The ZENITH thread

[unknown]

One of my favorite brands. And so undervalued on most forums.
I don't know why but Zenith seems to be forgotten when people talk about highend horlogerie. I know they are not Patek Philippe but they are for sure in the same league as IWC or JLC.

If you would have to make a top 10 list of the watchbrands with the most interesting history Zenith MUST be in that list. it must !

Here you have a bit of their history ( source; thewatchquote)

1865 • The clock maker
George Favre-Jacot started to work for himself in Locle.

1875 • George Favre-Jacot succeeded in his goal: to produce reasonably priced, precise fob watches.
His company employed one-third of the working population of Locle.

1896 • Manufacturer won Gold Medal at the Swiss National Exhibition.

1903 • First prize in the Neuchâtel Observatory competition for chronometers.

1911 • George Favre-Jacot retired and left the flourishing business to his descendants, under the name ZENITH.

1917 • Death of George Favre-Jacot.

1920 • First wristwatch models.

1954 • ZENITH won the Neuchâtel Observatory prize for wristwatch chronometers.

1960 • ZENITH took over MARTEL WATCH Co.
The UNIVERSELS caliber 749 and 285 became the ZENITH 146 family.

1969 • Birth of the EL PRIMERO movement, the first chronograph in the world equipped with a winding crown with central rotor.
ZENITH became a member of the MONDIA-ZENITH-MOVADO holding company.

1970 • The CRONOMETRO TIPO CP2 aviation chronographs with anti-magnetic case and 60-minute rotating lunette, manufactured for A. Cairelli in Rome.

1971 • The American ZENITH RADIO CORPORATION took a majority stake in the MONDIA-ZENITH-MOVADO group.

1978 • The group returned to the hands of Swiss investors, with DIXI, the financial and mechanical constructions group, as major shareholder.

1984 • MOVADO taken over by NORTH AMERICAN WATCH Co, and the name ZENITH appeared alone on the watch dials.

2000 • ZENITH taken over by L.V.M.H group.

2009 • (my personal note) Mr Dufour became CEO and from here on I see a BIG future for Zenith. Read about Mr Dufour and understand where he wants to put the brand.
I think he understands his job very well. Give him another 5 years and you'll see what I mean



A FEW MORE FACTS


By the time Jacot retired in 1929, Zenith had made watch history, winning grand prix medals for timekeeping precision at international expositions in Geneva, Paris, Barcelona,
and Neuchatel. In 1969, the company won renown for introducing the world's first automatic chronograph movement, the El Primero. Oscillating at 36,000 alternations/hour,
the El Primero was able to measure short time intervals to a tenth of a second, an unsurpassed world record. In 1995, Zenith launched a new generation of ultra-thin chronographs,
the Elite, recently voted best mechanical movement by the professional press.
Since its beginning, Zenith has been recognized with more than 1,565 first observatory prizes in chronometry, making it the Swiss brand most rewarded for precision.



Anyway, there are so many reasons to admire this brand





So, if you have one, please share it with us


This is my first one, the Chronomaster. I own this watch since more than 10 years

[Java]

I agree completely. They are one of my top 5 favorite makers.

I have these two





And this one I had before

[ghaddar]

Zenith is one of my favorites, I have two zenith watches striking ten and elite power reserve

[p_mcgee]

IMO their designs are getting better, but none of their models have yet reached the top of my "must have" list.

[capote]

Not my favorite brand, most models are pretty weak and all in all I wouldn't compare them to JLC in any aspect. What would be the reason to call Zenith high horology? The El Primero movement has a great reputation, but that is not enough IMO.

[Java]

Zeinth didn't only make the El primero
They have and still do make many other great calibres .
The elite is in itself a fabulous movement.
Their current Captain Winsor Annual calendar uses Oesclin's brilliant system. It is one of the best conceived annual calendars around. Without mentioning the Gyro toubillon in the Christoph Columbe
I can see that they wouldn't float everyone's boat. But as a manufacturer of great calibres, both historically and currently, evidence to put them up there with the best is pretty overwhelming . IMO of course :-)

[McLovin]

Zenith is great. I don't have one unfortunately, but there were some great shots here: http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...ghlight=zenith

[r4gs]

Elite Dual Time and El Primero 38mm

[unknown]

Originally Posted by capote

Not my favorite brand, most models are pretty weak and all in all I wouldn't compare them to JLC in any aspect. What would be the reason to call Zenith high horology? The El Primero movement has a great reputation, but that is not enough IMO.

The reason ?

Because ;


1/ Zenith created more than 500 calibers since the birth of Zenith. yes, more than five hundred. here you see a lot more info, not all of them but a lot.
http://zenhitsite.monsite-orange.fr/page7/index.html

2/ Brands like Parmigiani, Rolex, Panerai, Ebel, and several others used Zenith movements

3/ People only think of the El Primero and maybe the Elite but know that the El Primero has dozens of different calibers. I think it's a shame Zenith calls all of these EL Primero but out have El Primero's with flyback, splitseconds , date, calendar ( annual and perpetual), 2 or 3 subdials, big date, tourbillon, repeater, ... Most other brands would give every single movement another name. So tell me, does Zenith have 1 or 15 movements today ?

4/ Look at their history, the Calibre 135 is still today a VERY sought after movement / watch. Just lik the Longines 13 ZN of CH30. Or what about the legendary 5011K which was the most accurate movemetn EVER tested back in 1967 (in Neuchatel) , today it might still be the most accurate. FYI, you can find an extremely limited watch with this important movement , the 250 LE Montre D'aéronef type 20

5/ like mentionned before, they make all the complications, like split second, perpetual, tourbillon, repeater and their level of finishing is the same as JLC, so tell me why I coulld not compare these 2 ( I have both)


And there are many other reasons. The only thing where Zenith did not succeed untill now is good marketing. They have everything they need, inhouse legendary calibers & a great history but somehowe brands like iWC got more attention. And Mr Nataf wasn"t their best move too.

Like said before, since 2009 Mr Dufour ( CEO) is doing a great job. Give him some time and people will respect Zenith more and more.

[esm]

Originally Posted by capote

Not my favorite brand, most models are pretty weak and all in all I wouldn't compare them to JLC in any aspect. What would be the reason to call Zenith high horology? The El Primero movement has a great reputation, but that is not enough IMO.

I'm sure most of us can understand your "not my favourite brand" - it is simply your personal preference.

The rest of your post is just pure ignorance. IMHO.

[capote]

edit

[esm]

Originally Posted by capote

Enlighten me please.

Please consult your nearest google search engine.

[capote]

Originally Posted by unknown

The reason ?

Because ;


1/ Zenith created more than 500 calibers since the birth of Zenith. yes, more than five hundred. here you see a lot more info, not all of them but a lot.
http://zenhitsite.monsite-orange.fr/page7/index.html

2/ Brands like Parmigiani, Rolex, Panerai, Ebel, and several others used Zenith movements

3/ People only think of the El Primero and maybe the Elite but know that the El Primero has dozens of different calibers. I think it's a shame Zenith calls all of these EL Primero but out have El Primero's with flyback, splitseconds , date, calendar ( annual and perpetual), 2 or 3 subdials, big date, tourbillon, repeater, ... Most other brands would give every single movement another name. So tell me, does Zenith have 1 or 15 movements today ?

4/ Look at their history, the Calibre 135 is still today a VERY sought after movement / watch. Just lik the Longines 13 ZN of CH30. Or what about the legendary 5011K which was the most accurate movemetn EVER tested back in 1967 (in Neuchatel) , today it might still be the most accurate. FYI, you can find an extremely limited watch with this important movement , the 250 LE Montre D'aéronef type 20

5/ like mentionned before, they make all the complications, like split second, perpetual, tourbillon, repeater and their level of finishing is the same as JLC, so tell me why I coulld not compare these 2 ( I have both)


And there are many other reasons. The only thing where Zenith did not succeed untill now is good marketing. They have everything they need, inhouse legendary calibers & a great history but somehowe brands like iWC got more attention. And Mr Nataf wasn"t their best move too.

Like said before, since 2009 Mr Dufour ( CEO) is doing a great job. Give him some time and people will respect Zenith more and more.

Thanks for the clarification, I had not looked into the history of the brand. However one thing they do lack is strong models (as far as I know). The Defy with the jigsaw design is outrageous for example, and most other models I've seen are either retro or rather bland. If you are to succeed you need both great movements and great models IMO. But the general lack of interest will work in the Zenith fans favor, buying preowned.

[Java]

Originally Posted by unknown

The reason ?

Because ;


1/ Zenith created more than 500 calibers since the birth of Zenith. yes, more than five hundred. here you see a lot more info, not all of them but a lot.
http://zenhitsite.monsite-orange.fr/page7/index.html

2/ Brands like Parmigiani, Rolex, Panerai, Ebel, and several others used Zenith movements

3/ People only think of the El Primero and maybe the Elite but know that the El Primero has dozens of different calibers. I think it's a shame Zenith calls all of these EL Primero but out have El Primero's with flyback, splitseconds , date, calendar ( annual and perpetual), 2 or 3 subdials, big date, tourbillon, repeater, ... Most other brands would give every single movement another name. So tell me, does Zenith have 1 or 15 movements today ?

4/ Look at their history, the Calibre 135 is still today a VERY sought after movement / watch. Just lik the Longines 13 ZN of CH30. Or what about the legendary 5011K which was the most accurate movemetn EVER tested back in 1967 (in Neuchatel) , today it might still be the most accurate. FYI, you can find an extremely limited watch with this important movement , the 250 LE Montre D'aéronef type 20

5/ like mentionned before, they make all the complications, like split second, perpetual, tourbillon, repeater and their level of finishing is the same as JLC, so tell me why I coulld not compare these 2 ( I have both)


And there are many other reasons. The only thing where Zenith did not succeed untill now is good marketing. They have everything they need, inhouse legendary calibers & a great history but somehowe brands like iWC got more attention. And Mr Nataf wasn"t their best move too.

Like said before, since 2009 Mr Dufour ( CEO) is doing a great job. Give him some time and people will respect Zenith more and more.

I completely agree. Nataf made a pigs ear of running Zenith, he almost ruined it and committed the crime of trying to turn it into a fashion brand.

With Dufour at the helm and with a few more years of work, Zenith have a chance to ratify their deserved position in horology.

Dufour is the person Zenith have needed for a long time.

[huntershooter]

[unknown]

Originally Posted by capote

Not my favorite brand, most models are pretty weak .

Well I agree because we all have a different taste so some brands do speak to you, others don't but I can't agree they're all 'pretty weak'

I just googled a few different watches. You can see quite a few posted by other members but I just want to add these to show some different styles.
And I almost can't believe you would not like any of these 13 examples

[capote]

Originally Posted by unknown

Well I agree because we all have a different taste so some brands do speak to you, others don't but I can't agree they're all 'pretty weak'

I just googled a few different watches. You can see quite a few posted by other members but I just want to add these to show some different styles.
And I almost can't believe you would not like any of these 13 examples

I agree, there are some nice there, although my favorites are the vintage 60's chronos with two and three registers, cal 146 I believe. A while back I was actually thinking about pulling the trigger on one of those

[witch watch]

Originally Posted by Java

I completely agree. Nataf made a pigs ear of running Zenith, he almost ruined it and committed the crime of trying to turn it into a fashion brand.

With Dufour at the helm and with a few more years of work, Zenith have a chance to ratify their deserved position in horology.

Dufour is the person Zenith have needed for a long time.

Very true. Zenith will return bigger and better and with alot more respect and admiration for it but in a slow burning way. One thing for sure is don't knock them as they do have a rich history, great in house movements and relative low output.

[kkwn98]

Good brand; make nice watches. The Thierry Nataf era watches, were, however, um, not very good...

[ducatidoc]

Originally Posted by kkwn98

Good brand; make nice watches. The Thierry Nataf era watches, were, however, um, not very good...

A bit overly dismissive.

Nataf era did in fact shepherd the brand back to international prominence. Some of his designs were admittedly over the top while others were very popular. The biggest problem was that he tried to expand the brand too much for what level of support LVMH was willing to provide, but he at least made a stab at developing the US market. Dufour's first major move was to cut back production, reduce the number of SKUs from nearly 900 down to a more readily manageable 120 or so, and reduce the number of storefronts here in the US from 90+ down to around 50 or so. The result is much less in terms of options, and it's almost impossible to order the exact piece you want in the US. Dufour focuses on the Asian market first and foremost. Zenith continues to have major supply chain issues elsewhere.

The focus by Dufour on the 42mm size cases as opposed to the 44-46mm cases favored by Nataf is one of personal preference, IMO. You can find enthusiastic proponents for each.

[kkwn98]

Originally Posted by ducatidoc

A bit overly dismissive.

The focus by Dufour on the 42mm size cases as opposed to the 44-46mm cases favored by Nataf is one of personal preference, IMO. You can find enthusiastic proponents for each.

Perhaps; but it's my opinion and my opinion is what counts for me. Really weird designs and some of those enormous chronos were just comical - small(ish) El Primero movement, resulting in ridiculously close together chrono sub-dials.

Also, interesting you say I'm overly dismissive, in light of some slightly more direct comments, to wit:

Originally Posted by Java

I completely agree. Nataf made a pigs ear of running Zenith, he almost ruined it and committed the crime of trying to turn it into a fashion brand.
With Dufour at the helm and with a few more years of work, Zenith have a chance to ratify their deserved position in horology.

Dufour is the person Zenith have needed for a long time.

[Java]

Originally Posted by kkwn98

Perhaps; but it's my opinion and my opinion is what counts for me. Really weird designs and some of those enormous chronos were just comical - small(ish) El Primero movement, resulting in ridiculously close together chrono sub-dials.

Also, interesting you say I'm overly dismissive, in light of some slightly more direct comments, to wit:

Of course. What counts more than anything is an individuals personal opinion about the watches he likes, respects and ultimately would want to wear.
It must be that way. Watches really don't do anything for us (I frequently get pilloried for saying this) that our iphones don't already do better. We don't need them. So it is about wanting them and that is very personal.
I am a huge fan of Zenith. For their history, their massive horological achievements and some of the beautiful and magnificently well made watches they create, at prices that are extremely reasonable when compared to their competition.
That said, I am the first to admit that there was a period of time, under Nataf, when they produced some really awful watches, albeit, well made awful watches. :-)

[Java]

Originally Posted by ducatidoc

A bit overly dismissive.

Nataf era did in fact shepherd the brand back to international prominence. Some of his designs were admittedly over the top while others were very popular. The biggest problem was that he tried to expand the brand too much for what level of support LVMH was willing to provide, but he at least made a stab at developing the US market. Dufour's first major move was to cut back production, reduce the number of SKUs from nearly 900 down to a more readily manageable 120 or so, and reduce the number of storefronts here in the US from 90+ down to around 50 or so. The result is much less in terms of options, and it's almost impossible to order the exact piece you want in the US. Dufour focuses on the Asian market first and foremost. Zenith continues to have major supply chain issues elsewhere.

The focus by Dufour on the 42mm size cases as opposed to the 44-46mm cases favored by Nataf is one of personal preference, IMO. You can find enthusiastic proponents for each.

All of that is true. But ultimately Nataf failed. He failed because he made the simple mistake of chucking the baby down the drain with the bath water.
Zenith's strength is their integrity and history as a maker of great watches.
Long term in Asia or elsewhere, the only possibility of long term survival and growth lies with maintaining the public's perception of who and what they really are.

[unknown]

Originally Posted by ducatidoc

A bit overly dismissive.

The result is much less in terms of options, and it's almost impossible to order the exact piece you want in the US. Dufour focuses on the Asian market first and foremost. Zenith continues to have major supply chain issues elsewhere.

Can't agree here ...
I'm not aware of the US market but I can tell you Europe was always a very good market for Zenith ....... and still is ( in the past the French ans Italian army used them)
But als the European customers loved Zenith.
I have a feeling it did not get the respect it deserves in the US ( not yet ?)
The dark period in the history was when it belonged to tha American group .. they made crap and only quartz, they only made bad decissions. ( We all know the Charles Vermot story)

It takes time to conquer the US market but they will succeed
In Europe they are stong , I think it's their most important market..... not Asia and I'm sure Mr Dufour will respect this.

[Maxtor]

Beautiful pictures. I have the El Primero HW and love it.

[timlaw]

here's a picture of my rainbow flyback - one of the most favoured watches in my collection.

[93 Turbo]

Great post and pictures, along with some interesting discussions. I don't have a Zenith in my collection as yet, this is something I can look forward to in the future. I appreciate the efforts of the OP, and those who have contributed. Cheers

[ducatidoc]

Originally Posted by unknown

Can't agree here ...
I'm not aware of the US market but I can tell you Europe was always a very good market for Zenith ....... and still is ( in the past the French ans Italian army used them)
But als the European customers loved Zenith.
I have a feeling it did not get the respect it deserves in the US ( not yet ?)
The dark period in the history was when it belonged to tha American group .. they made crap and only quartz, they only made bad decissions. ( We all know the Charles Vermot story)

It takes time to conquer the US market but they will succeed
In Europe they are stong , I think it's their most important market..... not Asia and I'm sure Mr Dufour will respect this.

You're correct about Europe. Dufour ranked Asia, specifically Hong Kong as the top market, and Europe, including Russia as second. I'm sure you read the same interview article as I did. The US is far enough down the list as to be nearly an afterthought. Indeed, if it had not been for the flood of Nataf models hitting the grey market upon his departure, I would probably never have got my first three Zeniths. My next three were 2009 and 2010 models. Now, many of the popular Dufour models like the Stratos in Alchron/RG, are nearly impossible to get in the US from an AD if you attempt to place an order.

[unknown]

Originally Posted by ducatidoc

I'm sure you read the same interview article as I did. .

not sure, can you post a link in case I missed this interview ?

Originally Posted by ducatidoc

Now, many of the popular Dufour models like the Stratos in Alchron/RG, are nearly impossible to get in the US from an AD if you attempt to place an order.

I hope for you guys that will change because ! Untill it doesn't .. order them in Europe. I can help you with a very good dealer who gets all the pieces he asks for. And today the Euro is not that strong so it might be a very good solution.
Also, European prices are ALWAYS all taxes included ( about 20%) so export to the Us is the listprice - 20% !

[ducatidoc]

Originally Posted by unknown

not sure, can you post a link in case I missed this interview ?

Scroll down to the question that's two above the picture of the black Stratos Alchron, near the bottom.