New collector challenges (gripes vs state of affairs)

[gliazzurri]

Throwing this out there for both the seasoned and new to the hobby folks...

I'm relatively new to the game of this hobby. Just a few years of study and pursuit and interest, though always appreciated the hobby from afar. Tough times for new collectors it would appear in some regards, especially if looking for more rare brands or models. I've found good satisfaction honing into certain brands now but still remain interested in others out there, some being the unobtainable or impossible ones.

Beyond the expected responses of "just look at different brands" or "there's so many other nice options out there" what do you all think about the state of affairs? I like certain flavors of ice cream and sometimes I just won't have it if I don't like the options. Some brands/models are just technically what I am looking for (FPJ etc) but you just can't even get one. It is painfully humorous to read these other threads of people being told to wait 10 years for a VC for example or whatever else is like that. One might as well just forget the whole idea. I'd love to get into the higher range models of FPJ or other series for example but as predicted am told it is not going to happen.

I don't expect manufacturers multiply their builds but what do you all think of the situation? It's just such a pity. These items were luxury even before things got all wild with the market, and was nice that you could go buy one in store. Unfortunately this was before I really had passion to do so.

It is bittersweet in some ways but also disappointing. Looking for therapy on the topic or group identity to help get your thoughts. Some of you have all the great models and some of you are like me looking for them.

What are we to do exactly? Obvious answer is just wait or pick other things, but there's something that really grinds me the wrong way on that. Looking for answers and your emotions beyond simple answers of "supply and demand" speak.

[beshannon]

I wish you luck, I stopped reading when you called this a "game".

[gliazzurri]

A bit harsh I’d say and would have hoped for more than that.

I’m speaking colloquially and have no interest in what you probably intend to mean.
Perhaps you should consider it from the pov I am writing. It does feel like a game for someone in my shoes.
Stepping out of your role might be a helpful piece of advice and is really my point of writing this.

[1William]

Such is the current state of affairs for the collector. You could use this time to educate yourself about brands and various watches but nothing replaces ownership when it comes to watches. For many it is going to always be about money. In todays market you can purchase basically anything you want but msrp is out the window for a lot of watches. Which throws you into the AD games and bundling items you do not want. I have been involved in collecting/wearing/buying/selling for more than 30 years and this market will pass, as we know it. Will we go back to full showcases and msrp or discounts off msrp, I doubt it but stranger things have happened. I would suggest finding at least one watch the is reasonably obtainable that you really like and go after it. Part of the fun is the chase. I hope this has been somewhat responsive.

[GB-man]

You can absolutely get higher end FPJ you just have to wait in line like everyone else. I have been waiting 15 months for my incoming Journe and have other models I’ll end up waiting multiple years for. Such is the case when you have 8-900 watches for the entire world and no plans to increase production.

[Giangos]

Its a rough time to start out, I suggest you go and look at any number of brands other than Rolex, VC, AP or PP.

If these are the brands you’re looking for, then you’re here because of the hype and it won’t easily work out for you without a huge dose of patience, or a will to go grey.

Montblanc
Grand Seiko
Breitling
Bravur
IWC
Omega
Panerai
et al

I am sure you get the idea, there are a dozen others. Not everyone needs a BLNR to be in the “game”.

All of these have merit and none will disappoint.


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[brandrea]

It’s a tough time if you’re starting out, I agree

There really is no magic bullet.

If the flavour of the month for you happens to be a high demand brand, you have two choices: buy at the AD and potentially deal with wait times, or pay up and go gray.

If you’re willing to try a new flavour, there are plenty of technically advanced brands that rival the others

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by Giangos

Its a rough time to start out, I suggest you go and look at any number of brands other than Rolex, VC, AP or PP.

If these are the brands you’re looking for, then you’re here because of the hype and it won’t easily work out for you without a huge dose of patience, or a will to go grey.

Montblanc
Grand Seiko
Breitling
Bravur
IWC
Omega
Panerai
et al

I am sure you get the idea, there are a dozen others. Not everyone needs a BLNR to be in the “game”.

All of these have merit and none will disappoint.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for your comments. As well as to the other useful on point ones here.

To be frank, I have literally zero interest in Rolex, PP, AP or VC. So I'm not that guy. Never have been and never will.

To get the higher end pieces though (from the start), I'm happy to wait. But how realistic is that for no history. And as you all know, you can't really get introductory models (which I don't really want either to be honest).

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

AIt does feel like a game for someone in my shoes.

So what do you do if you cannot get another product or service you want?

Do you enjoy horology? What kind of watches and complications do you want to own and wear? How familiar are you with history, tradition and innovation of the Swiss, German and Japanese watch industries? When I started collecting I went with what I could afford that I liked and worked my way up over years and years.

When you call it a game, it suggests to me that you are not really serious but want to get more involved because you feel like you have to.

Sorry if you were offended, please tell us how you react to not being able to get other products or services?

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by beshannon

So what do you do if you cannot get another product or service you want?

Do you enjoy horology? What kind of watches and complications do you want to own and wear? How familiar are you with history, tradition and innovation of the Swiss, German and Japanese watch induistries?

When you call it a game, it suggests to me that you are not really serious but want to get more involved because you feel like you have to.

Sorry if you were offended, please tell us how you react to not being able to get other products or services?

I think you are overinterpreting. My level of seriousness is evident to me and whether you or anyone can perceive that is really not the question or relevant. My comment was a semi-emotional statement about my experience as an individual who is very passionate about hobbies that I get into (dive deep style) but can't get to tangibility for the reasons noted. It feels like a game as is noted in countless other arenas of buying luxury items in the past years (not only COVID times but frankly even the last 5-10 years in some sectors (cars)). You have to follow a series of levels to get to something you want and if you don't complete the path you are stuck. I realize there are some that come here to ask questions about value and those individuals are promptly shunned. I don't think my question about this is on that level. I'm trying to reach out to a community here that in many cases has been in the know and seeking any guidance or thoughts. Having to qualify myself as serious seems beyond the scope of what is necessary here to be frank. I'm not really sure how to even propose an answer to that and do not have a resume to produce for review of any members here.

As noted, I am relatively new to this scene for a few years, thus would be de facto interested in horology. I appreciate a lot of the independent manufacturers out there, though may not want to own many just from an aesthetic point of view. I have done extensive research on the various companies, some large and some smaller who are discussed here frequently.

Regarding your question, which is effectively a remodeling of my original question (in which I was really looking for counsel from others of how you all deal with the same issue)...I don't think there are many options from my point of view. You don't get to buy something you want, so you don't buy it, you wait if able, or you buy something else. In my case, I have not bought things I would like to, I have tried to wait (without any certainty) and I have also bought other things. But I remain interested in some higher end models of the types already noted in my posts above, but am not sure if those can be secured.

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

I don't think there are many options from my point of view. You don't get to buy something you want, so you don't buy it

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=818218

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=854064

[JR16]

If you are interested in high end independents I would suggest building relationships by visiting company owned boutiques, and/or ADs that specialize in multi-brand independents (eg Cellini in NYC, exquisite timepieces in Naples)- you can spend the next year or two learning about brands in great detail, maybe meeting people in those companies , and putting a deposit down or your name down for watches that cost $20k, $100k, $150k etc. You will get one it will just take time. Alternatively if you just want to be able to try on a bunch of watches from different brands and would consider buying pre owned you can build a relationship with a large trusted seller who has a lot of inventory if they are near you - eg Watchbox, EWC, DSW.


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[brandrea]

Maybe you can tell us specifically what references you are interested in?

[enjoythemusic]

(Deeeep sigh) As an enthusaists for decades you came into this at the 'worst time' for availability (and demand sanity). Since you already know the craziness, then if you look back historically you'll realize it was never like this. Sure there were ups and downs, yet not to this extent on the up-side.

Of course there's the other side of this at some point, and that will 'shake out' the profiteers to some extent.

The BIG PLUS to all this is that more people are now aware of the mechanical timepiece industry. With higher recognition also means there are more buyers, as in true customers and not profiteers, than before this recent uptick. So once the other side of this financialization madness happens (down-side), the timepiece industry will still come out of this with more enthusiasts than were there pre-2019.

jmho

PS: Also on the plus side, many independent watchmakers have flourished quite well. We're also starting to see more transparency in the industry as the whole 'Swiss Secret' thing is no longer acceptable to many consumers. We're also seeing very impressive, dare i say historically high, craftsmanship and creativity not seen by typical mainstream brands.

This, in turn, is bringing great challenges (and perhaps headaches) to the falsehood of the long-outdated 'Holy Trinity'. Hopefully the timepiece industry 'authorities' realize this and take action to choose a 'Modern Holy Trinity'.

again, jmho

[charger_vital]

I think it's a great time to get in the "game." By the way, nothing wrong with that term, I use it all the time... getting married, having kids, starting a career, and many other so-called serious affairs, let alone having a watch hobby. Relax with the semantics police over there!

It's a great time to get into the "game" because there has never before been so much accessible information about watches, and so many passionate people disseminating it. Most of the fun with watches is learning about them - their composition, skill & time required to make the history/significance of the model, the history/significance of the brand, etc. Really digging out those details. And then bouncing ideas off of the other crazys on this forum. Granted some information has always been available for the Rolex's and Omegas of the world. But until more recently the literature focused on how the pieces were marketed in the 60s and which Bond character wore what. Interesting to be sure, but limited in depth.

Today, the watchmakers themselves are becoming icons because of the amazing pieces they are creating. The industry is looking much more like a world of art and artists than a world of brand placement.

Lucky for you there are a ton of options since you don't want a Rolex VC,PP,AP anyway.

English brands are making a push with the likes of Fears, Garrick, and Roger Smith. Those range from very affordable to infinity... Garrick is killer in my opinion and crazy underpriced.

American brands are underrated: RGM, Weiss, Myrick all offer a very cool range of pieces and interesting guys behind them... Their pieces stand up to many of the Euro independents (especially RGM).

Russia has some cool stuff: Chaykin, Tsoroev and Nesterenko... various price points for a range of preferences.

Then of course you have the Swiss brands like FPJ, Voutilainen, Ferrier, Trilobe, Czapek, MB&F (to name a fraction) all of whom have amazing "startup" stories. If you identify more with real people starting real businesses and making exceptional pieces versus wanting to look like Sean Connery in Goldfinger, then let the rabbit hole begin. I think you'll find that these watches are every bit as good and potentially better than the PP,AP,VC models in terms of quality, and much more interesting. Ferrier and Czapek stand out to me personally.

So my advice to you is to grab a bottle of nice wine, pull up to a computer, and start reading about the ecosystem. Watch youtube channels like thelimitededition, watches tv, Theo & Harris, Tim Mosso to name a few... perhaps throw in a little Paul Pluta to keep it real... and if you are really into this "game" you'll arrive at the right place.

You asked for our opinions... and that's mine. Take it or leave it.

[Yobrooks]

Just to add my 2cents... Lots of great comments and suggestions posted. Brands like Moser, Grönefeld, Grand Seiko, FPJ, etc...all provide excellent opportunities to advance your knowledge, collection and passion for all different price ranges and styles. You just need to establish an honest and professional relationship with dealers that can obtain lots of different brands, even if a wait is needed. Enjoy the journey, you never know where it will lead.

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[_speedmaster_]

The majority of this is the predictability of human nature. Generally, it is human nature to want what others have and be drawn to things that are hard to obtain. It is more satisfying to obtain something that takes patience and/or connections. It is a rarity for someone to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a watch that only a handful of people want. Tens of thousands of dollars on a watch that will garner zero praise or attention from anyone you meet....because who the hell has heard of Beat Haldimann?

Take the submariner...waitlists upon waitlists. Meanwhile, readily available are the BP Fifty Fathoms, Omega 300m and GO SeaQ. All three of those watches are at least on par with the sub, if not better in certain aspects. Yet, everyone still wants a sub.

Same thing goes for independents. People waiting for years for a Journe or Kari. Beat Haldimann will hand build you a watch without even using CNC. Atelier de Chronometrie will customize a watch down to the case and lugs for you. But....they are not en vogue. So, I must have that Journe or Kari. Only that flavor of ice cream will do.

If you want to avoid all of this...do what I do and look to brands that are not popular. The end product is the equivalent (if not better) than what the masses chase. The only drawback is you can't impress a non-WIS (a plus for me).

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

today, the watchmakers themselves are becoming icons because of the amazing pieces they are creating. The industry is looking much more like a world of art and artists than a world of brand placement.

Support_Artists.jpg

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

The only drawback is you can't impress a non-WIS (a plus for me).

That's because you're a Raver

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Attachment 1291326




That's because you're a Raver

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

That's because you're a Raver

My wife would agree. Haha

[thewatchidiot]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

Throwing this out there for both the seasoned and new to the hobby folks...

I'm relatively new to the game of this hobby. Just a few years of study and pursuit and interest, though always appreciated the hobby from afar. Tough times for new collectors it would appear in some regards, especially if looking for more rare brands or models. I've found good satisfaction honing into certain brands now but still remain interested in others out there, some being the unobtainable or impossible ones.

Beyond the expected responses of "just look at different brands" or "there's so many other nice options out there" what do you all think about the state of affairs? I like certain flavors of ice cream and sometimes I just won't have it if I don't like the options. Some brands/models are just technically what I am looking for (FPJ etc) but you just can't even get one. It is painfully humorous to read these other threads of people being told to wait 10 years for a VC for example or whatever else is like that. One might as well just forget the whole idea. I'd love to get into the higher range models of FPJ or other series for example but as predicted am told it is not going to happen.

I don't expect manufacturers multiply their builds but what do you all think of the situation? It's just such a pity. These items were luxury even before things got all wild with the market, and was nice that you could go buy one in store. Unfortunately this was before I really had passion to do so.

It is bittersweet in some ways but also disappointing. Looking for therapy on the topic or group identity to help get your thoughts. Some of you have all the great models and some of you are like me looking for them.

What are we to do exactly? Obvious answer is just wait or pick other things, but there's something that really grinds me the wrong way on that. Looking for answers and your emotions beyond simple answers of "supply and demand" speak.

As odd as this may sound, I’ve rarely read any persons articulation of why they want the particular watch that they want that couldn’t be met by a hundred other options. I don’t think this is a bad time at all for new hobbyist’s. It’s a great time as there are choices galore from every price point.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by brandrea

Maybe you can tell us specifically what references you are interested in?

Thanks for the response. I'd love to buy an FPJ Optimum to be honest. Maybe I'll get laughed out of here because I have no history with them but of all the options I find it the most technically interesting. I have a variety of Mosers and am very happy with them as well as Lange. But I'm in the pick and choose category now of other types and this fits my target of what I love about the brand and technical mastery.

[gliazzurri]

Thank you for all of the other helpful comments. I appreciate your input and am grateful.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

Thanks for the response. I'd love to buy an FPJ Optimum to be honest. Maybe I'll get laughed out of here because I have no history with them but of all the options I find it the most technically interesting. I have a variety of Mosers and am very happy with them as well as Lange. But I'm in the pick and choose category now of other types and this fits my target of what I love about the brand and technical mastery.

Have you considered the Lang & Heyne Konrad? It has a constant force remontoire and deadbeat second just like the Optimum, while also adding a retrograde date. It’s also available, cheaper and better finished.

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by JR16

If you are interested in high end independents I would suggest building relationships by visiting company owned boutiques, and/or ADs that specialize in multi-brand independents (eg Cellini in NYC, exquisite timepieces in Naples)- you can spend the next year or two learning about brands in great detail, maybe meeting people in those companies , and putting a deposit down or your name down for watches that cost $20k, $100k, $150k etc. You will get one it will just take time. Alternatively if you just want to be able to try on a bunch of watches from different brands and would consider buying pre owned you can build a relationship with a large trusted seller who has a lot of inventory if they are near you - eg Watchbox, EWC, DSW.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thanks...tried to reach out...can't always go and meet unfortunately but I've tried to advise. Just seems like a lot of "talk to the hand" answers of you're too late to the show.

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

I think it's a great time to get in the "game." By the way, nothing wrong with that term, I use it all the time... getting married, having kids, starting a career, and many other so-called serious affairs, let alone having a watch hobby. Relax with the semantics police over there!

It's a great time to get into the "game" because there has never before been so much accessible information about watches, and so many passionate people disseminating it. Most of the fun with watches is learning about them - their composition, skill & time required to make the history/significance of the model, the history/significance of the brand, etc. Really digging out those details. And then bouncing ideas off of the other crazys on this forum. Granted some information has always been available for the Rolex's and Omegas of the world. But until more recently the literature focused on how the pieces were marketed in the 60s and which Bond character wore what. Interesting to be sure, but limited in depth.

Today, the watchmakers themselves are becoming icons because of the amazing pieces they are creating. The industry is looking much more like a world of art and artists than a world of brand placement.

Lucky for you there are a ton of options since you don't want a Rolex VC,PP,AP anyway.

English brands are making a push with the likes of Fears, Garrick, and Roger Smith. Those range from very affordable to infinity... Garrick is killer in my opinion and crazy underpriced.

American brands are underrated: RGM, Weiss, Myrick all offer a very cool range of pieces and interesting guys behind them... Their pieces stand up to many of the Euro independents (especially RGM).

Russia has some cool stuff: Chaykin, Tsoroev and Nesterenko... various price points for a range of preferences.

Then of course you have the Swiss brands like FPJ, Voutilainen, Ferrier, Trilobe, Czapek, MB&F (to name a fraction) all of whom have amazing "startup" stories. If you identify more with real people starting real businesses and making exceptional pieces versus wanting to look like Sean Connery in Goldfinger, then let the rabbit hole begin. I think you'll find that these watches are every bit as good and potentially better than the PP,AP,VC models in terms of quality, and much more interesting. Ferrier and Czapek stand out to me personally.

So my advice to you is to grab a bottle of nice wine, pull up to a computer, and start reading about the ecosystem. Watch youtube channels like thelimitededition, watches tv, Theo & Harris, Tim Mosso to name a few... perhaps throw in a little Paul Pluta to keep it real... and if you are really into this "game" you'll arrive at the right place.

You asked for our opinions... and that's mine. Take it or leave it.

All great ideas thanks...yes when I said deep dive, I have done all of what you mention and more. I've played out so many videos repeatedly and more on all the typical sites/podcasts etc. Even Pluta at times, though hard to stomach at times with the intonation.
Appreciate any input again.

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

Have you considered the Lang & Heyne Konrad? It has a constant force remontoire and deadbeat second just like the Optimum, while also adding a retrograde date. It’s also available, cheaper and better finished.

Thanks for this suggestion. I did know of it. There is something about the visibility of the FPJ model both front and back that I find romantic and mysterious to be honest regarding the mechanism and that it is displayed to view at all times unlike many others that are "under the hood" makes me drawn to it. That's why that piece is particularly interesting to me. I appreciate your looking out on this.

[Aldwyn]

What do I think of the state of things? Stupid. Insane. Crazy. But seems to mimic other markets.

For example, the big names in watches are commanding higher than retail for older models. I bought an Explorer II for 6K, for example several years ago. Traded it in for what I paid for it. And were I to buy that watch again today, I would be paying 12K for it. Insane.

Last week, one of my co-workers sold his truck to a chevy dealer, and was paid more for his truck then he paid when he bought it! Again... crazy.

I have a few more examples, but I know I am preaching to the choir.

So, I am going to say what you said you expected: There are a ton of brands out there that deserve a look. Some well known (Longines, Hamilton, Nomos) and some not so well known (Ming,Vortic)... that dont command the crazy prices of the Rolexes, APs, PP, etc. do today.

It really is the perfect time to buy boutique, or even "entry level" high end watches.

[shafran]

Its funny. I owned journe watches when they were on the resale market way below retail. Noone was giving them a second look and noone wanted to buy them. Are they now so popular becasue others want them? or did noone ever hear of them before?

[gliazzurri]

I suppose there are many who want them because others want them. I know I want it because I want it and appreciate the aesthetics. Could care less of the hype train.