How to safely buy secondhand Pateks from individuals

[FrançoisCzapek]

Is it possible to safely buy a Patek from a stranger who is just a normal owner and not a dealer, especially if you are able to meet in person?

I saw this old but very helpful thread: https://forums.timezone.com/index.ph...=1265815&rid=0

Precautions include:
1. Get the case and movement number and check these independently with Patek and the local service center.
2. If feasible, meet the seller at the local service center and have them authenticate the watch, it's condition and it's servicing history.
3. Check if the seller is the first owner listed in the certificate of origin. Document the sale with a simple purchase agreement, ideally notarised before a notary public, to connect you to the certificate of origin.

Are these reasonable and should you run away if the seller refuses them? Even in low crime Singapore, there have been so many watch scams lately you just can't be too careful dealing with people you met online, right?

[draken1]

Consummate the transaction at the Service center where they can verify the authenticity and diagnose the watch in a time grapher.

[FrançoisCzapek]

If you reverse image search an online listing and you get a match from a Chron24 dealer from another continent, is that sure to be a scam?

[kanwind]

Always is...
Buy the seller, before buy the watch
if any kind of doubt, just walk away

[FrançoisCzapek]

And consummating transaction at an authorised dealer instead of service center is not helpful right?

[jon_jon]

Another option is to ask one of the many pre-owned watch dealers that buys and sells Patek in Singapore to be the "middleman" and "certify" the watch. Of course you would pay this watch dealer for their service.

[GB-man]

In my humble opinion it’s not worth it. Buy from someone with extensive feedback over many years. If their price is too high make them an offer.

Buying from private individuals without feedback should generally be reserved for dealers who are more savvy and have procedures in place to protect themselves.

[sensui]

There's actually not much mystery when it comes to this. Someone with no history/much feedback trying to sell a luxury watch wouldn't be something I'd ever consider unless 1) The individual understands to build a reputation you have to start somewhere and is willing to make concessions on pricing/authenticating process etc to work the sale 2). It's something that rare/desirable to the buyer in which case it's worth it for the buyer to jump through hoops to acquire. Otherwise, if it's a one off sale for the individual they should be doing consignment/selling to a watch dealer since their job is to facilitate these types of scenarios for collectors that don't have the time to scrutinize the transaction.

[2nastie]

It's like buying any pre-owned watch. Standard procedure.

Some extra and basic steps I do, is I type in the serial number on google. Most of the time clones, etc. use the same serial # and if your # pops up then of course, red flag.

Also depending on the model, I always google/look up potential clones and variations in the market. Dress pieces in particular are easier to tell as most copiers don't invest too much time into those due to complexity with complications and overall market demand. Sport pieces, I read up and keep an eye out on all the fine details.

Be it good seller or unknown seller. They are only good up to their last transaction.

You have to do your own thorough research. If you can bring it to a watchmaker who knows these pieces or Patek themselves, that would be the best. I certainly won't buy it from a random guy who appeared out of thin air, but if simply a guy who you haven't dealt with before just do your research.

[newonos]

Use an attorney as an escrow. Seller and Buyer execute escrow agreement stating that Buyer pays to attorney's trust account, and watch is delivered to attorney who does not deliver payment until Buyer confirms authenticity, to be done within X days. If there is a dispute, no money delivered until resolved, one way or another. If Buyer is scammer, he has watch but out money, ultimately money goes to Seller. If Seller is a scammer, watch comes back but money isn't gone.

[FrançoisCzapek]

What's the benefit of the attorney or escrow agent, especially if they do not have knowledge of watches? If you can meet in person at a service center, doesn't that beat any escrow arrangement?

[V25V]

As always, buy the seller. If anything feels off, walk.

[Vintyage]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

What's the benefit of the attorney or escrow agent, especially if they do not have knowledge of watches? If you can meet in person at a service center, doesn't that beat any escrow arrangement?

Of course it does. That’s the best possible scenario; an in person transaction and if it is possible, then please do. It’s better than an escrow agent.


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[FrançoisCzapek]

Ah sorry and thanks for the advice! I was thinking I would not be brave enough to do a used watch buy from an individual if it was not in person at a service center.

[newonos]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

What's the benefit of the attorney or escrow agent, especially if they do not have knowledge of watches? If you can meet in person at a service center, doesn't that beat any escrow arrangement?

The attorney is not the judge of authenticity. Seller ships to authenticator while attorney holds funds with written instructions to not release funds til watch is authenticated. I'm not shipping a watch unless I have confidence funds are held by neutral party. And I'm not sending funds to rando. I've seen this done with art before that didn't go thru a broker or auction house.

[mykii]

If I don't know the person, I wouldn't buy it frankly.

[JR16]

Short of what newonos recommended, I would not buy a patek from a random seller. Criminals will always be one step ahead of you.


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[FrançoisCzapek]

I don't understand, how is the escrow procedure better than in-person at service center, and how do both escrow and in-person at service center protect you from buying a watch that is stolen but unreported, assuming you're willing to try random seller?

[Mini2]

Just don't do it, If you're buying a watch of any significant value just think what IF something happens just fro the sake of saving a few $$$$
If you're buying Patek and worried about the dollars you should not be buying a Patek in the first place IMO

[77T]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

I don't understand, how is the escrow procedure better than in-person at service center, and how do both escrow and in-person at service center protect you from buying a watch that is stolen but unreported, assuming you're willing to try random seller?

An escrow service is only suitable when buying from a stranger remotely.

Since all the advice has been to only buy secondhand from a trusted seller then no need to discuss it further for your planned purchase.


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[faimag]

Bro, you are in Singapore. Patek from a private seller?! Tons!
Meet up for a coffee at Orchard, drop by Patek's store at ION, and deal with confidence.

[JR16]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

I don't understand, how is the escrow procedure better than in-person at service center, and how do both escrow and in-person at service center protect you from buying a watch that is stolen but unreported, assuming you're willing to try random seller?

Ok so you show up to service center, watch checks out. You give seller money . You both go on your way. 2 blocks away , seller’s buddy who has been casing you mugs you and takes watch. This scenario won’t happen w escrow agent.


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[fsprow]

I have purchased two Patek watches from private sellers the following way. This is for the US but might be helpful to you.
- Price is agreed on. Since for a preowned watch I always want to have it factory serviced, the price negotiated includes factory service - in the US at Henri Stern in New York City.
- After an appointment is made at Stern for the service, I meet the seller there and wait for the watch to be inspected by them. They will not accept a watch if it is not authentic.
- If accepted , I pay the seller with a bank note and they inform Henri Stern that I have purchased the watch and it is to be returned to me after service.

Never a problem, and compared to the price of a Patek, the seller going to New York has not been a difficulty.

[newonos]

Originally Posted by fsprow

I have purchased two Patek watches from private sellers the following way. This is for the US but might be helpful to you.
- Price is agreed on. Since for a preowned watch I always want to have it factory serviced, the price negotiated includes factory service - in the US at Henri Stern in New York City.
- After an appointment is made at Stern for the service, I meet the seller there and wait for the watch to be inspected by them. They will not accept a watch if it is not authentic.
- If accepted , I pay the seller with a bank note and they inform Henri Stern that I have purchased the watch and it is to be returned to me after service.

Never a problem, and compared to the price of a Patek, the seller going to New York has not been a difficulty.

Genius

[Partekular]

An interesting series of responses.

Personally speaking, it is for these reasons I will only buy new from a PP AD.

For those individuals wishing to sell how should they go about it if no one trusts them? Won’t grey dealers rip them off?

Me, I’ve seen the adverts and will leave that problem to my son!

[faimag]

Originally Posted by JR16

Ok so you show up to service center, watch checks out. You give seller money . You both go on your way. 2 blocks away , seller’s buddy who has been casing you mugs you and takes watch. This scenario won’t happen w escrow agent.


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This scenario also doesn't happen in Singapore, where the OP is located.

[Calatrava r]

What occurs to me is getting third parties getting involved in a watch sale transaction. If something goes wrong, are they liable in any way? Why would a bank or service center put themselves in the middle of a watch transaction which may have issues they have no way of knowing?

[Calatrava r]

I personally do not like face-to-face transactions with anybody not known or verified by a reliable source. Much too easy to get robbed or scammed by a compatriot during or after the deal. I would work with a used watch dealer, used wholesale is obviously not used retail, but in actuality, private sellers with no real history are going have to discount to make a sale happen and the final price may not be much more than a clean dealer transaction with free shipping.

[jfriedkin]

I know this sounds stupid, but it works. Have the individual list the watch on Ebay with a buy-it-now price. Ebay uses an Authenticator and escrow service.

[FrançoisCzapek]

Changes the economics of an in-person transaction with an individual.