[question] Rolex Kermit 16610lv

[watchpat]

Hi everyone, I am looking to add a new piece to my collection and I am looking at the Rolex Kermit 16610lv. However, I am not sure if I can justify the difference in price between a regular one and a fat four.
Which one would you recommend and why?
Thanks in advance.

[mquarter]

The price isn't justified if it's not for speculation. The visual difference is basically imperceptible.

[Andad]

I have an ‘M’ with the Rolex rehaute and I suppose I could call it an ‘anniversary’ model.

If you want the actual 50th year anniversary model with a flat 4 you may need to source a late Y to mid F.
I don’t think the first ‘Y’s fours were flat.

The first ‘Y’ was released at 49 years.

If you want the ‘real deal’ you need the Press pack for cred.

Quote from the web:

A VERY RARE ROLEX SUBMARINER 16610LV 50th ANNIVERSARY PRESS PACK This is a very rare promo pack for the 50th anniversary 16610LV submariner which was released in 2003, it is in mint condition and totally complete. The promo pack has photos, cd, history and information on the last 50 years of the Rolex Submariner and definitely one for the collector.

The price is your best guess.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by watchpat

Hi everyone, I am looking to add a new piece to my collection and I am looking at the Rolex Kermit 16610lv. However, I am not sure if I can justify the difference in price between a regular one and a fat four.
Which one would you recommend and why?
Thanks in advance.

First its a flat four font and speaking for myself would never pay crazy money for one its just a insert nothing more.

[Andad]

[1665fan]

Flat 4 is worth the premium…. It’s the first and real anniversary sub….

[Loevhagen]

Flat 4 for a 16610LV is like "Stick Dial" is for a 16710 is like an APH-dial is for a 116520 -> Meaningless details hyped by market.

[faimag]

+1 for whichever font you find in the better condition!

[casadecamporolex]

As I’ve been collecting SS Rolexes beginning in 1992, my wife knew I’d appreciate receiving the first LV Submariner for my 50th birthday.
At that moment in time, there was minimal interest in this reference and I got their first. Lucked out it was a flat 4.
I’ve kept everything it came with including the Rolex press release that all ADs received.
Part of my 8 watch rotation, she wears it more often than me.

[Tools]

If you can actually find a decent early serial, flat 4 insert, oval O, etc., you would not be wearing it for fear of damaging any of those parts. They only cover the first year or so.

If you just want an LV, there are plenty of the later years around that you can wear without gasping every time you hit a door knob.

[Turbo Racer]

I think it would be nice to have a flat four but not for much of a premium. Just can’t see the value. Now if there were a special movement, that would be different

[The Kermit]

Originally Posted by casadecamporolex

As I’ve been collecting SS Rolexes beginning in 1992, my wife knew I’d appreciate receiving the first LV Submariner for my 50th birthday.
At that moment in time, there was minimal interest in this reference and I got their first. Lucked out it was a flat 4.
I’ve kept everything it came with including the Rolex press release that all ADs received.
Part of my 8 watch rotation, she wears it more often than me.

Great shot

[LFFL]

Here are both pictured for context. I wouldn't mind the sharper '4', esp if cost was significantly less

[Onequik135i]

I would just find a clean M serial full set w the engraved Rehaut or if you want to be more unique look out for the last year production of the LV Anniversary. I forget the letter of the serial off hand but those are rare if I’m not mistaken.

[Johny]

Originally Posted by Onequik135i

I would just find a clean M serial full set w the engraved Rehaut or if you want to be more unique look out for the last year production of the LV Anniversary. I forget the letter of the serial off hand but those are rare if I’m not mistaken.

There was V and then G and random.

[Norbert]

I get the flat 4 fascination. Its like saying that a Paul Newman Daytona isn't special since its merely a dial.

[RazorD]

I have a “regular” LV and love it. Do I wish it was a flat 4? Sure, but not at the current premium charged. If you plan to wear it, I say go with a later version and enjoy the heck out of it.

[Driver8]

Originally Posted by Tools

If you can actually find a decent early serial, flat 4 insert, oval O, etc., you would not be wearing it for fear of damaging any of those parts. They only cover the first year or so.

If you just want an LV, there are plenty of the later years around that you can wear without gasping every time you hit a door knob.

Spot on.

Unless someone just happened to get a Flat 4 at original purchase from an AD back in the 2000's, I don't remotely see the point of paying the premium nowadays unless you want a safe-queen.

[crazycarlitos]

Is flat4 worth the premium? Probably, since it marks the “true” anniversary edition.

But I never looked at my LV and thought I want/need a flat4.

Lack of flat4 doesn’t take away from the real beauty of the LV.

[dommasters]

The Flat four dial is different too. If money is no object then the flat 4 is the one to go for. It is the only true anniversary sub.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by dommasters

The Flat four dial is different too. If money is no object then the flat 4 is the one to go for. It is the only true anniversary sub.

Agreed.
All the talk of hype aside, it's a reality and we have to get used to it.
But as others have said it will be a drag to own and wear for fear of damaging the Bezel insert.

One could always do what I did with my "flat 4" insert and have the insert carefully swapped for an aftermarket insert to be safely kept in the box to preserve it. Swapping the Aluminium insert is very easily done.
A complete set with box, papers and anchor has become worth serious money whether one can appreciate it or not because it constitutes a genuine collectors piece, otherwise one could easily pick up a later version and enjoy it to the full and not be burdened with being a custodian.
Who knows, one may decide to collect all of the Kermit variants over the fullness of time as there's certainly plenty enough of them over the full production. That's a crucial element of what makes the Kermit so special as a reference and everything that's around the genuine "flat 4's"

I would probably still have mine if I had the complete press pack to go with it as it would well and truly have been the icing on the cake
I eventually sold mine because the lume was a little disappointing even if it was an improvement over the standard Sub.
Quite frankly, I would probably be seeking out a Cermit instead if I were looking at a watch in that price range

[rootbeer7]

You need a y serial as the true anniversary model. Then f with flat 4 and oval O. Truthfully unless totally obsessed, buy the best of any series you can find for your budget.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by watchpat

Hi everyone, I am looking to add a new piece to my collection and I am looking at the Rolex Kermit 16610lv. However, I am not sure if I can justify the difference in price between a regular one and a fat four.
Which one would you recommend and why?
Thanks in advance.

In that price range, have you considered going for a Cermit instead?

[Nashville Watch Guru]

Here is the best possible explanation of all of the differences. https://www.watchclub.com/curated-by...ry-sub-decoded

I have always believed that a Mark I: Serial Y94-F54 with Case: C1 Dial: D1 and Bezel: B1 or B2 is completely worth the money. While the subtleties are just that, subtle, they are the truest form of the 50th anniversary model. I also recommend having papers and known service history so you can guarantee the bezel is truly the one that came with the watch.

Good luck!

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by crazycarlitos

Is flat4 worth the premium? Probably, since it marks the “true” anniversary edition.

But I never looked at my LV and thought I want/need a flat4.

Lack of flat4 doesn’t take away from the real beauty of the LV.

True enough, but the beauty also fades over time along with the anodising of the Bezel insert when exposed to the elements.

[karleone]

Originally Posted by Loevhagen

Flat 4 for a 16610LV is like "Stick Dial" is for a 16710 is like an APH-dial is for a 116520 -> Meaningless details hyped by market.

Completely agree. Instead of this small detail I would try to source one full set and in the best condition. Unpolished and mint.

[crazycarlitos]

Originally Posted by Dirt

True enough, but the beauty also fades over time along with the anodising of the Bezel insert when exposed to the elements.

Huh?

My point was that flat4 doesn’t make it a LV. Lol

[Tools]

Originally Posted by crazycarlitos

Huh?

My point was that flat4 doesn’t make it a LV. Lol

Absolutely true.

At the time, a flat-four bezel insert was the standard insert and nothing special, even for the LN model. There were plenty of them around and many have very likely found their way into later Sub Dates and non LV versions. They are completely interchangeable.

[Greglaw]

Buy the flat four, put it on an alter, don’t wear it, worship it.

[donas]

I love my LV but wouldn't even consider paying the premium for the flat four. Why? For me, the cost vs return isn't anywhere close to each other. By return, I don't mean as an "investment", I mean as the personal satisfaction the flat four would bring me while wearing vs the regular boring four.