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Old 11 April 2020, 08:36 PM   #61
ts3
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They are subjective, not facts. Movement is finished up to par with it's price point. Dial is not balance? Give me a break, it arguably has the best balanced dial for a dress watch (yes again subjective). Something being more updated doesn't make it better, that's why there is a charm to vintage pieces, some which come with a very high price tag.

The sub seconds was not moved but the dial was enlarged so it the sub second will stay higher than previous versions. They kept the movement mostly the same and just bumped up the case (and therefore dial) to be more in line with current trends as most men nowadays would not be comfortable with a 31mm watch. The current movement (215 ps) and finishing is almost identical to the same one I opened up from the 50s but with some more modern techniques. The solid back is in line with how it was always traditionally made more gold as a bonus and a nice surface to engrave. Not everyone is a flipper, this is a piece that can be passed down and is often gifted so some wont give a crap about resale.

There is something inherently satisfying to see something that has changed very little and continues to be timeless. It was one of the first Pateks to have an in-house caliber instead of relying on blanks supplied from LeCoultre and the first to be given a reference number (96). Born in the depression era, Stern had taken over and this was his opening act. It's the ultimate understated, conservative, under the radar watch loaded with Patek history. The watch sticks to it's very traditional roots which hasn't deviated much from its birth, something very rare nowadays in horology. This is one of those watches that has pure Patek DNA, the fact that they changed it very little since 1932 is testament to some of the Patek traditions.
There is the history but in the end the 96 and the 5196 are completely different watches in terms of how they wear as a result of the huge size difference alone.

I actually like the dial of the 5196, I don't mind the position of the small seconds, and I like a solid case back, but despite the solid case back I'd feel a little cheated by the tiny movement under the hood of this large case, no matter the history and it being a proven work horse.

Most importantly, I was not impressed in the metal. They look good on pics but neither the 5196G nor the R looked great on my wrist. For my taste and my 6 5/8" wrists they wear incredibly large for a basic dress watch. Much larger than the nominal 37mm would suggest, which I attribute to the combination of flatness, narrow bezel / large dial, light dial color, and very long lugs.

I imagine the 5196P wears quite differently given the special dial but went 3998P back in the day which also wears larger than 34mm would suggest.
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Old 11 April 2020, 11:10 PM   #62
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There is the history but in the end the 96 and the 5196 are completely different watches in terms of how they wear as a result of the huge size difference alone.

I actually like the dial of the 5196, I don't mind the position of the small seconds, and I like a solid case back, but despite the solid case back I'd feel a little cheated by the tiny movement under the hood of this large case, no matter the history and it being a proven work horse.

Most importantly, I was not impressed in the metal. They look good on pics but neither the 5196G nor the R looked great on my wrist. For my taste and my 6 5/8" wrists they wear incredibly large for a basic dress watch. Much larger than the nominal 37mm would suggest, which I attribute to the combination of flatness, narrow bezel / large dial, light dial color, and very long lugs.

I imagine the 5196P wears quite differently given the special dial but went 3998P back in the day which also wears larger than 34mm would suggest.
Yes, they do wear large for the diameter, lug to lug height measurement is quite big.
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Old 12 April 2020, 04:35 AM   #63
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Not sizing up a movement is a clear indication of cutting costs. This is not subjective; it is fact.
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Old 12 April 2020, 04:57 AM   #64
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Not sizing up a movement is a clear indication of cutting costs. This is not subjective; it is fact.
Agreed. In addition, the amount of hand finishing is also not subjective it's a continuum that is identified with a just a small amount of effort.
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Old 12 April 2020, 09:36 AM   #65
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I’m a big fan and it’s been eating away at me for years, the watch is perfect, size, shape, quality and fit, manual wind gives you the control over when you wear the watch, I bought one 22 December last year and out of all the watches I own and have owned this one has to be the best.




Very lovely watch, looks great (and comfortable) on the wrist and I'm sure you an wear it casually as well.
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Old 12 April 2020, 02:51 PM   #66
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I like the impact of the small movement in the 5196P. I don't really care for "cut" numerals, and in then 5196P, because the movement is small, all Breguet numerals can be fully shown.
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Old 12 April 2020, 02:54 PM   #67
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Funny how much passion this thread has created.

If you like the Saxonia buy it, if you like the 5196 buy it.

To each their own, I for one have owned the Saxonia and a Lange 1 Darth, I bough them because of the allure of the movement finishing and all the rest... but guess what? They bored me to death when I wore them, as great and perfect as they were.

The 5196 speaks to me in a way the others didn't, it may be the complete opposite for you, I think we can all agree to disagree.

It's like the Ferrari vs Porsche argument, both great. But it's a pesonal thing, Ferrari gets my heart pumping (much more vintage ones), Porsche does nothing to me.

My Dad had one of each so I know what I'm talking about, the Ferrari was always in the shop but made us all smile when we drove it, the Porsche we drove because the Ferrari was in the shop.
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Old 12 April 2020, 10:47 PM   #68
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Funny how much passion this thread has created.

If you like the Saxonia buy it, if you like the 5196 buy it.

To each their own, I for one have owned the Saxonia and a Lange 1 Darth, I bough them because of the allure of the movement finishing and all the rest... but guess what? They bored me to death when I wore them, as great and perfect as they were.

The 5196 speaks to me in a way the others didn't, it may be the complete opposite for you, I think we can all agree to disagree.

It's like the Ferrari vs Porsche argument, both great. But it's a pesonal thing, Ferrari gets my heart pumping (much more vintage ones), Porsche does nothing to me.

My Dad had one of each so I know what I'm talking about, the Ferrari was always in the shop but made us all smile when we drove it, the Porsche we drove because the Ferrari was in the shop.
You are conflating messages from this thread. I don't believe anyone here has stated the 5196 cannot illicit passion or make you tingle in certain places. That's your prerogative.

Patek cut corners on this watch. It wasn't because they had nothing to improve upon. It wasn't because they felt nostalgic by keeping a movement from a 33mm watch. It was because they wanted to save money. Objectively, there are better watches for the money. Better made. Better finished. Better value.

You see, my father owned a basic, affordable Jaguar X Type. That car had the underpinnings of a Ford Mondeo and was constantly in the shop. The second hand Honda Civic however, we rode that when the Jag was in the shop. To people who don't know anything, the Jaguar was the more exotic and prestigious of the two. In reality, it was poorly made, had outdated technology and the Honda ran circles around it.
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Old 13 April 2020, 01:55 AM   #69
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My first and only Patek and still enjoy gazing at it every time I put it on. I for one could care less about the moment size.



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Old 13 April 2020, 02:47 AM   #70
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My first and only Patek and still enjoy gazing at it every time I put it on. I for one could care less about the moment size.



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Love that strap combo. Enjoy!
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Old 13 April 2020, 03:11 AM   #71
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^ Agreed, that strap is excellent!
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Old 13 April 2020, 04:04 AM   #72
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Quality of finishing is not subjective.

Movement
- blued screws
- good chatons for jewels
- hand engraved balance cock (even on the entry level Saxonia Thin)
- bevelling

Dial
- polishing and bevelling on hour markers
- likewise on hands

The Patek has a MSRP of $22,700. The ALS Saxonia is ~$17,000. And the latter can be had with a decent discount from ADs.

Are you suggesting that Patek chose a solid case-back in this model to maintain relevance with the ref. 96? I believe this is one of the few models in the current catalogue that do not have a sapphire back.

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Different opinions obviously, but the Saxonia is boring! I owned it and I rarely wore it, as perfect as ALS are, they lack a bit of soul (I also owned a Lange 1 Darth).

The 5196 has charm, beyond anything the Saxonia ever will, I personally don't care about movement size or closed caseback, as much as I enjoy looking at movements and the great Lange finish and movement to case ratio, wearing the watch and looking at the face of it is much more important to me.

Was PP cutting corners? Is the ALS a better product or better priced? Probably

But for some people buying a PP those questions are kind of meaningless, you want what you want and value is subjective.

And don't get me started on ALS reale value if you are a flipper like me.... horrible horrible experiences, with PP never an issue.
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Old 14 April 2020, 01:54 AM   #73
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5096 (33mm) v 5196 (37mm). Both references use the same 215PS movement.



When you place a caliber originally designed for a 33mm case into a 37mm, you will alter the balance and leave more space on the dial.

My point is that they ought to keep the same design but match it in a large movement better suited to the larger case.

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My thoughts on all this are very straightforward:

1 – the movement is too small for the case;
2 – I would prefer an open case back if the movement had better proportions, but am totally ok with the watch having a solid case back given the reality;
3 – The 5196 it is a very nice watch in all metals regardless of its movement size;
4 – the dial is extremely well-balance. IMHO, the comparison above leads to the exact opposite conclusion which the poster had: despite the difference in the case/movement ratio, Patek did an outstanding job on the dial to preserve its balance.
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Old 31 January 2022, 07:24 AM   #74
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On the 5196, the subsidiary seconds dial is too close to the centre (too large a gap to the 6 hour marker) making the dial unbalanced.

ALS updates their movements regularly to incorporate improvements and they’re sized appropriately for the cases. Obviously movement architecture varies (chronograph v time-only) but all finishing is performed to the same standard (which imo is higher than Patek’s).


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Beauty is subjective, and I feel exactly the other way.

I never liked small seconds in watches as the subdial always "eats" into the markings on 6 o'clock. Worst case is with arabic numerals where only the bottom part of the 6 is what is left..

I think that the now discontinued Calatrava's solved this issue brilliantly, especially with the platinum version.
In my view the discontinued 5196 range is much more in balance than the new replacement 6119 range. This has a lower small seconds as many seem to crave, but it eats away the 6 o'clock mark.
Yes it means the second hand is a little bigger. but who cares. It is meant to be a small second...
If you want a big second hand the sweeping seconds is the way to go.

So in my humble opinion it was brilliant to have a higher small seconds, and if that means a smaller movement so what?

My meister Singer Petrograph also has a small movement relative to it's size.
It does have a crystal back, with a smaler crystal matching the movement. I have no problems with that...
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Old 31 January 2022, 09:22 AM   #75
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It's a great watch, and always has been. I don't think the case back detracts from the excellent overall package. It isn't a perfect reference, but it is excellent.
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Old 31 January 2022, 10:37 PM   #76
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Having a small movement with a larger case can somehow be beneficial as the sub-dial is now higher and makes this non-enamel dial a bit less “plain”, busier and imo even more balanced and easy to the eyes. And tbh, I would pick this over any simple dress by Lange; they are kind of dull in terms of dial design. 5196 is a strange watch in some senses; hard to explain its charm and class if you haven’t put it on your wrist before. The ultimate dress watch to me.
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Old 1 February 2022, 12:01 PM   #77
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Having a small movement with a larger case can somehow be beneficial as the sub-dial is now higher and makes this non-enamel dial a bit less “plain”, busier and imo even more balanced and easy to the eyes. And tbh, I would pick this over any simple dress by Lange; they are kind of dull in terms of dial design. 5196 is a strange watch in some senses; hard to explain its charm and class if you haven’t put it on your wrist before. The ultimate dress watch to me.
+1. I purchased from Patek a deployment for my 5196R a few years ago. Makes it even more special to me. I also own the Vacheron Tradionallle and I find the 5196 dressier. It doesn't bother me about the caseback, movement, etc. I do not attend social events and take off my watch to show off transparent caseback of any watch I own. That's just between watch nerds (like myself), in other settings, or at home. IMO.
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Old 29 May 2023, 02:56 AM   #78
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I have read through lots of posts like this and here are my two cents, for that they are worth…..

It’s a reference that has inspired passionate and sometimes heated debate for good reason. It was meant to be a modern “wearable” tribute to the original reference that helped shape the company.

This is a reference that means a great deal to the company and no, I do not believe that Patek had a bunch of 215 PS movements lying around and needed to find something to do with them, as some have eluded. Nor do I think that the decision to have a solid case back is evidence that they wanted to hide it. I believe a tremendous amount of thought went into their decision to use this caliber. And the case back itself, didn’t need any thought at all. For this it was always going to be solid. They chose a movement rich in history, something you have to be a bit of a romantic to fully appreciate.

This reference is pure class. An exhibition case back here would have been anything but. This reference was not meant to be state of the art or groundbreaking.

To Patek Philippe the Ref. 5196 was sentimental and it was a triumph.

The folks who have said that the movement should fill the case are correct in principal but totally missed the point in this case. No pun intended.

This reference is incredibly important to the brand and will continue to be debated for years and years to come.
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Old 29 May 2023, 06:18 AM   #79
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To me the big evolution on the 3796 to 5096 to 5196 is the sub seconds dial moving further up and up with each increase in case size. The sub dial looks best when it sits where it is on the 3796. It looks awkward and out of place on the 5196. The movement size is not a big issue to me given the solid case back on the 5196 which makes the watch more elegant. But the movement should have been enlarged to fit the 37mm case, if only to maintain the correct traditional position of the sub dial.
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Old 29 May 2023, 06:31 AM   #80
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Sometimes all the imperfections of a reference like this makes it an all time classic. Time will tell
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Old 30 May 2023, 09:35 AM   #81
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I think the proportions of the 5196 are excellent. It’s a timeless versatile ref. that looks good in almost any situation. As was stated, the 214ps is a fine choice with a long history. I like the feel of winding it better than the 6119s. If you don’t like 5196 then I agree that you’re missing the point of the watch.
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