Enough is enough...?

[PRD]

The number of posts reporting scams is getting really sad. More worrisome is that the recent victims seem to have often done their due diligence trying to ensure the legitimacy of the sellers, only to get taken advantage of. With the increased number of even reputable sellers’ accounts getting hijacked, I don’t think I would wire anyone money anymore, unless I was meeting at a bank with the seller and watch simultaneously (i have done this) or I knew the seller personally from prior transactions. Unfortunately, not everyone trying to buy on this forum has the good fortune to know the “trusted sellers” everyone keeps referring to. Similarly, the advice to “always use Amex or PayPal” is ineffective since even the trusted sellers on this site typically insist on bank wire. Then there’s the “only buy from your AD” argument, as if ADs have ample inventory to supply buyers with the desirable watches we all want (we of course know they don’t, which is why this forum is so successful).

With all that said, I am surprised more people have not gravitated to escrow accounts like escrow.com, where a third party holds the funds until the buyer verifies receipt of the product. Has anyone used these types of services and if so, what are the downsides? Chrono24 seems to use this type of format for instance, and I found it very effective and reassuring for a watch I purchased on that site.
I am watching several scams on this forum per week, and I feel that we all share some collective responsibility to try to solve this problem so we can all buy watches and enjoy what we are passionate about. I feel there has got to be a better way than what we are currently doing. I respect and appreciate all the sellers out there who have integrity and are professional. But it seems a method of transaction has been perpetuated that completely protects the sellers and leaves all buyers very vulnerable. And we the buyers just seem to accept that. Perhaps that needs to change? Can’t we the buyers start to collectively insist on some method of exchange that affords us a measure of protection similar to that currently enjoyed by the sellers?

Sorry but i just feel really bad for all of the individuals who keep losing tens of thousands of dollars here every time I log on...it seems such a terrible waste.

Phil

[Peemaster]

Online Escrow services are not safe either. At least for the seller. What happens if the buyer claims that his parcel didnt contain the ordered watch or that the watch is counterfeit?

Over here sellers should be generally responsible for hijacked accounts, at least as long its not the forum which got hacked.

[perchek]

So I've been a long time lurker on this forum, and often peruse the "WatchOut!!!" sub-forum to make sure I don't do what others do. I understand what PRD is trying to say, but at the end of the day, it sure seems like the people who get taken for their money made a big mistake one way or another. Whether it's only asking for 2 references, not asking for a time verification, not videocalling the person and seeing the watch, etc. And even then, who's to say that the watch is genuine, after you've already wired $10k+? The escrow idea could work to alleviate those problems, but like Peemaster said, what's stopping the buyer from claiming they didn't receive the package as promised? I had that happen years ago with an ebay sale, and I refused to sell on ebay again. I don't think there's any one size fits all solution, outside of buying from an AD. I'm planning on getting a TT Submariner later this year, and will likely just go through an AD because I don't want to risk it. Sure, if you're going for one of the rarer pieces the AD may take years to get it, but good things come to those who wait. My two cents.

[briboxer]

I post warnings whenever I can and most certainly appreciate the concerns, as I feel bad when people reach out to me to notify me there are impostors using my photos and listings to try and scam others. I don't always know this is happening if I have not been notified. And then I try and help where I can.
Furthermore, doing your due diligence is necessary, if you do it the right way.
I have been asked for reference for others, and am reluctant as I don't want to participate in someone else attempts to scam.
I think reaching out to someone that has left feedback, and verifying a phone number may be a start to make sure you are communicating with the right person.

[GradyPhilpott]

If you're new to the game, the best course is to buy locally from an AD or used/gray dealer who has a good reputation, backs his products, offers warranties, and satisfaction guarantees, and such.

There are sellers here who offer such services and reliability, but when you're just buying from a Joe Schmoe who has a watch to sell, you're playing Russian roulette.

There are a lot of posts on the board asking why one needs a relationship with ADs and sellers, and even more surprisingly, how to develop such relationships.

One thread like this should open the eyes of anyone.

[ltdan]

Maybe a forum with a sales section and what seems to have a large group of members that pay for the right to sell, the admins on the other end should invest in a trusted third party middle-man so sellers can ship the watch to them or do it themselves - like someone stated escrow is tricky. This avoids putting funds in different set of hands and allows for the watch to be verified before being paid for.

[PRD]

I think all these comments are helpful. I would advocate that as a start, buyers start to insist on more personal interactions with the sellers. Whether that be video chat, FaceTime, or similar platforms. In the COVID era we are all getting more familiar with these types of interfaces. Asking a seller to meet us virtually, while not a failsafe solution, is a start in putting a face to the seller, and eliminating the veil of anonymity that protects the scammers. It also serves to prove they actually have the watch in question, which I assume most scammers don’t. A small step, but I agree with comments above that the typical victims are the uninitiated, and those of us doing transactions regularly should offer some guidance.

[Pim]

I am one of the guys that became a bit more vocal this week because i have noticed the same thing, scammers are more active now than ever.

As the OP said, I think it is a shared responsibility and we all should see if we can participate in solving this problem.

On a forum where the staff are making money of sellers and have (a lot) of people giving money to maintain this forum it isn't a big ask to invest in security and join this discussion.
For sellers it should be obvious that they should convince their clients that their account is secure and the clients funds are safe.
For forum members it should be a know risk that if you do not take extra actions to secure your account that you or another forum member can be scammed.

SO lets not talk about making this forum more save and lets just start making progress by changing a couple of things...

1. make it mandatory for sellers to use 2FA
2. make it visible if accounts are secured by 2FA
3. move/delete old posts to a different section so that is clear the the add has expired
4. IP ban all offenders
5. much more to be done ............ insert wisdom here

[cop414]

You think that the forum “staff” is making money? Where did you get that information?

[rolehex]

Well I will chime in here. What I have seen a lot of lately is, buyers are getting a little better at doing their due diligence but are still getting scammed because they are relying on positive feedback from accounts that have been Pfished. Then the original users come into the thread saying. "Hey that wasn't me providing positive feedback to the seller... my account was hacked"! Which is BS, it wasn't hacked, YOU clicked on a link you shouldn't have, YOU provided your username and password, and YOUR mistake helped a scammer.

So how do we fix this?
I would recommend, nobody can post anything for sale until they have at least 100 posts and have been a member for say 6 months. I know they can just post a bunch of fluff to increase their post count but I find crooks usually like the easy way out so the more hurdles the better.

If an account gets Pfished, that account is frozen (the user name should have (LOCKED) of something next to their name) for 4 months until all possible scams /transactions would be over. I know this would not be ideal however the potential amount of money and hardship these scams can cause outweighs any inconvenience the original member would have to endure by sitting out a few months. Especially considering it was their mistake in the first place.

My 1&1/2 cents

[PRD]

I would appreciate any of the trusted sellers posting their comments on this topic. We all value the service you provide in selling watches. We want to ensure you stay in business and are successful, but perhaps sellers can suggest ways to make things safer.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by Pim

I am one of the guys that became a bit more vocal this week because i have noticed the same thing, scammers are more active now than ever.

As the OP said, I think it is a shared responsibility and we all should see if we can participate in solving this problem.

On a forum where the staff are making money of sellers and have (a lot) of people giving money to maintain this forum it isn't a big ask to invest in security and join this discussion.
For sellers it should be obvious that they should convince their clients that their account is secure and the clients funds are safe.
For forum members it should be a know risk that if you do not take extra actions to secure your account that you or another forum member can be scammed.

SO lets not talk about making this forum more save and lets just start making progress by changing a couple of things...

1. make it mandatory for sellers to use 2FA
2. make it visible if accounts are secured by 2FA
3. move/delete old posts to a different section so that is clear the the add has expired
4. IP ban all offenders
5. much more to be done ............ insert wisdom here

Moderators don't make a penny off this forum, we all give up our time voluntarily, and banning IPs is counterproductive in terms of forum security. For every scam that gets pulled here, by the way, there's dozens of scammers that get reported or caught in time. A lot of members keep their eyes open and let us know when they see something suspicious, or receive phishing PMs. Others just click on the link and give up their login details.

[GGGMT]

As noted, the mods don’t make anything. And I for one am grateful for them doing this amazing forum. They are not Internet fraud police, and even if they were getting paid, that’s not their job. This is the real world – – buyer beware, not kindergarten.

You don’t see DavidSW, Bobs, WatchBox, HQMilton, Jacek, or any of the boutique sellers getting hacked. Just buy from those dudes, of which there are many many. In addition, most of the stories are people coming here after they’ve already been defrauded. Why not come to the forum before you get defrauded – – in other words how about some due diligence before you send thousands of dollars to a stranger? Tired of the whiners losing money on the internet.


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[Old Farmer]

I know I am new at this, so probably not entitled to answer, but, with the Mods not making any money from this site{thank you}, is it a idea that this site act as a clearing house and gets paid to do so. Thus if you have a watch for sale, send it to TRF, they check it out and hold it until the vendor is paid.I know Ebay and Crono 24 offer such a service, but not very well.Was just an idea was all.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by Old Farmer

I know I am new at this, so probably not entitled to answer, but, with the Mods not making any money from this site{thank you}, is it a idea that this site act as a clearing house and gets paid to do so. Thus if you have a watch for sale, send it to TRF, they check it out and hold it until the vendor is paid.I know Ebay and Crono 24 offer such a service, but not very well.Was just an idea was all.

Hmm. Send it to TRF (wherever that is). Who would pay for the extra shipping costs, extra import duty, taxes in the third-party country where the inspection takes place, and which mod, wherever he may be located, has time in his day (or the knowledge of every single brand) to verify the dozens of watches that get sold here daily?

[wesdaniel]

I've long thought that there could be some money to be made in full-service third-party escrow services - a business model similar to Poshmark I guess. They charge 10% selling fees and all purchases >$500 go to them for authentication and then on to the purchaser.

I've been fortunate in that I've bought 17 watches through TRF and have only had good experiences; but, I've done extensive research on the sellers; tried to pay by PayPal (have only wired maybe 4 times). Additionally, I've walked away from probably as many deals as I've completed because I got spooked by one thing or another.

I think that, most of the time, when there's a scam, we can look back (after the fact) and see the red flags that were there; but, the buyer was caught up in getting a great deal and let their guard down.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by Old Farmer

I know I am new at this, so probably not entitled to answer, but, with the Mods not making any money from this site{thank you}, is it a idea that this site act as a clearing house and gets paid to do so. Thus if you have a watch for sale, send it to TRF, they check it out and hold it until the vendor is paid.I know Ebay and Crono 24 offer such a service, but not very well.Was just an idea was all.

What? I’m not sure how to respond other than to say:


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[77T]

For any proposed solution, the scammers evolve. Perhaps mandatory 2FA for all is a step to consider - like mandatory Covid-19 masks.

The victims we hear about here are likely a drop in the bucket of overall fraud in watch deals gone wrong.

Attacking TRF is daft methinks - and that BS about claiming Mods are complicit somehow??? It shows the level of ignorance and stupidity some members harbor.

With the boutiques now set-up, I don’t buy the line that prospective buyers can’t distinguish who are trusted sellers.


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[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by 77T

With the boutiques now set-up, I don’t buy the line that prospective buyers can’t distinguish who are trusted sellers.


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This is right. scams are avoidable and buyers generally— not always — but generally don’t do basic due diligence. Find sympathy elsewhere.


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[Pim]

Yes i made the assumption that the staff was getting paid based upon the huge amount of pledge members on this forum and somebody mentioning that there are business accounts here as well. I not, I stand corrected.
I never said that the mods are complicit and you're off the deep end if you read my post like that.

But I'm a bit shocked about the number of people here placing blame on users for getting scammed because they don't do enough due dilligence (?). I'm also dissapointed about the absence of usable solutions people come up with. All I read is problems and why stuff wouldn't work.

Hey at the end, it's not costing me money because I have a couple of trusted sellers near the place I live. But let's stop expressing our regret and compassion the next time some guys is scammed out of $10K+ through this forum because only a few people actually seem to want to try to prevent this.

Reminds me of twitter after some tragedy occurs, everybody starts to send "thoughs and prayers"
Well, this where my last 2cts

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by Pim

Yes i made the assumption that the staff was getting paid based upon the huge amount of pledge members on this forum and somebody mentioning that there are business accounts here as well. I not, I stand corrected.
I never said that the mods are complicit and you're off the deep end if you read my post like that.

But I'm a bit shocked about the number of people here placing blame on users for getting scammed because they don't do enough due dilligence (?). I'm also dissapointed about the absence of usable solutions people come up with. All I read is problems and why stuff wouldn't work.

Hey at the end, it's not costing me money because I have a couple of trusted sellers near the place I live. But let's stop expressing our regret and compassion the next time some guys is scammed out of $10K+ through this forum because only a few people actually seem to want to try to prevent this.

Reminds me of twitter after some tragedy occurs, everybody starts to send "thoughs and prayers"
Well, this where my last 2cts

Nope, not bitin’. With the boutique sellers here, and well established sellers all over the place, if you get scammed, you weren’t as careful as you should have been, in which case don’t come here for sympathy.


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[goldfixer21]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

Nope, not bitin’. With the boutique sellers here, and well established sellers all over the place, if you get scammed, you weren’t as careful as you should have been, in which case don’t come here for sympathy.


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^^^^this^^^^
This forum only allows sales as a courtesy. Anyone holding TRF responsible for them getting scammed, needs to find another place to hang out

[newenglandpatriot]

One way that works for me, and no one has even mentioned. Ask the seller where he is from. Find a jeweler in that area that knows the brand, and call them up. Ask the Jeweler if you can send the funds to him, and when the seller comes in, he gets paid, after verifying its authentic. Pay the Jeweler a fee and to ship it out. If the seller refuses to do that, walk away. RED FLAG! It works great, and everyone wins.

[nyyankees]

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

If you're new to the game, the best course is to buy locally from an AD or used/gray dealer who has a good reputation, backs his products, offers warranties, and satisfaction guarantees, and such.

There are sellers here who offer such services and reliability, but when you're just buying from a Joe Schmoe who has a watch to sell, you're playing Russian roulette.

There are a lot of posts on the board asking why one needs a relationship with ADs and sellers, and even more surprisingly, how to develop such relationships.

One thread like this should open the eyes of anyone.

This is right. Personally I think if you look at the Boutiques here that’s a safe bet that those sellers are the ones who never have problems. I have three I use and now one seller here who is my go to because the price is fair (maybe not the lowest) but I know I won’t have any issues. Not disparaging any individual sellers as with the right due diligence generally speaking the majority of those deals can be good too.


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