Question about ETA/Tudor 2784

[douglasf13]

Hi. I recently purchased a Tudor Jumbo, and then had a local watchmaker service the movement. My question is, what kind of accuracy should I expect from this ETA 2784 moment inside a watch from 1979? I've received the watch back from service, and it easily looses 15 seconds per day in just about every position, except crown down, which gains some time. When I leave the the watch crown down over night, it averages to losing around 10 seconds per day, and much more in any other position. Ultimately, it's not really keeping any better time than before I sent it in.

I embarrassingly paid an egregious amount for the service, so do you think I should expect more from a movement this old? Thanks!

[Old Expat Beast]

Should definitely perform a lot better than that. It would be useful to know the current amplitude and beat error as indicators of movement health. Whoever did the service should have those numbers at the very least.

[alwayshere]

Wasn’t serviced properly. Shouldn’t be swinging wild like that.

[douglasf13]

Thanks, all. I’ll take it back in.

[77T]

One thing you might do is chart your accuracy observations. If the watchmaker did not know you before this service, there might be a tendency to disregard your dissatisfaction.

In your original post you didn’t mention a few things that are worth jotting down. Just some ideas to demonstrate a methodical approach.

Start with fully winding the watch and noting the day/time your observations occurred. Note the Internet time source you used. If you work outdoors each day then the high temperature is worth noting, but if you’re an office worker with normal indoor temperatures then not worth noting.

Wear the watch normally for at least 12 hours Day 1, note the position upon which you rest the watch overnight. Observe and note time loss/gain at same time of day on Day 2 that you began the process on Day 1.

Follow that process for at least a week. Each day be sure to note loss/gain, hours worn, resting position and time of day the observation was made.

Then calculate your average accuracy over the week by toting your the various gains/losses each day.

None of this is expected by a watchmaker. But if you provide such a record then your claim will be accepted as an objective fact versus dismissed as a subjective opinion.


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[douglasf13]

Originally Posted by 77T

One thing you might do is chart your accuracy observations. If the watchmaker did not know you before this service, there might be a tendency to disregard your dissatisfaction.

In your original post you didn’t mention a few things that are worth jotting down. Just some ideas to demonstrate a methodical approach.

Start with fully winding the watch and noting the day/time your observations occurred. Note the Internet time source you used. If you work outdoors each day then the high temperature is worth noting, but if you’re an office worker with normal indoor temperatures then not worth noting.

Wear the watch normally for at least 12 hours Day 1, note the position upon which you rest the watch overnight. Observe and note time loss/gain at same time of day on Day 2 that you began the process on Day 1.

Follow that process for at least a week. Each day be sure to note loss/gain, hours worn, resting position and time of day the observation was made.

Then calculate your average accuracy over the week by toting your the various gains/losses each day.

None of this is expected by a watchmaker. But if you provide such a record then your claim will be accepted as an objective fact versus dismissed as a subjective opinion.


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Thanks. I’ve been charting it with a phone app, and I also threw it on my timegrapher. All of my Rolex watches have been less than 20 years old, so just wanted to make sure I didn’t have expectations that were too high for an older movement.

[fsprow]

My experience is that the ETA movement is excellent and should show a precision of not more than +/- 5 spd. If your watch is running 10 spd slow with regularity, as worn, my guess is that it just needs to be regulated, a simple job (see YouTube) as you have a timegrapher, if you wish.

[douglasf13]

Thanks, all. When I get back home next week I’ll throw it on my timegrapher and show you the numbers.

[douglasf13]

Hi again. I wanted to show you all the timegrapher numbers in 4 positions (fully wound and then let it sit for 15 minutes,) as well as my timer app. I've been leaving the crown down at night, which gets me to around 10 seconds slow per day.

The more opinions the merrier, because I'm starting to believe the watchmaker didn't do much of anything, and I'll need some ammo going in there. Thanks!

[77T]

I guess crown down makes that Tudor your best outdoor watch!

If you were idling in a hammock it wouldn’t be as good I suppose.


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[douglasf13]

Originally Posted by 77T

I guess crown down makes that Tudor your best outdoor watch!

If you were idling in a hammock it wouldn’t be as good I suppose.


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Yeah, perfect for Irish dancing! What do you think of those numbers? I'm not crazy about accuracy or anything, but doesn't seem like what I'd see from a new service, and the watchmaker also didn't replace the clearly stuggling crown stem, and left some lint on the dial, so I'm really questioning the service.

[77T]

Well to be fair, try 12 up & 12 down to see what you get for numbers if you’re headed back soon.

But I believe you ought to chart it after a month or so to eliminate the “breaking in” effect of the lube migrating from its accumulation in the cups of the jewels.

Then (without the timegrapher) just chart it over a week in normal use for an average accuracy.

Or…optionally…go temp crazy…
Leave it outside to get up to 75~80° and try your readings - then into the fridge for an hour to get down to ~ 40°. What do you get then?


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[Tools]

Originally Posted by douglasf13

Yeah, perfect for Irish dancing! What do you think of those numbers? I'm not crazy about accuracy or anything, but doesn't seem like what I'd see from a new service, and the watchmaker also didn't replace the clearly stuggling crown stem, and left some lint on the dial, so I'm really questioning the service.

It's not necessarily the overall service that affects the timing, it is the final regulation, worn parts should have been replaced though.

It is not unusual for a 40+ year old watch to be 10 seconds out, although many times they can be regulated to better reflect your wearing habits.

Timeographs don't always tell you how it is performing in use. If, after wearing it for a while, you see it consistently at -10 seconds, you can have a watchmaker set it to run slightly faster to match you.

[douglasf13]

Originally Posted by 77T

Well to be fair, try 12 up & 12 down to see what you get for numbers if you’re headed back soon.

But I believe you ought to chart it after a month or so to eliminate the “breaking in” effect of the lube migrating from its accumulation in the cups of the jewels.

Then (without the timegrapher) just chart it over a week in normal use for an average accuracy.

Or…optionally…go temp crazy…
Leave it outside to get up to 75~80° and try your readings - then into the fridge for an hour to get down to ~ 40°. What do you get then?


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Thanks. It's been two weeks, and the timing on the watch keeping app hasn't budged at an average of around 10 seconds (sleeping with crown down,) so I'm not confident it would change after two more.

I should mention that this egregiously expensive serve was performed in only 5 days, which is why I agreed to the price.

[douglasf13]

Originally Posted by Tools

It's not necessarily the overall service that affects the timing, it is the final regulation, worn parts should have been replaced though.

It is not unusual for a 40+ year old watch to be 10 seconds out, although many times they can be regulated to better reflect your wearing habits.

Timeographs don't always tell you how it is performing in use. If, after wearing it for a while, you see it consistently at -10 seconds, you can have a watchmaker set it to run slightly faster to match you.

Thanks. Yeah, I don't want to go crazy with the timegrapher. I've just not had a watch with such variance in position, especially -23 seconds. Usually, finding the right position over night gets me a couple of seconds back, not 10+.

[77T]

I agree with Larry that RE-regulating the watch could be the trick.

But I would wait a while (movement lube, parts, barrel drum & mainspring grease, etc settle in to their symbiosis)

While you’re at it, perhaps check the power reserve too.


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[douglasf13]

Originally Posted by 77T

I agree with Larry that RE-regulating the watch could be the trick.

But I would wait a while (movement lube, parts, barrel drum & mainspring grease, etc settle in to their symbiosis)

While you’re at it, perhaps check the power reserve too.


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Ok, I'll check back in a couple more weeks. Thanks!

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by douglasf13

I should mention that this egregiously expensive serve was performed in only 5 days, which is why I agreed to the price.

That sounds ominous for me. My Tudor Jumbo Date-Day needs a movement service and a hand relume. The lume that fell out must have gotten into the movement via the day/date windows, because it's nowhere to be seen. #Ouch

Can you give a ballpark figure on how much the movement service cost?

I'll brace myself...

[Old Expat Beast]

I'd be happy with the amplitude and beat error for that vintage. It only takes a few hours to service a movement, but five days is a bit fast for thorough regulation.

[Dan S]

The timing results don't seem outrageous to me, especially since we don't really know the condition of the movement in terms of wear and tear. If it were regulated to be about 10s faster overall, it would probably be just fine.

[alwayshere]

all the watchmaker needs to do is adjust for beat error - amplitude is fine. That should hopefully bring the swings down.

[douglasf13]

Originally Posted by Dan S

The timing results don't seem outrageous to me, especially since we don't really know the condition of the movement in terms of wear and tear. If it were regulated to be about 10s faster overall, it would probably be just fine.

Thanks. I guess I assumed the wear and tear items would be replaced, so that would be less of an issue.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by douglasf13

Thanks. I guess I assumed the wear and tear items would be replaced, so that would be less of an issue.

Only if you paid for it, and you would probably know what parts were replaced since you would get them back from most watchmakers. When you are having an old watch like this serviced, not all servicing is the same To keep it simple and cheap, it's common for a watchmaker to simply do a COA and re-use parts as long as they're basically functional. If you want them to carefully inspect every part under a microscope and potentially make repairs to (or replace) bearings, pivots, wheels, and other moving parts, that is a whole other level of service that isn't generally performed by your corner watchmaker. It requires a high level of skill and attention to detail, and a willingness to hunt down replacement parts (or even fabricate them). Not surprisingly, the type of service I'm talking about is not cheap.

For a really high-value watch maybe you want to pay for the full monte. But for a vanilla mid-level vintage piece, I would be happy to have a routine service done and get the level of performance you have. If it were just regulated a little better, it might even be within original specs.

[douglasf13]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Only if you paid for it, and you would probably know what parts were replaced since you would get them back from most watchmakers. When you are having an old watch like this serviced, not all servicing is the same To keep it simple and cheap, it's common for a watchmaker to simply do a COA and re-use parts as long as they're basically functional. If you want them to carefully inspect every part under a microscope and potentially make repairs to (or replace) bearings, pivots, wheels, and other moving parts, that is a whole other level of service that isn't generally performed by your corner watchmaker. It requires a high level of skill and attention to detail, and a willingness to hunt down replacement parts (or even fabricate them). Not surprisingly, the type of service I'm talking about is not cheap.

For a really high-value watch maybe you want to pay for the full monte. But for a vanilla mid-level vintage piece, I would be happy to have a routine service done and get the level of performance you have. If it were just regulated a little better, it might even be within original specs.

She claimed to be Rolex and Omega certified, and, after inspecting the watch overnight, she quoted me over $800. Maybe it was naive to assume that would be more than just a cleaning on an ETA movement. I mean, she even showed how the crown was an issue and only screwed on in a quarter turn, but she didn’t even replace the stem.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by douglasf13

She claimed to be Rolex and Omega certified, and, after inspecting the watch overnight, she quoted me over $800. Maybe it was naive to assume that would be more than just a cleaning on an ETA movement. I mean, she even showed how the crown was an issue and only screwed on in a quarter turn, but she didn’t even replace the stem.

Well, that's certainly not cheap for that watch IMO, and someone who charges that much and claims to be "certified" would typically return any replaced parts and would often provide some details about any repairs that were made.

In any case, I suspect that she would be happy to regulate the watch so that the average rate is more accurate if you tell her that it is typically running -10s/day under your normal use. I wouldn't expect a big improvement in the positional variation, however.

[Old Expat Beast]

Wow. $800. Just as a benchmark, Michael Young's Classic Watch Repair in HK would charge $200 and give you a fairly detailed report including before and after Timegrapher printouts, pressure test result, etc.

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Wow. $800. Just as a benchmark, Michael Young's Classic Watch Repair in HK would charge $200 and give you a fairly detailed report including before and after Timegrapher printouts, pressure test result, etc.

I suspect comparing HK to US prices might not be comparable but $800 does sound high given what the OP received in the end.

[douglasf13]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Wow. $800. Just as a benchmark, Michael Young's Classic Watch Repair in HK would charge $200 and give you a fairly detailed report including before and after Timegrapher printouts, pressure test result, etc.

That's what I'm saying. I figured the fast turnaround would be part of the reason to pay more, but I expected a perfect (as can be) watch afterwards with any parts replaced as needed. $820 for just a simple cleaning is obscene.

What really gets me is that I contacted the usual watchmaker I go to for a simple pressure test, since this watch was allegedly serviced before I recently bought it. Because of the pandemic, they only do scheduled appointments and no longer do simple pressure tests, so they sent me to the watchmaker in question. When I took it to her, she took it home, said the watch movement was filthy, the gaskets didn't look good, and crown didn't seat right, so it needed a service. I agreed to the crazy price, since the turnaround was fast, and now I have a watch that doesn't seem to be running better then when I got it (around -10 seconds off.) I think sending to Tudor themselves is considerably cheaper for a (no-case polish) service.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

I suspect comparing HK to US prices might not be comparable but $800 does sound high given what the OP received in the end.

I dunno, people compare Michael Young's prices with Rolliworks and other bracelet fixers, etc. And you can send him your watch from the USA with only probably another $100 in shipping, so that would be less than half price for what seems to be a better job.

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by douglasf13

I think sending to Tudor themselves is considerably cheaper for a (no-case polish) service.

I don't think the RSC would accept these for service due to their age.