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Old 7 June 2023, 03:20 AM   #1
Tritiumhands
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1958 Tudor Price Oysterdate 34 7914 'Guilloche' Black Gilt Dial

Good day all,

I am certainly developing a keen interest in Rolex/Tudor vintage, and I have come across a beautiful 7914. The dial condition is excellent, the case shows wear commensurate with its age I have found a comparable example of the watch in question to compare to. The only difference being this example does not have cyclops whereas the watch I am looking to buy does. It comes on a leather band with what appears to be a reproduction vintage rolex buckle.

Asking price is $3.3K, and according to the seller it has just been freshly serviced. (I'll be taking this with a big fat grain of salt and will get my watchmaker to verify, but it appears to be running very well, so this could be true).

What are your thoughts on this watch? Are they particularly desirable/collectable? It appears to have all the features that might be desirable to some (they are to me) - the Rolex Brevet crown, gilt dial, roulette date wheel, open numerals, radium, light patina and large case design.

Is asking price fair for this piece?
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Old 8 June 2023, 11:07 AM   #2
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I have taken the watch to my watchmaker and it appears to have fresh oil in the movement, so it appears serviced.
However it was noted the rotor has been repaired with 4 new drilled and tapped holes with new screws. There's no knowing when this repair was done.

I've love to hear some thoughts about this piece. Price is $3-3.3k range.
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Old 9 June 2023, 02:34 AM   #3
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I would love the help if someone is able to chime in
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Old 9 June 2023, 09:59 AM   #4
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Lovely watch. I think these dials are more commonly known as either called waffle or honeycomb dials. This one looks in good nick no doubt.

The 390 movements can be a nuisance so it’s good that’s it’s serviced. The rotor re drilling probably to stabilize it and it looks like it was done with precision.

$3.3K gut feel seems a touch high. I would have guess Tudor dress watches to be more $2-3K max for that era but could be wrong. Have you searched eBay sold items for precedents?
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Old 9 June 2023, 10:16 AM   #5
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I'm guessing the "34" refers to case size. Looks nice, the only cosmetic condition issue I noticed is some lume missing from the hands.
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Old 9 June 2023, 11:58 AM   #6
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$3.3K gut feel seems a touch high.
I agree. I'd be looking at around $2,000 - 2,200 for a 34 mm Tudor dress watch. Possibly a few hundred more depending on how much I wanted it. I have three of them.

These are quite niche, so the seller will probably know it's difficult to shift (as opposed to something mainstream-popular like a Rolex 5513, for example). Make an offer and see what happens. That price definitely has a margin for negotiation built into it, especially considering that the hand lume is missing.

Good luck with it.
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Old 9 June 2023, 04:14 PM   #7
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Thank you all for your help. This is most helpful.

Would you happen to know, whether the black 'guilloche'/waffle/honeycomb variants are rarer than other dial types? Is there much known regarding these gilt dials? My preliminary research suggests that these dials are uncommon and rather desirable. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Alwayshere - yes I have also read that the calibre 390 can be rather troublesome at times, especially the auto winding mechanism. I also know parts can be difficult to find. But hopefully this will not be a worry until the watch requires service.
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Old 9 June 2023, 06:21 PM   #8
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Agree with everyone nice 58 swiss dial.

They are more often than not this type of waffle dial, so not particularly rare, but nice condition granted.

The great thing about these is that they are 20mm lug so a nice 5251h would look great on it and they wear like a Datejust.

Big paradox is that the dial is proudly marked 34, but they are in fact 34.75mm when new ;-)

Movt I've found to be fine, copious parts in UK, they do wind a bit gruffly quite often, even after service.

I've never paid more than £1450 for one, when on a leather, so price is v strong imho.

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Old 9 June 2023, 07:22 PM   #9
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Agree with everyone nice 58 swiss dial.

They are more often than not this type of waffle dial, so not particularly rare, but nice condition granted.

The great thing about these is that they are 20mm lug so a nice 5251h would look great on it and they wear like a Datejust.

Big paradox is that the dial is proudly marked 34, but they are in fact 34.75mm when new ;-)

Movt I've found to be fine, copious parts in UK, they do wind a bit gruffly quite often, even after service.

I've never paid more than £1450 for one, when on a leather, so price is v strong imho.

Rgds.
Absolute legend.

Thank you for this confirmation I needed to hear.

I'll be passing on this piece
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Old 10 June 2023, 01:33 AM   #10
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I'll be passing on this piece
Why? It's awesome. You want to buy it, the seller wants to sell it. All you have to do is find a number you're both happy with.
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Old 10 June 2023, 03:37 AM   #11
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Why? It's awesome. You want to buy it, the seller wants to sell it. All you have to do is find a number you're both happy with.
I agree there's no harm to make an offer at a reasonable price level. The seller may realize that his asking price is unrealistic.
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Old 10 June 2023, 05:14 AM   #12
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Apologies, I should have provided more context.

I offered $2750 USD and the seller declined. I thought this was a really good offer.

They are yet to provide me with a figure but the impression I am getting is they require at lest $3k-3.3k USD.

They are adamant that $3.3k USD is very good pricing for a black waffle dial, roulette date, gilt features, as well as a having its original brevet crown, and being serviced.

Does $3-3.3k USD seem ridiculous for this piece or is it still within the realm of sanity?
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Old 10 June 2023, 05:51 AM   #13
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I think the asking price would perhaps be in the right ballpark if it were a 34mm black-dial Rolex with a bracelet. But it's not. For a Tudor w/o a bracelet ... $3,300 USD is not realistic, IMO.

If you love the watch, go ahead and buy it, nobody will blame you. But if you ever decide to sell it, you will take a big loss.
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Old 10 June 2023, 07:47 AM   #14
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Apologies, I should have provided more context.

I offered $2750 USD and the seller declined. I thought this was a really good offer.

They are yet to provide me with a figure but the impression I am getting is they require at lest $3k-3.3k USD.

They are adamant that $3.3k USD is very good pricing for a black waffle dial, roulette date, gilt features, as well as a having its original brevet crown, and being serviced.

Does $3-3.3k USD seem ridiculous for this piece or is it still within the realm of sanity?

I think the issue is that these are indeed desirable and rare features on some watches, but not this one.

I like it. It’s a good looking watch and I think these 34mm dress Tudors are underrated. If Oliver and Clark are asking $75k for a gilt honeycomb datejust then why shouldn’t this watch be with $3k.

However, as others have advised you. There just isn’t a big collector’s market for these watches and you might struggle to find another buyer at that price.
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Old 10 June 2023, 09:01 AM   #15
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I think the issue is that these are indeed desirable and rare features on some watches, but not this one.
I think you've nailed down the issue here.

Is this actually quite a common watch? I was still under the (wrong?) impression/idea that tudor oysterdate 34's were common, but not ones with a gilt honeycomb [black] dial, and brevet crown. Is it actually common to see the combination of all of these features on this particular model of watch?

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It’s a good looking watch and I think these 34mm dress Tudors are underrated. If Oliver and Clark are asking $75k for a gilt honeycomb datejust then why shouldn’t this watch be with $3k.
I agree. I think do this watch is underrated.

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There just isn’t a big collector’s market for these watches and you might struggle to find another buyer at that price.
Again, completely agree. If I commit to it I should be under no illusions and know that 1) it was expensive & 2) I may struggle to find a buyer for this piece in future.

Vintage pricing is fickle isn't it. As someone new to vintage watch collecting, could you please help me understand where/how value is determined in these pieces/collectibles? This is an concept I'm constantly struggling to understand. I don't understand how these things are truly valued.

That $75k gilt honeycomb datejust you referred to, is it its features specifically that make it collectible or is that watch truly rare found with those features? As vintage datejusts are plentiful in their own right. And I've already found rarity doesn't always = desirable or collectability either.

My current thoughts are 'collectible' or 'desirable' pieces today were probably never hugely expensive or desirable to begin with? And over time these pieces were recognised as being desirable by the collecting community. Do you think there's possibility that there nay be upside potential in a piece like this, given:-

1) it wears well (large), more like a 36mm piece, and I think it retains relevance as a vintage watch in this modern world, with 20mm lugs;
2) has potentially 'desirable' features, seen in other currrently 'collectible' watches, such as a brevet crown, roulette date wheel, black waffle dial, and gilt features?
3) As a brand, Tudor has done well to establish itself as a brand in recent years?

Or,
Do you think in its 65 year life already it has already reached its potential and has been appropriately assessed by the market value wise, and the my 'undervalued' hypothesis is far fetched and flawed in principle?

I guess the only question I have left is: Is this actually a common watch with these features? Or is it a rarity within this model reference. As if it's not, then I agree I can't see the value in it.

I hope I'm making sense. I'm a young lad in my 20's, and I realise I have A LOT to learn and I'm always happy to be wrong/corrected/educated. I'm a student of these things and I'm really enjoying discussing this with you all.
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Old 10 June 2023, 09:23 AM   #16
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First of all, if you love the watch, just buy it. As I said before, nobody will blame you for following your heart. Show off some wrist shots and we will congratulate you.

However, it is clear that you are trying to talk yourself into the idea that the watch will become more valuable in the future to justify purchasing it at nearly 2x the true market value. Nobody can say, but I wouldn't count on it. Rare does not equate to valuable, it simply doesn't. It's not a 36mm watch, it's just not. Tudor is not Rolex, sorry but it isn't. And the days of all values just going up appear to be over.

Value is established by supply and demand, end of story. Rarity (supply) is only one part of the equation. You can't reason out the value, you can't change it by wishing. Over time, you will understand. $1500-$2k is actually already a lot of money for a 34mm vintage watch. You may like the fact that it takes a 20mm bracelet instead of a 19mm bracelet, but that just doubles the cost of the bracelet you'll need to buy.

Real experts are giving you the benefit of their experience, and I'd suggest you just believe them. You have your answers. Or maybe you are hoping for a new opinion that you would prefer to believe. If you think we are wrong, do some real market research and find auction sales of similar watches. Guesswork involving features and speculation about rarity is not research. I apologize if this sounds mean, but I'm just trying to be straight with you.
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Old 10 June 2023, 09:42 AM   #17
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First of all, if you love the watch, just buy it. As I said before, nobody will blame you for following your heart. Show off some wrist shots and we will congratulate you.

However, it is clear that you are trying to talk yourself into the idea that the watch will become more valuable in the future to justify purchasing it at nearly 2x the true market value. Nobody can say, but I wouldn't count on it. Rare does not equate to valuable, it simply doesn't. It's not a 36mm watch, it's just not. Tudor is not Rolex, sorry but it isn't. And the days of all values just going up appear to be over.

Value is established by supply and demand, end of story. Rarity (supply) is only one part of the equation. You can't reason out the value, you can't change it by wishing. Over time, you will understand. $1500-$2k is actually already a lot of money for a 34mm vintage watch. You may like the fact that it takes a 20mm bracelet instead of a 19mm bracelet, but that just doubles the cost of the bracelet you'll need to buy.

Real experts are giving you the benefit of their experience, and I'd suggest you just believe them. Or if you think we are wrong, do some real market research and find auction sales of similar watches. Guesswork involving features and speculation about rarity is not research.
Thanks Dan. I think you raise some very valid points.

You're correct - I do love the watch. But I really don't need to own the watch. I genuinely not trying to talk myself into it. I apologise if I've come across as not valuing expertise and knowledge, it's truly not the case, I'm asking all of these questions because I'm genuinely a naturally curious person and just want to understand this hobby more. I did not understand why this watch wasn't worth more (the $3k) but now I think I know.

I love the watch but not enough to purchase it for 2x.

What I do think you're correctly identifying though is my method is evidently wrong and needs far more refining. Yes, you're right, I have been largely speculating/guesswork based on the features of the watch rather than hard auction numbers and past sales to guide my valuation.

I'll do some research today, and come back with what I've found out in terms of past sales.

Again, truly very much appreciate everyone's shared wisdom, knowledge and input.
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Old 10 June 2023, 11:01 AM   #18
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This is what I have found so far:

The Bay:
- 7914, white honeycomb, T-Swiss-T, roulette, brevet crown, poor condition, 5/10 condition - $1k USD
- 7914, white honeycomb, Swiss made, roulette, gold plated, 8/10 - $1.4k USD
- 7919, green honeycomb, green repainted dial - $1.8kUSD
(none of these really compare)
Dealers:
- 7914, UK Vintage Watches, $6k USD (what on Earth?) - virtually identical example, but this pricing is insane
- 7939, Vision Vintage, not same reference but similar features - $3.5k USD
- 7914, The Sale Room, auction estimate $500GBP, $630USD (need to enter credit card details to access realised sale)

Not the best information available out there for past sales. But I think you guys are very much in the right ballpark of $2-2k or $2-2.5k at a stretch

Turns out the seller paid $2.55k for it. Happy to disclose as he's a friend.

Best I can do is offer money back essentially. Given dial condition and service I can justify this. Or, leave it. More on the side of leaving it. Especially given the seller isn't keen to move on price. I can't do much about that. I agree it's not a particularly desirable/popular/sought after reference.
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Old 10 June 2023, 11:13 AM   #19
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Black gilt with rivet bracelet for 1500 GBP.
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...0-c-67249afa6a

Black gilt with no bracelet for $1600.
https://watchcharts.com/listing/1162...matic-ref-7914
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Old 10 June 2023, 11:15 AM   #20
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Black gilt with rivet bracelet for 1500 GBP.
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...0-c-67249afa6a

Black gilt with no bracelet for $1600.
https://watchcharts.com/listing/1162...matic-ref-7914
Absolute legend, thank you again Dan.
Not waffle dials, but evidence of the price range I should be looking at
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Old 11 June 2023, 12:42 AM   #21
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Turns out the seller paid $2.55k for it.
He's already overpaid. He's never going to shift it for 3.3k with no bracelet.
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Old 11 June 2023, 08:18 AM   #22
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He's already overpaid. He's never going to shift it for 3.3k with no bracelet.
Thanks for this.

I thought my offer of $2.75k was really good. It's money back + some, only because I really like the watch, and it's been serviced.

I won't be offering a dime more, and at this point I'm more inclinced to leave it.

My friend was kind enough to let me wear the watch. But... I've also noticed a potential problem while wearing it over the last few days. The rotor is loud, and moving the watch vertically up and down produces a 'clunking' sound...
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Old 11 June 2023, 09:55 AM   #23
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I think you’re right in the range. I would also look at the applied Tudor big rose which is in a similar price range and very similar case. I found one on eBay heads ago and love it.
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Old 11 June 2023, 09:57 AM   #24
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Yeah, in the end I had to pass on it, as my friend wasn't able to do better on it.
I just don't like it enough for more than $2.75k, esp with the rotor modification (good luck finding another).
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Old 11 June 2023, 10:06 AM   #25
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I find it's very common that a casual seller may have a very different idea about value than I do. Often they have purchased a watch from a dealer and overpaid, and they're not willing to consider a fair offer (or a very strong offer, in your case). I just walk away and don't waste any time thinking about it. You just need to look for auctions or for people who are really interested in selling. TBH, prices in auctions for ordinary watches seem pretty soft, so it's really not the time to over-pay. Nobody knows what the future will bring, but there's no guarantee that prices will rise back to where they were in 2021.
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Old 11 June 2023, 11:08 AM   #26
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I find it's very common that a casual seller may have a very different idea about value than I do. Often they have purchased a watch from a dealer and overpaid, and they're not willing to consider a fair offer (or a very strong offer, in your case). I just walk away and don't waste any time thinking about it. You just need to look for auctions or for people who are really interested in selling. TBH, prices in auctions for ordinary watches seem pretty soft, so it's really not the time to over-pay. Nobody knows what the future will bring, but there's no guarantee that prices will rise back to where they were in 2021.
Well...

After I wrote my last update I messaged him today letting him know I wasn't keen on doing any more on the watch and that I'd just pass on it.

He's now decided to reconsider my very strong offer of $2.75k for a no nonsense sale...

With respect to him, I think his expectations were way too high and I think he's suddently realised that this isn't what he expected this watch to be, and adjusted his expectations. He would never have tried to rip me off, I know him well enough to know this isn't him.

I'm not THAT enthuthiastic about it now, even at $2.75k, and I'll need to get the rotor noise checked out first too. And I'd expect the glass to be cleaned and re-aligned as I noticed that's not right as well. I think I'm still inclined to leave it.

Can I take a moment to just say a huge thank you to all of you? I was also misninformed and didn't understand how to value this watch and if I hadn't sought out your expertise, I would have overpaid by a long shot.

All in all I've learned a lot from this experience.
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Old 11 June 2023, 08:21 PM   #27
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Well...

After I wrote my last update I messaged him today letting him know I wasn't keen on doing any more on the watch and that I'd just pass on it.

He's now decided to reconsider my very strong offer of $2.75k for a no nonsense sale...

With respect to him, I think his expectations were way too high and I think he's suddently realised that this isn't what he expected this watch to be, and adjusted his expectations. He would never have tried to rip me off, I know him well enough to know this isn't him.

I'm not THAT enthuthiastic about it now, even at $2.75k, and I'll need to get the rotor noise checked out first too. And I'd expect the glass to be cleaned and re-aligned as I noticed that's not right as well. I think I'm still inclined to leave it.

Can I take a moment to just say a huge thank you to all of you? I was also misninformed and didn't understand how to value this watch and if I hadn't sought out your expertise, I would have overpaid by a long shot.

All in all I've learned a lot from this experience.
Good. If he's a proper friend, I'd make some kind of excuse to not buy it. Sudden mortgage increase. Unexpected car repair. Cost of living. PC blew up and need to get a new one immediately.

If he feels you've underpaid and you feel you've overpaid, the friendship is tainted.
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Old 11 June 2023, 09:38 PM   #28
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Good. If he's a proper friend, I'd make some kind of excuse to not buy it. Sudden mortgage increase. Unexpected car repair. Cost of living. PC blew up and need to get a new one immediately.

If he feels you've underpaid and you feel you've overpaid, the friendship is tainted.
I couldn't agree more. But I'm confident in this case that he's come around now, he's genuninely happy to let go of it for $2.75k for a quick and easy sale.

I'm just not entirely sure if I still want it. A few other things need to be checked before I go ahead. I need to check the rotor noise isn't unusual for this calibre (it's louder than any other watch I've owned) on the wrist, and the cost of re-aligning and cleaning the glass. If both of those check out, then I'll offer him money back ($2.6k). If he wants more money he's not obligated to sell to me at all, he's well within his rights to try and get more for it.

At $2.6k I think I'm only just within the acceptable 'ballpark' range, albeit on the high side, but it is a nice variant with the features I like, the dial is in nice condition, and I do like the watch generally.
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Old 12 June 2023, 12:14 PM   #29
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UPDATE: I have, in the end decided to leave it.
It's just simply too expensive for what it is.

EDIT: Turned out it has an absolutely munted rotor bearing. My watchmaker advised me not to buy it. I'm really glad I did my due diligence on it and got it checked out.

A good lesson, without the pain.

Thank you all for your help.
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Old 13 June 2023, 08:42 PM   #30
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