to be one of very little integrity.

Nice catch Orchi. Hopefully this listing was a mistake by the seller and will be corrected in a future listing for some enthusiastic collector.

...SAME for me.

...so very well stated and presented John!

...ORCHI.....FANTASTIC research and PRESENTATION also!

Stan.

[greekbum]

Originally Posted by springer

I believe ebay made the right decision here since the watch wasn't listed properly and was hyped as 100% original - whether this was done knowingly or mistakingly by the seller. I have no issues with someone selling vintage watches with replacement or conversion parts as long as it is properly described and not deceptive to potential buyers that believe they are buying something 100% original.

There are those on ebay, and some even show up here every now and then, that would have us accept a new definition of what 100% original should be. I think most right-minded members on the forum expect something that is 100% to be 100% and know the difference.

Altered, mismatched, or converted watches are not 100% correct or original. For anyone that can not understand that, no explanation is possible. Further, someone that knowingly tries to sell one of these altered, mismatched or converted watches as 100% original- especially when a major component of the watch - like the case, dial/hands, band or movement is not correct - would have to be one of very little integrity.

Nice catch Orchi. Hopefully this listing was a mistake by the seller and will be corrected in a future listing for some enthusiastic collector.

I am not one that wishes anybodys business or reputation to get harmed by an error in there listing they should be given every opportunity to correct what maybe an honest mistake.Was this guy given enough time?I see he changed his auction before it got cancelled?I emailed him and he told me he did have a matte dialed sea dweller for sale same year and vintage as the one in the auction and he responded to my question ASAP I am waiting on his pictures.

Can someone explain to me the following:
As far as ebay goes are there any rules or guidelines as how to list your vintage Rolex watch for sale?
Where does it start and where does it end?

Is the seller that states 100% original and authentic lying? when in fact the watch has been serviced 3 times in its life and wear and tear items are changed so that the watch works? Or it had some scratches and Rolex took them out and refinished the band and case. In my mind something can only be original once if it was ever touched after that its not original and than a new term must be used.What is the correct term and to who is it correct?
Is it Restored?
Well maintained?
Refurbished?
Look there are alot of flat out scams out there with 100% fake watches.
Is there a rulebook for how to list your watch if so point me in the right direction.
I love the watch out section I learn alot here.I want to contributing to it if I see something thats not right.

[tudorman8276]

Originally Posted by greekbum

I am not one that wishes anybodys business or reputation to get harmed by an error in there listing they should be given every opportunity to correct what maybe an honest mistake.Was this guy given enough time?I see he changed his auction before it got cancelled?I emailed him and he told me he did have a matte dialed sea dweller for sale same year and vintage as the one in the auction and he responded to my question ASAP I am waiting on his pictures.

Can someone explain to me the following:
As far as ebay goes are there any rules or guidelines as how to list your vintage Rolex watch for sale?
Where does it start and where does it end?

Is the seller that states 100% original and authentic lying? when in fact the watch has been serviced 3 times in its life and wear and tear items are changed so that the watch works? Or it had some scratches and Rolex took them out and refinished the band and case. In my mind something can only be original once if it was ever touched after that its not original and than a new term must be used.What is the correct term and to who is it correct?
Is it Restored?
Well maintained?
Refurbished?
Look there are alot of flat out scams out there with 100% fake watches.
Is there a rulebook for how to list your watch if so point me in the right direction.
I love the watch out section I learn alot here.I want to contributing to it if I see something thats not right.

...it was M I S - R E P R E S E N T E D.

...since he DID IN FACT change the listing, I do NOT think he was still forthcoming with any info about the dial.

Stan.

[onkyo]

Originally Posted by jeff hess

Well,

As you might guess, I think getting it taken down was harsh.

Vintage Rolexes wear out. they get bad dials, bad hands and bad crowns.

i have no issue with the taking down of watches of those who sell fakes or who sell vintage tudors with Rolex on them or with the HUGE amount of Rolex Presidents with fake bands sold on ebay.

But when an old watch needs repair, an owner or watchmaker or hobbyist tries very hard to make it as original as possible.

this guy sold a genuine old watch with apparently a genuine rolex dial that he (or the previous owner) had put on it to fix it.

now, he has a strike against him as a seller on ebay and indeed his ability to sell rolexes ever on ebay may over.

I love the fact that this forum roots out fakers and scammers but to try to have a watch taken down because of a genuine replacement dial is marginal thinking.

Jeff, others opinions may vary

Jeff,

This statement applies to MANY things in life.....

Just because it fits, doesn't necessarily mean you should stick it in there.

[springer]

Originally Posted by greekbum

I am not one that wishes anybodys business or reputation to get harmed by an error in there listing they should be given every opportunity to correct what maybe an honest mistake.Was this guy given enough time?I see he changed his auction before it got cancelled?I emailed him and he told me he did have a matte dialed sea dweller for sale same year and vintage as the one in the auction and he responded to my question ASAP I am waiting on his pictures.

Can someone explain to me the following:
As far as ebay goes are there any rules or guidelines as how to list your vintage Rolex watch for sale?
Where does it start and where does it end?

Is the seller that states 100% original and authentic lying? when in fact the watch has been serviced 3 times in its life and wear and tear items are changed so that the watch works? Or it had some scratches and Rolex took them out and refinished the band and case. In my mind something can only be original once if it was ever touched after that its not original and than a new term must be used.What is the correct term and to who is it correct?
Is it Restored?
Well maintained?
Refurbished?
Look there are alot of flat out scams out there with 100% fake watches.
Is there a rulebook for how to list your watch if so point me in the right direction.
I love the watch out section I learn alot here.I want to contributing to it if I see something thats not right.

Since you quoted me Greek, I'll respond. There are probably rules to listing items on ebay but I'm doubtful there are specific rules for vintage watches. The rules for listings that probably matter the most are; common sense, decency and, of course, honesty. A little hype to make the sale, or increase the value of a watch goes too far sometimes, but, exercise just a little common sense, which seems to be lacking in several listings, not only on ebay. but everywhere else these days.

If I have a 1972 GMT and the dial was replaced, no matter who replaced it, and it is a different style dial, it is not original. A replacement dial that is identical to the original would be original. Why wouldn't it, it is the exact same dial the watch came with or would have come with.

If I'm selling a 1972, 1675 GMT, that has a replacement gold surround dial, how can it be 100% original - this dial wasn't made for another 10 years. If it has a 1990 vintage genuine Rolex oyster band, it is not original - totally different band.

Original is original. If I take my 1968 Mustang to a Ford dealer and they replace my 302 CI motor with a 4.6 liter V-8, it is not original. Apply this same logic to a watch.

So how would I list this 1972 GMT: Original 1972 Rolex GMT, serviced twice by the RSC, dial was replaced in 1990 (or original Rolex replacement dial), original Rolex Oyster replacement band. (nowhere does it state 100% original. 100% original is used to DRAW ATTENTION, TO GET BUYERS TO LOOK AT THE AUCTION. I WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DECEPTIVE TO WRITE THAT AS A HEADER.)

I see these type of descriptions- with replacement parts listed as replacement parts - all the time on ebay. Many listing do not contain the proper descriptors, or listed replacement or conversion parts, and they end up here in the Watchout section of TRF.

List what you know about the watch, be honest, and you won't need to unnecessarily hype a watch to sell it or artifically inflate the value.

Yeah, these watches are old, have been worked over, worked on and worked under. That is why something being hyped as 100% original is rare and draws a premium, everyone knows that it has a premium value over an identical watch that was restored or has replacement parts. And, because everyone knows this, that is why sellers hype them as 100% original, to get the premium price...they are fishing for someone that doesn't know better.

Granted, some buyers do know the difference, but many don't.

Have a great day Greek, and all on TRF.

[greekbum]

Originally Posted by springer

Since you quoted me Greek, I'll respond. There are probably rules to listing items on ebay but I'm doubtful there are specific rules for vintage watches. The rules for listings that probably matter the most are; common sense, decency and, of course, honesty. A little hype to make the sale, or increase the value of a watch goes too far sometimes, but, exercise just a little common sense that seems to be lacking in several listings, not only on ebay but everywhere else these days.

If I have a 1972 GMT and the dial was replaced, no matter who replaced it, and it is a different style dial, it is not original. A replacement dial that is identical to the original would be original. Why wouldn't it, it is the exact same dial the watch came with or would have come with.

If I'm selling a 1972, 1675 GMT, that has a replacement gold surround dial, how can it be 100% original - this dial wasn't made for another 10 years. If it has a 1990 vintage genuine Rolex oyster band, it is not original - totally different band.

Original is original. If I take my 1968 Mustang to a Ford dealer and they replace my 302 CI motor with a 4.6 liter V-8, it is not original. Apply this same logic to a watch.

So how would I list this 1972 GMT: Original 1972 Rolex GMT, serviced twice by the RSC, dial was replaced in 1990 (or original Rolex replacement dial), original Rolex Oyster replacement band. (nowhere does it state 100% original. 100% original is used to DRAW ATTENTION, TO GET BUYERS TO LOOK AT THE AUCTION. I WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DECEPTIVE TO WRITE THAT AS A HEADER.)

I see these type of descriptions- with replacement parts listed as replacement parts - all the time on ebay.

List what you know about the watch, be honest, and you won't need to unnecessarily hype a watch to sell it or artifically inflate the value.

Yeah, these watches are old, have been worked over, worked on and worked under. That is why something being hyped as 100% original is rare and draws a premium, everyone knows that it has a premium value over an identical watch that was restored or has replacement parts. And, because everyone knows this, that is why sellers hype them as 100% original, to get the premium price...they are fishing for someone that doesn't know better.

Granted, some buyers do know the difference, but many don't.

Have a great day Greek, and all on TRF.

Springer I agree with you here.Original can only be original once though.Once touched it cant be original it can be like original etc......lol

[Terry Newton]

I hope to say this for the last time but, alas, it won't be so.

None of us admit to reporting anything here. I certainly do not admit to reporting anything. I do not admit to reporting anything because of the over-zealousness on the part of some, who want to defend their right to make money, at the expense of good business ethics. We then get in to arguing about semantics, justifications, worrying about someone's reputation, etc., rather than thinking about the innocent buyer who gets stuck with someone's misrepresented item, because a seller wanted to claim something, that was not true to begin with. Why would I want to be responsible to contact a seller and say; "Excuse me sir/madam, but your watch is not 100% original as you state?" When I did try to do that years ago it was met with varying amounts of success and failure. Most knew what they were doing and tried to attack me for my little three transaction history with E-Bay. Yes folks, three transactions. One, a Tag Heuer Kirium Chronometer, two, a cruise book for a WestPac Cruise that occurred on the USS Ranger in 1976, three, a misrepresented Rolex Explorer that I returned to the seller because it was misrepresented. So, like I have stated many times, I have no conflict of interest in the; "Watch Out" Section. I do not do this volunteer effort to eliminate any sales competition.

E-Bay is a open forum where buyer's and seller's can get together to complete mutually beneficial transactions. It is a volunteer community, that is self-policed, where anyone can file reports against suspect sales. Ultimately, E-Bay is responsible for making the final determination, if an item is removed for any reason whatsoever. To blame people on this forum, because an item was openly discussed in this forum, is ludicrous and dumb, when we are mostly here for educational purposes only. I certainly do not get a dime to be here on this forum, I am not an employee of E-bay, in fact, I have a full-time job to begin with, and look on the forum when I can fit it in to my schedule.

I say passionately what I said before; people who sell on E-Bay are responsible for truth in advertising. If they do not know what they are selling, then they should research it, get it checked by RSC, check it out with other vintage experts, etc., before putting up a listing that they claim is 100% original, when it is not. This is like the tobacco companies claiming, that they are not responsible for marketing a deadly product, that they knew was harmful, for many years prior to the court system, and the country, accepted this as fact.

E-Bay is the final determiner of whether an item gets removed for misrepresentation, being a scam, fake, too-good-to-be-true auction, etc. I lose no sleep over the fact that E-bay is doing their job along the sidelines. I will not condemn their desire to keep E-Bay a safe community where people can come together and complete mutually beneficial transactions. Hurray for E-Bay.

All those who sell on E-Bay, please post truthful descriptions of what you are selling. One could only hope for transparency in the sales listed on E-bay. If someone here wants to be the one who takes it upon themselves to politely send an e-mail to someone and tell them their underwear is showing, please do. I only ask for truth in advertising. If a watch has been serviced, with many a replacement part, say so instead of trying to pass it off as 100% original. Simple solution.

Terry Newton

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by onkyo

This statement applies to MANY things in life.....

Just because it fits, doesn't necessarily mean you should stick it in there.

Err buddy Pav...that's one of the BEST words of wisdom...
Orchi has ever heard before...!

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by springer

Since you quoted me Greek, I'll respond. There are probably rules to listing items on ebay but I'm doubtful there are specific rules for vintage watches. The rules for listings that probably matter the most are; common sense, decency and, of course, honesty. A little hype to make the sale, or increase the value of a watch goes too far sometimes, but, exercise just a little common sense, which seems to be lacking in several listings, not only on ebay. but everywhere else these days.

If I have a 1972 GMT and the dial was replaced, no matter who replaced it, and it is a different style dial, it is not original. A replacement dial that is identical to the original would be original. Why wouldn't it, it is the exact same dial the watch came with or would have come with.

If I'm selling a 1972, 1675 GMT, that has a replacement gold surround dial, how can it be 100% original - this dial wasn't made for another 10 years. If it has a 1990 vintage genuine Rolex oyster band, it is not original - totally different band.

Original is original. If I take my 1968 Mustang to a Ford dealer and they replace my 302 CI motor with a 4.6 liter V-8, it is not original. Apply this same logic to a watch.

So how would I list this 1972 GMT: Original 1972 Rolex GMT, serviced twice by the RSC, dial was replaced in 1990 (or original Rolex replacement dial), original Rolex Oyster replacement band. (nowhere does it state 100% original. 100% original is used to DRAW ATTENTION, TO GET BUYERS TO LOOK AT THE AUCTION. I WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DECEPTIVE TO WRITE THAT AS A HEADER.)

I see these type of descriptions- with replacement parts listed as replacement parts - all the time on ebay. Many listing do not contain the proper descriptors, or listed replacement or conversion parts, and they end up here in the Watchout section of TRF.

List what you know about the watch, be honest, and you won't need to unnecessarily hype a watch to sell it or artifically inflate the value.

Yeah, these watches are old, have been worked over, worked on and worked under. That is why something being hyped as 100% original is rare and draws a premium, everyone knows that it has a premium value over an identical watch that was restored or has replacement parts. And, because everyone knows this, that is why sellers hype them as 100% original, to get the premium price...they are fishing for someone that doesn't know better.

Granted, some buyers do know the difference, but many don't.

Have a great day Greek, and all on TRF.

Err buddy Springer...very well said indeed...!

Orchi could not have said it better...!

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by Terry Newton

I hope to say this for the last time but, alas, it won't be so.

None of us admit to reporting anything here. I certainly do not admit to reporting anything. I do not admit to reporting anything because of the over-zealousness on the part of some, who want to defend their right to make money, at the expense of good business ethics. We then get in to arguing about semantics, justifications, worrying about someone's reputation, etc., rather than thinking about the innocent buyer who gets stuck with someone's misrepresented item, because a seller wanted to claim something, that was not true to begin with. Why would I want to be responsible to contact a seller and say; "Excuse me sir/madam, but your watch is not 100% original as you state?" When I did try to do that years ago it was met with varying amounts of success and failure. Most knew what they were doing and tried to attack me for my little three transaction history with E-Bay. Yes folks, three transactions. One, a Tag Heuer Kirium Chronometer, two, a cruise book for a WestPac Cruise that occurred on the USS Ranger in 1976, three, a misrepresented Rolex Explorer that I returned to the seller because it was misrepresented. So, like I have stated many times, I have no conflict of interest in the; "Watch Out" Section. I do not do this volunteer effort to eliminate any sales competition.

E-Bay is a open forum where buyer's and seller's can get together to complete mutually beneficial transactions. It is a volunteer community, that is self-policed, where anyone can file reports against suspect sales. Ultimately, E-Bay is responsible for making the final determination, if an item is removed for any reason whatsoever. To blame people on this forum, because an item was openly discussed in this forum, is ludicrous and dumb, when we are mostly here for educational purposes only. I certainly do not get a dime to be here on this forum, I am not an employee of E-bay, in fact, I have a full-time job to begin with, and look on the forum when I can fit it in to my schedule.

I say passionately what I said before; people who sell on E-Bay are responsible for truth in advertising. If they do not know what they are selling, then they should research it, get it checked by RSC, check it out with other vintage experts, etc., before putting up a listing that they claim is 100% original, when it is not. This is like the tobacco companies claiming, that they are not responsible for marketing a deadly product, that they knew was harmful, for many years prior to the court system, and the country, accepted this as fact.

E-Bay is the final determiner of whether an item gets removed for misrepresentation, being a scam, fake, too-good-to-be-true auction, etc. I lose no sleep over the fact that E-bay is doing their job along the sidelines. I will not condemn their desire to keep E-Bay a safe community where people can come together and complete mutually beneficial transactions. Hurray for E-Bay.

All those who sell on E-Bay, please post truthful descriptions of what you are selling. One could only hope for transparency in the sales listed on E-bay. If someone here wants to be the one who takes it upon themselves to politely send an e-mail to someone and tell them their underwear is showing, please do. I only ask for truth in advertising. If a watch has been serviced, with many a replacement part, say so instead of trying to pass it off as 100% original. Simple solution.

Terry Newton

Err buddy Terry...Orchi concurs fully 100%...with you!

Many of the 1st Class Sellers worldwide...
whether online or offline that Orchi is acquainted with...
are themselves 1st Class Sellers in eBay...as well.

At the end of the day...it is QUALITY of their BEST products/services...
n NOT necessarily in QUANTITY...that separates between...
the BEST Sellers...n the mediocre ones...

[Andad]

Orchi, Springer, Terry et al.

IMO, I can only surmise that anyone who is serious about describing a product as 'original' and can't grasp Springers analogies must have another agenda that might not include ethical and honest dealings.

Well done to all.

You put a lot of time into evaluating these watches but I feel there are some who would prefer to waste your valuable free time.

As John has stated so well. 'Original' means exactly that, 'Original', as it originally came from the supplier, manufacturer etc. Any changes to an 'Original' product must be described as 'Modified'.
I personally wouldn't have a problem with with any product that had been 'restored or refurbished with original parts' providing the parts were listed and the product was presented 'exactly as it was originally manufactured'.
A Rolex that is made from '1% or 100% mismatched Rolex parts' can never ever be described as 'Original' in the context of this discussion.
If a mistake is made unknowingly then IMO the seller must assume full responsibility.

Thanks again to everybody.