The Rolex Forums   The Rolex Watch

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX


Go Back   Rolex Forums - Rolex Watch Forum > Classifieds > WatchOut!!! > eBay & Internet Sales WatchOut

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12 January 2020, 10:26 AM   #1
Prospector
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Real Name: Robert
Location: Virginia
Posts: 15
Icon17 Vintage WWII Rolex Trench Watch Model?

Dear Forum Members,

I hope that I may be forgiven for starting a new thread about this Rolex watch; but, as you can see, this is my first post. So kindly grant me some accommodation in pursuing information about my first, and oldest, triple-signed Rolex.

The information which I am seeking is of a rather more technical nature, than historical. The watch depicted to begin this thread was removed, or liberated, from a schutzstaffel officer following the Normandy invasion by a family member; and its history, provenance, and and authenticity are known to me by these factors and other research that I have done.



What I am trying to establish, from a technical standpoint are the following:

1. When the watch was built?
2. Was this specimen a standard issue model for any particular branch of the German NSDAP?
3. What is the movement of the timepiece?
4. Were shrapnel guards a component of the watch from its time of production, or a later addition?
5. Having studied the Panerai kampfschwimmer and Radiomir watches and the Radium luminescence craze following Marie Curie's discovery, could this be a WWI porcelain-dialed piece that transitioned into WWII like a father to son hand-me-down?
6. Why do the components of the timepiece--Dial, movement, case, soldered wire "lugs" and strap scream WWI to me?

I welcome other pertinent thoughts as well as comments that are beneficial to my research endeavors.

With best introductory regards,

Prospector
Prospector is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 12:51 AM   #2
ROGERB
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Real Name: Roger
Location: WHITE ROCK BC
Watch: 89 16610, 57 7914,
Posts: 887
There are no pics to review?
R
ROGERB is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 02:55 AM   #3
Claven2
"TRF" Member
 
Claven2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: OTTAWA
Posts: 334
Your pics aren't showing up. Without seeing them though, if your ancestor did liberate the watch in ww2, that does not mean the watch is from that era. Just like now, lots of people wear watches that were handed down to them. Maybe it's a ww1 era trench watch. People would need to see pics.

As an example, a few times a week I wear a 1966 datejust. I was born in 1976. If you stole my watch tomorrow. And don't know how to date a rolex datejust, you could be forgiven for thinking it was produced within the last 10 years.
Claven2 is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 03:41 AM   #4
HK852GMT
"TRF" Member
 
HK852GMT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Watch: 16710
Posts: 97
My word OP, your turn of phrase is rather wonderful. I can’t wait to see this watch. Photos photos photos!
HK852GMT is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 04:12 AM   #5
Prospector
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Real Name: Robert
Location: Virginia
Posts: 15
First Photo

With the help of a friend across the country, I've learned of a photo bucket which, I hope, will allow me to post some images:

Rolex Trench watch with guard and original strap_zpsryaq27il.JPG
Prospector is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 04:31 AM   #6
Prospector
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Real Name: Robert
Location: Virginia
Posts: 15
Finally...some photographs....

I hope that the photographs below will be more constructive in achieving my objectives outlined at the beginning of this thread.... Thanks for your comments and assistance. Best regards,
Prospector
Prospector is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 04:44 AM   #7
Prospector
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Real Name: Robert
Location: Virginia
Posts: 15
One last thing

This last pair of images depicts the "original" strap and buckle that the schutzstaffel bloke was wearing at the time of his "untimely" demise.... I just couldn't resist the pun.
Best regards,
Prospector
Prospector is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 05:26 AM   #8
Claven2
"TRF" Member
 
Claven2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: OTTAWA
Posts: 334
older watch for sure - not WW2 era manufacture. The rolex markings in the winding wheel look off to me and the hands are relumed. The sand-blasted rolex logo in the case is also off to my eye. I very much doubt rolex cased a watch like this.

I'm not expert, but I would not have bought it if advertised on e-bay.
Claven2 is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 06:08 AM   #9
Trench Watch Guy
"TRF" Member
 
Trench Watch Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Earth
Watch: Several
Posts: 62
It looks a lot like an Omega I have.

Trench Watch Guy is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 06:55 AM   #10
offrdmania
2020 Rolex+Tudor GMT Pledge Member
 
offrdmania's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Real Name: Matt
Location: Wine Country, Ca
Posts: 3,857
There are a lot of parts that look newly manufactured or altered to me. I dont think its an authentic Rolex at all. I think its an assembled watch to give the appearance of a Rolex trench watch.
The winder wheel marking looks to either be printed on or laser etched. An original marking would be deeply engraved in the wheel. Its a Rebberg movement maybe?? but I dont think its one that was used by Rolex. Ive never seen a Rolex Rebberg movement in brass.
The Rolex crown on the inside of the case back looks like it was recently added, is in the wrong direction and looks intentionally aged.
The dial and hands look to be brand new. The strap is old but it could have come from anywhere.
Im not sure who told you the story about the watch but I think its far fetched as the watch is surely not original.
__________________
TRF Member 11738

♕ 126334 ♕ 126600
offrdmania is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 07:07 AM   #11
Prospector
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Real Name: Robert
Location: Virginia
Posts: 15
Thanks for that nice Omega photo, Trench Watch Guy--yours is a very nice example with similarities indicative to me that a standard must have been established for a military application to ensure performance characteristics consistent with trench warfare and the requisite precision of an officer's "Charge!" whistle during the Great War.
Prospector is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 07:10 AM   #12
springer
2019 SKY-DWELLER Giveaway Sponsor
 
springer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 14,793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospector View Post
Dear Forum Members,

I hope that I may be forgiven for starting a new thread about this Rolex watch; but, as you can see, this is my first post. So kindly grant me some accommodation in pursuing information about my first, and oldest, triple-signed Rolex.

The information which I am seeking is of a rather more technical nature, than historical. The watch depicted to begin this thread was removed, or liberated, from a schutzstaffel officer following the Normandy invasion by a family member; and its history, provenance, and and authenticity are known to me by these factors and other research that I have done.



What I am trying to establish, from a technical standpoint are the following:

1. When the watch was built?
2. Was this specimen a standard issue model for any particular branch of the German NSDAP?
3. What is the movement of the timepiece?
4. Were shrapnel guards a component of the watch from its time of production, or a later addition?
5. Having studied the Panerai kampfschwimmer and Radiomir watches and the Radium luminescence craze following Marie Curie's discovery, could this be a WWI porcelain-dialed piece that transitioned into WWII like a father to son hand-me-down?
6. Why do the components of the timepiece--Dial, movement, case, soldered wire "lugs" and strap scream WWI to me?

I welcome other pertinent thoughts as well as comments that are beneficial to my research endeavors.

With best introductory regards,

Prospector
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Based on your research you wrote? What research? What looks genuine on it, based on your research? I'd send it back based on your photos. It's some type of fake Rolex or poor reproduction.
__________________
"If the game is rigged, you can't lose if you don't play."

Member of NAWCC since 1990.
springer is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 07:44 AM   #13
Dan S
2020 Pledge Member
 
Dan S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,221
Perhaps the OP can post a photo that shows the entire movement. If the case is silver, it should have hallmarks, so photos of those would also be helpful.
__________________
@oldwatchdan on IG
Dan S is online now  
Old 13 January 2020, 08:33 AM   #14
Prospector
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Real Name: Robert
Location: Virginia
Posts: 15
Off-Road--
Thanks for your input regarding the so-called Rebburg movement (which was actually manufactured by Aegler). Rolex did use these in a 15-jewel officer's version of the trench watch and there was also a 7-jewel movement that was a step-down in price and presumably purchased by manufacturers for various military contracts leading up to and during WWI. I've had some time to study the trench watches made by Rolex, Omega, Zodiac, etc., and have been able to answer a number of the above questions which I posed in my opening post--which I aimed to focus specifically on the technical elements, rather than authenticity of the watch.
Your thoughts relative to the authenticity of this timepiece, while appreciated, are curious.... This watch has spent its life since 1945 in a drawer, or in a safe, and it is not for sale. I just can't fathom why a Nazi soldier would want to alter the piece to make it "look" like a Rolex some 70+ years ago, when showing off a Rolex hadn't become fashionable. If you take another look at the original strap, please observe closely the darkened areas inside and along the edge of the leather--that's dried, old, Nazi blood....
Prospector is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 08:42 AM   #15
Cloudchaser
2020 Pledge Member
 
Cloudchaser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: L.A.
Watch: Watching
Posts: 859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospector View Post
If you take another look at the original strap, please observe closely the darkened areas inside and along the edge of the leather--that's dried, old, Nazi blood....
Troll Factor Eleven.
Cloudchaser is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 09:09 AM   #16
Prospector
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Real Name: Robert
Location: Virginia
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer View Post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Based on your research you wrote? What research? What looks genuine on it, based on your research? I'd send it back based on your photos. It's some type of fake Rolex or poor reproduction.
Well, I can see that you're missing the point; so let me be clear, AGAIN. I'm not asking if this Rolex watch is real or not; nor am I soliciting opinions with regard to authenticity. Great uncle shuttled troops in a landing craft at Normandy Beach on D-Day, then went all the way to Berlin, and finally brought a number of interesting things back when he returned home. This was one of them and he recounted the history of its acquisition. Any attempt I might make to defend the piece is or would be futile--believe it, or don't--it's really not at all relevant to this thread's intent. I'm happy to hear opinions and pontifications about what's wrong about this or that, but I don't care about opinions and tried to make that perfectly clear in my opening to the conversation.

Do you have anything to say that's pertinent to the questions that I posed? I'd prefer to hear some facts related to those questions, if anyone has something constructive to add. Or keep spinning wheels trying to pick the watch apart. I'm just trying to stay on point with the purpose of starting this discussion, namely, the questions that I asked. Thanks.
Prospector is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 09:20 AM   #17
offrdmania
2020 Rolex+Tudor GMT Pledge Member
 
offrdmania's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Real Name: Matt
Location: Wine Country, Ca
Posts: 3,857
The reason authenticity is coming up is because the watch has many many red flags. The case may have been made in 1918 but some of the other parts may have been made in 1988. This is why your questions cant be answered.

Springer is one of the highest regarded Rolex watch historians on the site, so to flame him wont score you any points with most other members.
__________________
TRF Member 11738

♕ 126334 ♕ 126600
offrdmania is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 09:21 AM   #18
Robtayham
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Texas
Posts: 532
Ibtl
Robtayham is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 09:28 AM   #19
MILGAUSS88
"TRF" Member
 
MILGAUSS88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: mississippi river
Posts: 1,663
Often time stories handed down, have nothing to due with reality.

This is definitely a WWI era watch.

All Rolex marks on the dial, case and movement have definitely been added in the last 40 years. The markings are not original.

Last edited by MILGAUSS88; 13 January 2020 at 09:34 AM.. Reason: ....
MILGAUSS88 is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 09:50 AM   #20
springer
2019 SKY-DWELLER Giveaway Sponsor
 
springer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 14,793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospector View Post

Well, I can see that you're missing the point; so let me be clear, AGAIN. I'm not asking if this Rolex watch is real or not; nor am I soliciting opinions with regard to authenticity. Great uncle shuttled troops in a landing craft at Normandy Beach on D-Day, then went all the way to Berlin, and finally brought a number of interesting things back when he returned home. This was one of them and he recounted the history of its acquisition. Any attempt I might make to defend the piece is or would be futile--believe it, or don't--it's really not at all relevant to this thread's intent. I'm happy to hear opinions and pontifications about what's wrong about this or that, but I don't care about opinions and tried to make that perfectly clear in my opening to the conversation.

Do you have anything to say that's pertinent to the questions that I posed? I'd prefer to hear some facts related to those questions, if anyone has something constructive to add. Or keep spinning wheels trying to pick the watch apart. I'm just trying to stay on point with the purpose of starting this discussion, namely, the questions that I asked. Thanks.
I thought I was being constructive. Sorry if you're offended. So, again, I see nothing indicating the watch is genuine, not a thing. I have nothing technical to add, sorry, since that would be reserved for a genuine watch.

I still haven't seen a response from you indicating how your research into the watch verifies its authenticity. I believe one or two others already posted issues with the watch so there isn't any reason for me to duplicate their responses.
__________________
"If the game is rigged, you can't lose if you don't play."

Member of NAWCC since 1990.
springer is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 10:13 AM   #21
SunTzu
"TRF" Member
 
SunTzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: NJ
Watch: 5513 116234 79280P
Posts: 874
Vintage WWII Rolex Trench Watch Model?

I collect military watches. That is a totally fake Rolex. A novice can tell based on the dial text. Others have opined on the red flags raised concerning case and movement markings. That dial design, case, and shrapnel guard are from WW1 and always faked. Near impossible to authenticate strap as original to the watch. Iím iffy on the crown too. Usually they have an onion skin style crown. Most are on Ebay and come from the Ukraine. Usually they are labeled Omega. Abundant generic Swiss trench watches of that era are jazzed up or cobbled together (Frankened) with dial, case and movement markings of luxury brands and passed off as genuine.




Sent from Crapatalk
__________________
The wristwatch is an intimate accessory. The best watches live in harmony and interact with the wearer, and their functions offer a reassuring and emotionally satisfying bond - Kintaro Hattori
SunTzu is online now  
Old 13 January 2020, 10:21 AM   #22
Prospector
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Real Name: Robert
Location: Virginia
Posts: 15
After reviewing my questions upon starting this thread and conversation, I think that they have all but one been answered, and appreciate most of the input. To summarize my theories:

1. The watch was made leading up to, or during, WWI. Serial number can confirm precise date of manufacture.
2. The specimen was not a standard issue model, but rather conformed to the criteria that various military contracts established consistently to provide, for example, 12 and 24 hour time with seconds on a centered subdial. Trench Watch Guy's kindly-shared Omega design suggests that there was some variation in these contractual requirements, as demonstrated by the skeletonized hands on his example. Some contracts, as perhaps with my specimen, may have had a provision for a radio-luminescent feature in hour and minute hands or other specifications. The WWII and NSDAP elements of the question thus become moot points.
3. The movement is an officer's model 15-jewel known as the Rebberg movement, which is a designation not of the manufacturer, Aegler, but rather of the area in which it operated. This is an important and very significant transitional movement in the fields both of horology and the Rolex marque that is explored in detail and with excellent connection to Rolex and Hans Wilsdorf by David Boettcher at https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/aegler.php
4. This question remains unanswered; any input here would be appreciated. Various designs of shrapnel protective guards can be found in grill forms, spiral forms (Zodiac), field improvised forms, as well as that of this specimen.
5. Reductio ad absurdum.
6. Reductio ad absurdum.

Thanks for help in getting to the bottom of my inquiries in this thread. Any information on the shrapnel guard topic would be very much welcomed.

Best regards,

Prospector
Prospector is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 10:23 AM   #23
Lol-x
Facilitator
 
Lol-x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Real Name: Steve
Location: Omnipresent
Posts: 31,162
Genuine Rolex watches of WW1 period look totally different.

That is a total fake, so no point discussing it on the basis of it being a Rolex.
__________________

Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. ~Abraham Lincoln
Nothing compares to the simple pleasure of a bike ride. ~John F. Kennedy

ROLEXploitation - yeah I'm a victim
Lol-x is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 10:23 AM   #24
Claven2
"TRF" Member
 
Claven2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: OTTAWA
Posts: 334
Being charitable here, maybe your great uncle handed you the wrong watch by mistake? Things get moved around and memories fade after 76 years.
Claven2 is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 10:24 AM   #25
Lol-x
Facilitator
 
Lol-x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Real Name: Steve
Location: Omnipresent
Posts: 31,162
Here is the real deal:

__________________

Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. ~Abraham Lincoln
Nothing compares to the simple pleasure of a bike ride. ~John F. Kennedy

ROLEXploitation - yeah I'm a victim
Lol-x is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 10:28 AM   #26
offrdmania
2020 Rolex+Tudor GMT Pledge Member
 
offrdmania's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Real Name: Matt
Location: Wine Country, Ca
Posts: 3,857
Steve, the OP is still under the assumption that his watch is real after multiple experts have said otherwise. It may be wise to just shut down the thread because he obviously wont listen to anyone.
__________________
TRF Member 11738

♕ 126334 ♕ 126600
offrdmania is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 10:31 AM   #27
SunTzu
"TRF" Member
 
SunTzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: NJ
Watch: 5513 116234 79280P
Posts: 874
Vintage WWII Rolex Trench Watch Model?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospector View Post
After reviewing my questions upon starting this thread and conversation, I think that they have all but one been answered, and appreciate most of the input. To summarize my theories:



1. The watch was made leading up to, or during, WWI. Serial number can confirm precise date of manufacture.

2. The specimen was not a standard issue model, but rather conformed to the criteria that various military contracts established consistently to provide, for example, 12 and 24 hour time with seconds on a centered subdial. Trench Watch Guy's kindly-shared Omega design suggests that there was some variation in these contractual requirements, as demonstrated by the skeletonized hands on his example. Some contracts, as perhaps with my specimen, may have had a provision for a radio-luminescent feature in hour and minute hands or other specifications. The WWII and NSDAP elements of the question thus become moot points.

3. The movement is an officer's model 15-jewel known as the Rebberg movement, which is a designation not of the manufacturer, Aegler, but rather of the area in which it operated. This is an important and very significant transitional movement in the fields both of horology and the Rolex marque that is explored in detail and with excellent connection to Rolex and Hans Wilsdorf by David Boettcher at https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/aegler.php

4. This question remains unanswered; any input here would be appreciated. Various designs of shrapnel protective guards can be found in grill forms, spiral forms (Zodiac), field improvised forms, as well as that of this specimen.

5. Reductio ad absurdum.

6. Reductio ad absurdum.



Thanks for help in getting to the bottom of my inquiries in this thread. Any information on the shrapnel guard topic would be very much welcomed.



Best regards,



Prospector

Youíre still under the assumption itís genuine when nothing about it indicates such. Like cramming a square peg into a round hole and saying it fits.

If it were genuine the numbers and hands would be lumed. The movement would be much more decorated and properly engraved. Iíve never seen the coronet used on a Rolex that early.


Sent from Crapatalk
__________________
The wristwatch is an intimate accessory. The best watches live in harmony and interact with the wearer, and their functions offer a reassuring and emotionally satisfying bond - Kintaro Hattori
SunTzu is online now  
Old 13 January 2020, 10:37 AM   #28
Prospector
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Real Name: Robert
Location: Virginia
Posts: 15
Thanks again for comments and criticisms of the watch. I certainly have no intention of "flaming" anyone for their opinions; nor have I aimed to pick a fight over the watch. I have nothing to prove and don't take offense from anyone's comments. We should all have the right to be wrong. I wish only the my best regards to all who participated in the conversation. Thanks!
Prospector is offline  
Old 13 January 2020, 10:47 AM   #29
SunTzu
"TRF" Member
 
SunTzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: NJ
Watch: 5513 116234 79280P
Posts: 874
Hereís another example of a genuine movement and case. From this forum too.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=548205


Sent from Crapatalk
__________________
The wristwatch is an intimate accessory. The best watches live in harmony and interact with the wearer, and their functions offer a reassuring and emotionally satisfying bond - Kintaro Hattori
SunTzu is online now  
Old 13 January 2020, 11:51 AM   #30
CorradoBrit
"TRF" Member
 
CorradoBrit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 1,260
:)
CorradoBrit is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


*Banners Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.





Copyright ©2004-2019, The Rolex Forums. All Rights Reserved.

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Rolex is a registered trademark of ROLEX USA. The Rolex Forums is not affiliated with ROLEX USA in any way.