Panerai In-House Movements - A PAM of Worms

[enjoythemusic]

epc2 you bring up a great point that Panerai's employee training and information may also be lacking. I have had GREAT customer service from Bob at the Panerai Boutique in Naples FL. Have never physically met Bob and he continues to be wonderful to work with.

Was in Las Vegas at WoS at Wynn and the Panerai reps were very helpful.

Panerai service in Texas repaired a Panerai in very impressive time.

So my personal interaction has been excellent from their 'front line' employees, yet Richemont and their Panerari brand at the top level seems to be very much lacking. Just as it is not Rolex's AD employee's fault there is no inventory, it is not Panerai's Boutique employees or service staff's fault that the company is not providing their employees with proper training details.

The proverbial 'ball' is in Richemont's court. Let's see if they care about the Panerai brand name.

[eonflux]

The P.9010 saga leaves a bitter taste.

When I searched for a 682, I think it was after Panerai switched to the solid back, but I only wanted the display back version to see the P.9010, and fortunately was able to locate one at an AD across the country.

Thought it was odd that Panerai so quickly switched to a solid back for the 682, then again quickly replaced the 682 with the 973 with the P.900 movement.
Using "P" for the 973 movement is not surprisingly confusing, and probably deliberately so by Panerai, which is off-putting.

At current Sub prices, for such a simple movement, would want a fully inhouse movement, and with a display back.

Previously had a 275, and loved the feature set (chrono, GMT, zero reset, 8 day reserve, PR indicator), and the P.2004 movement is still unique in the watch world?
Hence got a 317.

I don't have an issue with the P.2004 being developed/manufactured by ValFleurier, especially if exclusively used by and developed in conjunction with Panerai.

AP forged carbon was mentioned earlier.
The FC held up fine on my previous 44mm ROO.
But I eventually grew to dislike the modular movement, and the case was really a bit too large for me.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by ganiccus

… even Rolex outsource their hands and their stainless steel case and bracelets outside the company despite claiming that they have their own foundry.

I didn’t Rolex doesn’t manufacture their own cases and bracelets in house.

Am I misunderstanding what you said here?

[dhknola]

My favorite aspect of the article is that they most likely jettisoned a gold case back due to the cost of the gold and by doing so, made it so much easier to discover their movement is an ETA.
Such a trash brand. I feel bad for Panerai owners at the moment bc the resale value is in the toilet.

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by dhknola

My favorite aspect of the article is that they most likely jettisoned a gold case back due to the cost of the gold and by doing so, made it so much easier to discover their movement is an ETA.
Such a trash brand. I feel bad for Panerai owners at the moment bc the resale value is in the toilet.

Here we go accepting the author’s hit pieces against Panerai as the gospel truth. Perhaps real world ownership of the actual watches might be more empirical. Both my Panerai models Pam 661 Carbotech and Pam 104 trade in value is exactly what I paid for them as of the last time I called around about a month ago. They have held their value very well but I don’t buy luxury watches as a investment but the current trade-in values still are what they are and I could walk away from both models from what I initially paid.
My Panerai are user watches meaning I dive with them and give them a daily dose of a unpampered life. My Pam 661 Carbotech looks absolutely mint even after hitting it on a bridge pier underwater on a dive. I guarantee my DSSD JC would have had a shattered bezel and dented case with that same hit. Here lies the rub as no other luxury watch by anybody would have taken this kind of abuse and be without any damage. Even it’s time keeping didn’t change as I put it on the scope that night.


I am a movement snob of the highest technical order and like to keep things more analytical so let’s look at a genuine Panerai in-house movement from a actual owner as opposed to non-owner speculation. My Pam 661 all in-house Gen 1 P9010 movement has been rock solid with a 80 hour power reserve and a amplitude at 60 hours stronger than any Rolex movement after 24 hours. Durability and fit and finish has been flawless without any unusual dial printing issues, lume issues, prints on the hands, hand alignment, or dust on the dials from manufacturing even when using proprietary/unconventional materials. Both in-house P.9010 and OPIII modified movements are a +1 to +2 second a day. My Pam 104 with its OPIII non-in house movement has been rock solid the last 8 years and has held the new standard of accuracy of +2/-2 the entire time. This has more to do with someone at Panerai knowing how to regulate a movement more than anything.
As a actual owner and user of a Gen 1 P9010 movement, I am not sure what could be improved with when comparing it to its competitors. It has all the latest automatic improvements in the industry like dual barrel mainspring, ceramic rotor bearings, etc…. Both 44mm watches sit flat on the wrist and are rather thin for their size. The Carbotech is feather light weight yet stronger than titanium.
I own most all the brands and if we use Rolex as the gold standard of engineering, the P9010 betters it in many ways. I understand it’s fun to pile on Panerai the Company from a mob mentality without any actual real world experience of their watches but this is the difference between internet fodder by a person that was bounced from TRF from spreading his propaganda verses a experienced owner of many brands giving a educated real world report over a period of years. Don’t confuse Panerai’s top models to the company. Panerai makes some outstanding and unique automatic watches and is far from a “trash brand”. Panerai has always been avant-garde and that is their charm. With that comes some winners and some losers like the idea of 3 tiers of watches within the brand from Due on up unlike Rolex with one standard across the line. Omega uses the multi tier method but owning eta makes their different level of movements far more acceptable.

[enjoythemusic]

Mystro, what do you feel about the high prices on new models that have lower quality / finished movement? In other words, we know the movement's overall quality / decoration is decreasing while prices are increasing, would you agree?

Do you agree Panerai has not honestly and transparently disclosed, especially when directly asked, about the 9010 'Evolution' movement months ago, and only a short time later Paneri is doing the same with the ETA now?

I look forward to your answers.

[djnick]

so many pam haters yet will spend 100k on a steel nautilus because they internet tells them its cool

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Mystro, what do you feel about the high prices on new models that have lower quality / finished movement? In other words, we know the movement's overall quality / decoration is decreasing while prices are increasing, would you agree?

Do you agree Panerai has not honestly and transparently disclosed, especially when directly asked, about the 9010 'Evolution' movement months ago, and only a short time later Paneri is doing the same with the ETA now?

I look forward to your answers.

I know Panerai like many companies are incredibly secretive. Rolex only discloses what they want you to know so it’s not uncommon in the Swiss watch making industry. This is no reason to start reaching for conspiracy theories as the industry has always been this way. I feel Panerai is moving in another direct and putting less emphasis on movement finishing and is pushing their durability/ reliability angle with this new extended warranty. Movement ornamentation has nothing to do with movement quality or actual performance of the movement. I think this extended warranty cost is being made up with less movement finishing, believing their customer base looks at Panerai as a durability brand and not a movement finishing brand like AP. Their outer case and dial finishing is still spectacular and so are their straps. This is the the tactile part of the watch the majority of the customer base really sees. My gut says that is why they took the hacking out of the P9010 because some engineer was tasked to come up with some solution to further the movements longevity between routine services. I don’t believe the actual movement has been compromised in as far as performance in power reserve and accuracy. It’s cost cutting to cover the extended warranty program. Kind of like the way modern luxury cars don’t have a dip stick any more even though most of us want to have this analog way of cowitnessing the oil. Some bean counter has a study that shows luxury car owners don’t like to pop the hood between routine services.

Panerai has always been a bit fuzzy with their movements in as far as what movement is made by them or has been “modified” enough to put their own designation on it much like my OPIII in my Pam 104. The industry as seen a all new customer in that they are far less concerned with the “perfections in the details”. This is true with the new wave of Rolex customers that know nothing about movements and don’t really care. We as WIS are hypercritical of our niche hobby but the reality is the mass buyers that buy luxury watches even at the very top level don’t enjoy knowing or investigating how our automatic movements even work. Panerai is just moving their focus to accommodate this new long term durability for their new warranty.

One thing Panera has not compromised on is their customer service in the way their staff on the phone interacts with their customers. I’ve called them on several occasions and they have been nothing but top rate. Quite honestly, the best customer service I’ve ever experienced from any watch brand. Once again, this is a priority to a luxury watch buyer that might not know much about watches. From my past experience, Rolex is just OK and Omega is absolutely dreadful with how their concierge interact with the customer over the phone. Panerai is a top luxury brand giving a pretty competent luxury experience from buying the watch to buying accessories to asking for catalogs. I get more concerned if I see customer service and factory service centers start to be compromised.
Panerai has it’s own style and attitude and I have never looked at Panerai as anything more than a tough, solid, highly legible luxury watch with outstanding lume. It’s simplicity in design and function is what it’s always been about. It’s never been about movement finishing from what I buy a Panerai for. In that perspective Panerai has not changed. I have always felt a Panerai being the ultimate strap watch was the perfect compliment to the Rolex being the ultimate bracelet watch in terms of not competing with similar styles or designs. As a long time WIS in this game, you have to cherry pick the right Panerai model as opposed to Rolex where all their watches are equal in movements and build.
Panerai price points are what the market will yield as the entire luxury watch industry is up. I try to buy Panerai on the like new in box secondary market and let the first guy take that hit like they do/did with every other luxury watch brand except Rolex. It’s no secret now that the new novice watch buyers are heavily influenced by social media. Brands that are being pushed and brands that are not. Panerai has its Paneristis and they are still a strong tight community but they don’t push Panerai on social medial like other brands. Looking outside our WIS bubble and Panerai is still a very high profile brand in pop/celebrity culture and one look around at pro athletes and top celebrities and it’s easy to see the brand still has its “high profile”image intact for those looking for the larger unique Panerai style.

[enjoythemusic]

So they're a FASHION BRAND, that makes sense. So why all this talk by them about in-house movement?

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

So they're a FASHION BRAND, that makes sense. So why all this talk by them about in-house movement?

Well, every luxury watch is a fashion brand to a extent. Panerai has their recognizable design like AP does. You can spot what it is across the room and in that sense you can never take design and fashion out of the luxury watch equation. Look at how many holy trinity brands once used other manufacturers movements as a base. Even Rolex used Zenith to produce the Daytona.

Yea, I own a B&R ceramic military with a eta movement (yup a genuine eta) as my beater but my Panerai Carbotech is in another zip code of watch in every aspect and performance. The all in-house P.9000 and then refined P.9010 movement is indeed a superior in-house design from their modified movements. This is when all the players HAD to develop their own in house movements as ETA base movements were only exclusive to the Swatch brand across the entire industry. ETA makes a hell of a movement in many grades as that’s their specialty. Automatic movement evolution only has meaning when put in the proper context of history on how it falls in the time line of industry events. There were also a lot of automatic movement advancements at the same time like double barrel main springs, ceramic rotor bearings, better antimagnetic, etc…. It was the golden age of the large manufactures developing their own in-house movements out of necessity and manufacturing advancements. Look at all the variations Omega had to do with the CoAxial movement and they are a giant. Panerai did very well with their P9000.

Panerai design has reached a “iconic” level that gives them that “stand out from the herd” look that doesn’t come around very often. That look is what put them on the map from its military beginnings.
My biggest bitch with Panerai is they used that iconic look in Due non-dive watches. This is where Panerai started to pimp their own high end design to establish the lower tier and lower dive performance watches. Kinda what Porsche did with the 912. You get the 911 look with a VW engine at 1/2 the price.

In the end, luxury watches are about having a connection to the design or brand. There is no practical reason to pay what we do for these watches other than our own enjoyment and a connection to the time piece.

[WatchEater666]

I don't have an issue with outsourced movements, but I don't get why they are being misleading about it.

[enjoythemusic]

Mystro, i appreciate your thoughts and in many ways you are right. Am sure their new direction will deliver the type of customers they desire.

I love the well-proven ETA movements, Panerai should proudly state this as The Swatch Group has earned the appropriate accolades. I have a great idea, Richemont should aquire the Swatch Group to make the in-house movement official tho. Imagine the possibilities!

[Bearxj86]

Thankfully most older PAMs are still trading at very reasonable prices. Do yourself a favor and get a 112 or 111 base for $4000. Thats all you really need.

Or- my personal favorite - the PAM192. Who needs gold when you can get Tantalum?

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

I don't have an issue with outsourced movements, but I don't get why they are being misleading about it.

I think this is the real issue, by no means do I think Panerai is a trash brand. I recently bought a 1305 and I'm absolutely smitten by it. It runs fast but consistently so and I prefer a fast watch versus a slow watch, which has been a huge pita with my recent Rolex purchases and their true in-house 3235.

I think Mystro addressed Panerai quality which isn't really what the issue is centered on. The article in question really focuses on movements, specifically their identity and the misrepresentation of these movements and their origins.
Panerai is releasing new watches and hailing them as revolutionary with in-house movements and at very premium price points.
I think it's big news that there is a base ETA movement in a watch at this price point and how it's marketed. I don't expect Panerai to say, here's a new watch with a base ETA and we're charging you $40k for it, but they can structure their wording, description and marketing a bit more transparent and let buyers decide. I suppose we're asking for too much thinking a lux brand will be honest.

I don't disagree with your points Mystro, but I don't think you addressed the blatant misrepresentation Panerai is doing.

Originally Posted by brandrea

I didn’t Rolex doesn’t manufacture their own cases and bracelets in house.

Am I misunderstanding what you said here?

I'm not sure what he's on about either. Rolex outsources a few things but it's things like some dials, hands and hour markers, gaskets, spring bars, crystals, some movement screws and crowns. The big ticket items, for example the movements, cases, bracelets or clasps are in-house.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

I think this is the real issue, by no means do I think Panerai is a trash brand. I recently bought a 1305 and I'm absolutely smitten by it. It runs fast but consistently so and I prefer a fast watch versus a slow watch, which has been a huge pita with my recent Rolex purchases and their true in-house 3235.

I think Mystro addressed Panerai quality which isn't really what the issue is centered on. The article in question really focuses on movements, specifically their identity and the misrepresentation of these movements and their origins.
Panerai is releasing new watches and hailing them as revolutionary with in-house movements and at very premium price points.
I think it's big news that there is a base ETA movement in a watch at this price point and how it's marketed. I don't expect Panerai to say, here's a new watch with a base ETA and we're charging you $40k for it, but they can structure their wording, description and marketing a bit more transparent and let buyers decide. I suppose we're asking for too much thinking a lux brand will be honest.

I don't disagree with your points Mystro, but I don't think you addressed the blatant misrepresentation Panerai is doing.




I'm not sure what he's on about either. Rolex outsources a few things but it's things like some dials, hands and hour markers, gaskets, spring bars, crystals, some movement screws and crowns. The big ticket items, for example the movements, cases, bracelets or clasps are in-house.

[brandrea]

The lack of pictures in this thread are disturbing to picture books readers like me

20180904_095149.jpg

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[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by brandrea

The lack of pictures in this thread are disturbing to picture books readers like me

Attachment 1237610

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

You just have a way of making any watch look amazing, maybe it’s that car studio set up you have lols.
I love Panerai almost as much as Rolex, I don’t honestly care about ETA movements, I’m more irked by their lack of transparency.
I’m looking at a Doxa recently and don’t mind their ETA movements but they are open and you know what you’re getting right out the gate. Same with various Tudor models. I think it’s important for customers and enthusiasts to sell them the product correctly.

It’s just puzzling that media sources and watch journalists don’t report accurate info or regurgitate marketing mumbo jumbo, you would think the horology fans would tell you about the watch’s horology right, nope, they are paid influencer puppets. Honestly, Panerai a company owned as part of a conglomerate, I expect to an extent to over embellish the truth, but I would think and expect Hodinkee to tell me the intricate truth, eff no and ablogtowatch is a giant joke, I’ve heard so much outright wrong information from those clowns it’s hard to realistic think they even care about horology.

I’m in love with my Pam 1305 and hopefully God willing I can add 779. Panerai is a very polarizing brand but I love it and it’s connection to Rolex rubs me the right way.

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

Thankfully most older PAMs are still trading at very reasonable prices. Do yourself a favor and get a 112 or 111 base for $4000. Thats all you really need.

Or- my personal favorite - the PAM192. Who needs gold when you can get Tantalum?

Here here! Love your 192 too.

[alllexandru]

It is not a problem that you source other movements made inner group, that's fine as long as you don't hide or misleading the customer
Medium end long term they will loose image and value.

They do have nice watches but with all these credibility issues it it not good for the collectors who will stir away from the brand in time if nothing changes

I like the Radiomir line from them :)

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

You just have a way of making any watch look amazing, maybe it’s that car studio set up you have lols.

I love Panerai almost as much as Rolex, I don’t honestly care about ETA movements, I’m more irked by their lack of transparency.

I’m looking at a Doxa recently and don’t mind their ETA movements but they are open and you know what you’re getting right out the gate. Same with various Tudor models. I think it’s important for customers and enthusiasts to sell them the product correctly.



It’s just puzzling that media sources and watch journalists don’t report accurate info or regurgitate marketing mumbo jumbo, you would think the horology fans would tell you about the watch’s horology right, nope, they are paid influencer puppets. Honestly, Panerai a company owned as part of a conglomerate, I expect to an extent to over embellish the truth, but I would think and expect Hodinkee to tell me the intricate truth, eff no and ablogtowatch is a giant joke, I’ve heard so much outright wrong information from those clowns it’s hard to realistic think they even care about horology.



I’m in love with my Pam 1305 and hopefully God willing I can add 779. Panerai is a very polarizing brand but I love it and it’s connection to Rolex rubs me the right way.

Chad is the one who turned me on to car studio shots ... apparently has something to do with lighting. That said, this PAM looks awesome anywhere any time.

I love the brand as you do. I agree its disappointing to hear things like this come to surface in a less than transparent way.

To me its a bit like a jilted lover ... it hurts but I still love you Panerai.



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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

It’s just puzzling that media sources and watch journalists don’t report accurate info or regurgitate marketing mumbo jumbo, you would think the horology fans would tell you about the watch’s horology right, nope, they are paid influencer puppets. Honestly, Panerai a company owned as part of a conglomerate, I expect to an extent to over embellish the truth....

My longtime friend is a member of the press within the timepiece industry (Financial Times, various magazines, etc) and he tried helping me to find out about the 9010 'Evolution' movement and Panerai refused to give him information. So it really is Richemonth's Panerai division that is refusing to provide details. Perhaps more journalists should report on that problem.

... but I would think and expect Hodinkee to tell me the intricate truth, eff no and ablogtowatch is a giant joke, I’ve heard so much outright wrong information from those clowns it’s hard to realistic think they even care about horology.

And that's... you know.

Originally Posted by alllexandru

It is not a problem that you source other movements made inner group, that's fine as long as you don't hide or misleading the customer Medium end long term they will loose image and value. They do have nice watches but with all these credibility issues it it not good for the collectors who will stir away from the brand in time if nothing changes.

It seems credibility and Panerai have a history of deception. If we remove emotion, there are legal problems too.

------------

Perhaps the best course of action is to contact all members of the press you know / can email / call. We need to see reports within the Financial Times, New York Times, CNBC, Bloomberg, etc about Richemont's problems with their Panerai brand and their purposeful misleading (or outright refusal of details) concerning their products. Am sure the financial audience wants to know how their stock might perform under such circumstances as legal problems, perhaps even a Class Action Lawsuit, might be on the company's horizon.

[epicurus]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

Thankfully most older PAMs are still trading at very reasonable prices. Do yourself a favor and get a 112 or 111 base for $4000. Thats all you really need.

Or- my personal favorite - the PAM192. Who needs gold when you can get Tantalum?

Beautiful. And the movement....Lemania!

I miss mine!

[THWatch]

Originally Posted by brandrea

The lack of pictures in this thread are disturbing to picture books readers like me

Attachment 1237610

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Agreed!

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by THWatch

Agreed!

Bravo

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[Mystro]

My Pam 104 has been bullet proof. I have so much history with it and have put it through everything from 50 BMG and HK416 automatic fire to chainsaw work. I even love the smooth rotor wobble. It’s push button lugs to easily change straps have me working with a different strap all the time. I tend to use my Pam 661 now more for the rough stuff because it won’t show any scratches but I do love the bright polish luster of the Pam 104.

[enjoythemusic]

Great pics and agree, Panera can produce high-quality timepieces. Have two myself and waiting on a third. Just don't want to see Richemont allow their Panerai brand to devalue through apparently lower quality products yet at higher pricing due to corporate mismanagement.

[yachty 1]

Non hacking but I truly don't care.

[tedo]

Hacking

[waterman1]

Everyone here has great points about Panerai and the direction of the brand etc. It is a side note to the fact that every day the watch I want to wear is my 979. I love this thing. It has kept the best time of any watch I have ever had and is rock solid sturdy with its carbotech. I don’t really worry about investment criteria or how the public perceives it from a value standpoint.

[CanPam]

Very limited point of view bro.
Only some watchnerds are interested in this movement issue, 99% of possible new Panerai owners will give a sh## for what movement is ticking in their watch....

Originally Posted by dhknola

My favorite aspect of the article is that they most likely jettisoned a gold case back due to the cost of the gold and by doing so, made it so much easier to discover their movement is an ETA.
Such a trash brand. I feel bad for Panerai owners at the moment bc the resale value is in the toilet.