Patek changes Archive Extract policy

[enjoythemusic]

Did anyone find out for $500 if you MUST send the watch in so PP can truly authenticate it, as i've heard fakes may be using valid SN#.

[Dan Pierce]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

I just got an $11k quote to repair clean my pocket watch. Tad excessive for a watch worth $5k




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That's a tough position to be in, damned if you do, damned if you don't. I decided to trade my 1963 5406J for a 2001 16710 GMT w/ my watchmaker. He says [& I agree] that I make out much better on that deal.
dP

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

That's a tough position to be in, damned if you do, damned if you don't. I decided to trade my 1963 5406J for a 2001 16710 GMT w/ my watchmaker. He says [& I agree] that I make out much better on that deal.
dP

That’s awesome Dan. Can you pm your watchmaker name / contact? I gotta figure Out something to do with his pocket watch, and it’s certainly not going to be having Patek drop $11,000 into it


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[Billfav]

Order placed From 2-3 weeks ago.

[Dan Pierce]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

That’s awesome Dan. Can you pm your watchmaker name / contact? I gotta figure Out something to do with his pocket watch, and it’s certainly not going to be having Patek drop $11,000 into it


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Check your inbox.
dP

[Berettameier]

John Reardon:

https://collectability.com/learn/pat...ld-after-1989/

[enjoythemusic]

That's smart, just send it in for a service estimate instead of archives paper.

[azizu]

Originally Posted by alpharulez

Thanks for the clarification
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follow up on the point raised before, an article by JOHN REARDON about the move hinting the same conclusion

https://collectability.com/learn/pat...ld-after-1989/

thanks @Berettameier for sharing

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

Check your inbox.
dP

Got it and will reach out. Thku!


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[Berettameier]

Originally Posted by azizu

thanks @Berettameier for sharing

You are very welcome.

Here are my thoughts about the new extracts policy.

I absolutely understand Patek wants to have more watches for official and certified service. I support the idea, since it will keep more Pateks in great condition. However, to reach that goal, they could do much better than stopping to issue extracts. Here are my ideas for improvement:
- Issue an extract together with watch service only.
- Take notes of official watch services in the extract. That would show in details the complete individual watch history including service history. 😃
- Offer any other solutions to officially verify the authenticity of any Patek Philippe watch.

If Patek does not improve the latest extract policy, many collectors will feel disappointed or even betrayed. They purchased valuable Pateks assuming they can get an extract any time. This is what Patek promised since 1989. And now Patek breaks their own promise. At least, I do not like this. 😢

[PartagasIV]

Interesting info. John, just sent you a PM about getting my beat-up 3445 looked at...

[Calatrava r]

This change makes great sense to me. The purpose of an extract is to give background on older watches as to manufacture date and date of sale which vary widely on some older vintage pieces. It was never to enhance re-sale value on newer pieces. Also, recent production runs of references are well known as is the reference number, so identifying a newer model is very easy, unlike some odd shaped watch from 70 or more years ago.

[bonsai-man]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

This change makes great sense to me. The purpose of an extract is to give background on older watches as to manufacture date and date of sale which vary widely on some older vintage pieces. It was never to enhance re-sale value on newer pieces. Also, recent production runs of references are well known as is the reference number, so identifying a newer model is very easy, unlike some odd shaped watch from 70 or more years ago.

Totally agree, well said

[jon_jon]

Agree 100% that Extract was never meant to be a piece of paper to increase watch re-sale value if the original Certificate was lost or discarded. AFAIK Rolex doesn't have an Extract ordering service and they seem to do well with resale of recent as well and vintage watches.

I have purchased all my Patek watches with an original Certificate, except for one older watch that came with an Extract. If you are a genuine collector and don't flip watches or buy them as profit generation, I don't see how the new policy is a negative change, except for the slightly higher price point.

[Berettameier]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

..., so identifying a newer model is very easy, unlike some odd shaped watch from 70 or more years ago.

How do you identify if the watch comes in original specification?
- Blue dial in a former white dial 5711/1A?
- 5110 or 5130 limited editions with extraordinary city names?
- 5167 Singapore made from a standard 5167?

There is potential for massive fraud.

[321Forever]

Originally Posted by Berettameier

How do you identify if the watch comes in original specification?
- Blue dial in a former white dial 5711/1A?
- 5110 or 5130 limited editions with extraordinary city names?
- 5167 Singapore made from a standard 5167?

There is potential for massive fraud.

Indeed. And PP does not care about most of us. And nor should they.

[azizu]

Originally Posted by Berettameier

- Issue an extract together with watch service only.

i like that option you mentioned, also increasing the eligiability to acquire extract from 5 years old watches to 20 years old watches (rather than watches older than 1989) would make sense for both patek and the collecting community

[scurfa]

Revolution magazine have info of a u turn on this decision, more news to follow.


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[iLLGT2]

Just seeing this now after researching it,,

Went to order archives for my platinum 5960

Got to order page it literally says 150 up to accept and agree to debit the card and continue

My Amex then charged over 500 I was like hm wtf

Called stern agency, they said strange we changed cost I said well I didn’t see that and didn’t say it says 150, she asked for screenshot to email

Just got email back from Patek Switzerland that there was a mistake with site pricing and they are sending me the archives complimentary with refund

[David001]

I'm not really a vintage watch collector and of the watches I have bought over the last few decades I have never really been too bothered about all the paperwork being present, I just like the watches. My main concern if I don't buy from the boutique is whether a used watch is genuine/authentic and/or stolen.

A piece of paper from PP giving me the original sale date based on information that I provide might indicate if it's on their stolen register, but it won't help with authenticity, unless it is physically checked.

I have only ever bought three watches from a grey source and on each occasion I immediately sent them for service. This will guarantee two things, that it is genuine and working as it should and it is not registered as stolen.
That's really all I care about.

I would much prefer that the manufacturer offer an authenticity service, charge appropriately and issue a certificate saying that it was checked by PP (or Rolex, etc) on that date and is certified as being genuine and not stolen.
Until then I'll just swallow the cost of a service because although it doesn't say so, that's what the service report is basically saying.

[bonsai-man]

Originally Posted by David001

I'm not really a vintage watch collector and of the watches I have bought over the last few decades I have never really been too bothered about all the paperwork being present, I just like the watches. My main concern if I don't buy from the boutique is whether a used watch is genuine/authentic and/or stolen.

A piece of paper from PP giving me the original sale date based on information that I provide might indicate if it's on their stolen register, but it won't help with authenticity, unless it is physically checked.

I have only ever bought three watches from a grey source and on each occasion I immediately sent them for service. This will guarantee two things, that it is genuine and working as it should and it is not registered as stolen.
That's really all I care about.

I would much prefer that the manufacturer offer an authenticity service, charge appropriately and issue a certificate saying that it was checked by PP (or Rolex, etc) on that date and is certified as being genuine and not stolen.
Until then I'll just swallow the cost of a service because although it doesn't say so, that's what the service report is basically saying.

A service, is simply a maintenance intervention. Service papers are just a receipt of the intervention. It does not prove ownership, a watch is not stolen or that the person sending it in is the legal owner.

I see this “sure method of authentication” hundreds of times on the Rolex and Patek sub forum. Saying or reading something hundreds of times doesn’t make it true, if the watch is suspect walk away.

[Bladeshot]

Originally Posted by iLLGT2

Just seeing this now after researching it,,

Went to order archives for my platinum 5960

Got to order page it literally says 150 up to accept and agree to debit the card and continue

My Amex then charged over 500 I was like hm wtf

Called stern agency, they said strange we changed cost I said well I didn’t see that and didn’t say it says 150, she asked for screenshot to email

Just got email back from Patek Switzerland that there was a mistake with site pricing and they are sending me the archives complimentary with refund

Well, that worked out well for you!

[David001]

Originally Posted by bonsai-man

A service, is simply a maintenance intervention. Service papers are just a receipt of the intervention. It does not prove ownership, a watch is not stolen or that the person sending it in is the legal owner.

I see this “sure method of authentication” hundreds of times on the Rolex and Patek sub forum. Saying or reading something hundreds of times doesn’t make it true, if the watch is suspect walk away.

Sigh.

It's not just a maintenance intervention though is it. You can keep saying that but it doesn't mean you're right either. If it was then fewer people would pay the stranglehold prices of an authorised service centre, we might go to cheaper independents.
Unless you're claiming that Patek or Rolex et al will service a counterfeit or stolen watch and happily return it to you without even a conversation?

I wasn't born yesterday, if I buy a watch then you can be 99% sure that I think it's all legitimate anyway, but what's wrong with wanting to send it to the manufacturer for a full service and peace of mind? I'm willing to pay the full cost of it, I don't want it for free. Is this some sort of horrible thing to do amongst watch nerds or something?

If I buy a used car I might take it to the main dealer to have it serviced and make sure it's all 100%. If I buy a house I won't expect it to fall down tomorrow, I'll have a good look around, I'm not an idiot, but I'll still get a professional surveyor to check it out. If I buy a yacht I'll have a very good idea of what I'm buying but I'll still get a marine surveyor to check it out.
You see where I'm going with this?

Buy the seller? Do your due diligence. Yeah brilliant advice, like no one has ever been conned ever. In fact, that's exactly how people get conned, because they think they're too clever to get conned, they buy the seller and then wham, they've been conned.

There have been cases of authorised dealers of luxury goods selling something that wasn't legit, for various reasons.
Pensions have been sold that weren't right, shares, stocks, cars, houses, in fact pretty much anything that can be sold can also be mis-sold.

A watch manufacturer won't service (and return) a watch that is stolen or counterfeit. That's worth something to me and I'll happily pay the cost of a service for that.
I don't understand why this concept is hard to understand.

If I send a watch in to Rolex and I get it back running perfectly then you can guarantee two things, one is that it's a genuine Rolex with all genuine parts and two is that it's not on the Rolex stolen register.

That's all. They don't need to prove to me that I didn't steal it, I know I didn't steal it, they serviced it and by that very act they're happy it's genuine and I'm happy it's not reported as stolen.

Blimey, it can be hard work here sometimes.

[Bladeshot]

Originally Posted by scurfa

Revolution magazine have info of a u turn on this decision, more news to follow.


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Here is the link mentioned. Thank you for signaling that an adjustment was forthcoming. https://revolution.watch/breaking-ne...hive-extracts/

[bonsai-man]

Originally Posted by David001

Sigh.

It's not just a maintenance intervention though is it. You can keep saying that but it doesn't mean you're right either. If it was then fewer people would pay the stranglehold prices of an authorised service centre, we might go to cheaper independents.
Unless you're claiming that Patek or Rolex et al will service a counterfeit or stolen watch and happily return it to you without even a conversation?

I wasn't born yesterday, if I buy a watch then you can be 99% sure that I think it's all legitimate anyway, but what's wrong with wanting to send it to the manufacturer for a full service and peace of mind? I'm willing to pay the full cost of it, I don't want it for free. Is this some sort of horrible thing to do amongst watch nerds or something?

If I buy a used car I might take it to the main dealer to have it serviced and make sure it's all 100%. If I buy a house I won't expect it to fall down tomorrow, I'll have a good look around, I'm not an idiot, but I'll still get a professional surveyor to check it out. If I buy a yacht I'll have a very good idea of what I'm buying but I'll still get a marine surveyor to check it out.
You see where I'm going with this?

Buy the seller? Do your due diligence. Yeah brilliant advice, like no one has ever been conned ever. In fact, that's exactly how people get conned, because they think they're too clever to get conned, they buy the seller and then wham, they've been conned.

There have been cases of authorised dealers of luxury goods selling something that wasn't legit, for various reasons.
Pensions have been sold that weren't right, shares, stocks, cars, houses, in fact pretty much anything that can be sold can also be mis-sold.

A watch manufacturer won't service (and return) a watch that is stolen or counterfeit. That's worth something to me and I'll happily pay the cost of a service for that.
I don't understand why this concept is hard to understand.

If I send a watch in to Rolex and I get it back running perfectly then you can guarantee two things, one is that it's a genuine Rolex with all genuine parts and two is that it's not on the Rolex stolen register.

That's all. They don't need to prove to me that I didn't steal it, I know I didn't steal it, they serviced it and by that very act they're happy it's genuine and I'm happy it's not reported as stolen.

Blimey, it can be hard work here sometimes.

Sigh.

[MadSpaniard]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

I just got an $11k quote to repair clean my pocket watch. Tad excessive for a watch worth $5k

k

I got the exact same $10-15k service quote from Patek (Stern Agency NYC) for my Patek pocket watch, which is a c. 1930 model worth maybe $3-5k (formerly my grandfather's pocket watch).

Instead, I had it serviced at Grand Central Watch in NYC. They did a good job at a far lower cost, although in retrospect they were also somewhat expensive in comparison to competing service shops (I've figured out since then).

[alpharulez]

Originally Posted by Bladeshot

Here is the link mentioned. Thank you for signaling that an adjustment was forthcoming. https://revolution.watch/breaking-ne...hive-extracts/

They are still thinking about it the way I read that article. So no change yet but just considerations to feedback from collectors. More to come then.


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[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by MadSpaniard

I got the exact same $10-15k service quote from Patek (Stern Agency NYC) for my Patek pocket watch, which is a c. 1930 model worth maybe $3-5k (formerly my grandfather's pocket watch).

Instead, I had it serviced at Grand Central Watch in NYC. They did a good job at a far lower cost, although in retrospect they were also somewhat expensive in comparison to competing service shops (I've figured out since then).

Thks for this insight.


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