Buying without papers?

[David001]

I've been waiting forever for a 5712, but it's clear I'm wasting my time with ADs.

There is one for sale in a grey dealers I know and it looks nice, but it doesn't have the original warranty, everything else is there (box, etc) but the story goes that the warranty got put somewhere at home by the original owner and then lost in a house move.

The grey dealer has been trading for more than a decade and seems reputable, but I don't usually buy from grey dealers and wonder how much risk is involved. I guess having the original warranty is no guarantee it wasn't stolen as it could have been stolen in the box with the warranty inside, which is where I keep mine.

It's a lot of money and it seems irrational to place too much emphasis on the original warranty card as any kind of guarantee of anything.

[Benzsiam]

When you buy pre-owned, you have to buy the seller. If it is trusted seller like DavidSW or Takuya, I am sure they will stand behind their product. You can send to PP to give the certificate of authenticity, if it is fake, you can get back with the trusted seller for your money back.

[ec00421]

Is the dealer giving you a discount or anything for the lack of papers?

[ts3]

Originally Posted by Benzsiam

When you buy pre-owned, you have to buy the seller. If it is trusted seller like DavidSW or Takuya, I am sure they will stand behind their product. You can send to PP to give the certificate of authenticity, if it is fake, you can get back with the trusted seller for your money back.

Don't know what you mean with certificate of authenticity. There is the lost Certificate of Origin which Patek will not re-issue. Then OP could get an Extract from the Archives but that is no proof of authenticity. What OP could do to make sure everything is in order is to send it in for a service. But he won't get a certificate of authenticity, just papers documenting the work done and the cost.

[Benzsiam]

Originally Posted by ts3

Don't know what you mean with certificate of authenticity. There is the lost Certificate of Origin which Patek will not re-issue. Then OP could get an Extract from the Archives but that is no proof of authenticity. What OP could do to make sure everything is in order is to send it in for a service. But he won't get a certificate of authenticity, just papers documenting the work done and the cost.

OK, the best way is to send the watch in for service as you said.

If he sends in for service and get the paper from PP (documenting the work done), it should be good enough to proof that watch is authentic not a replica. If that watch is replica, PP service center will not take in for service.

[w220]

Papers are nice, but if the seller is trustworthy and the price is good, I'd have no problems buying without papers. After all I'll be wearing the watch and not the papers.

[azizu]

if your only issue is that the watch might be stolen,
then there are websites that you can use and enter the watch case number and movement number and the website would tell you if the watch is clean or have been reported stolen.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by David001

I've been waiting forever for a 5712, but it's clear I'm wasting my time with ADs.

There is one for sale in a grey dealers I know and it looks nice, but it doesn't have the original warranty, everything else is there (box, etc) but the story goes that the warranty got put somewhere at home by the original owner and then lost in a house move.

The grey dealer has been trading for more than a decade and seems reputable, but I don't usually buy from grey dealers and wonder how much risk is involved. I guess having the original warranty is no guarantee it wasn't stolen as it could have been stolen in the box with the warranty inside, which is where I keep mine.

It's a lot of money and it seems irrational to place too much emphasis on the original warranty card as any kind of guarantee of anything.

Expensive but easy watch to get. 2 for sale now on EWC. Just buy the dealer. I’d never buy a 5712 without complete set.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[David001]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

Expensive but easy watch to get. 2 for sale now on EWC. Just buy the dealer. I’d never buy a 5712 without complete set.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Almost anything is easy to get if you're willing to spend the right money.

I asked a lot of questions and my hunch is this was a distress sale by someone away from home and needed the money. My guess is that the watch was then paired with an appropriate box and is for sale minus the papers.

It's not a fake and maybe (for example) it was sold in HK by a guy that lives in Iowa and the box/papers weren't with him but he needed the money quickly and just sold it minus the accoutrements.

It's an independent dealer and he has a decent reputation but playing devils advocate he has no way of knowing if this watch was stolen halfway around the world and traded a few times and now sits on his shelf. I did once buy a Rolex watch from Watchbox, but they're owned by people that have the means to check directly with the manufacturer for anything on a stolen list, whereas if you buy from a complete independent they're literally blind to the factory registered stolen list.

I think I'll give this a miss, I don't feel good enough about it to drop this sort of money and sleep comfortably.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by David001

Almost anything is easy to get if you're willing to spend the right money.

I asked a lot of questions and my hunch is this was a distress sale by someone away from home and needed the money. My guess is that the watch was then paired with an appropriate box and is for sale minus the papers.

It's not a fake and maybe (for example) it was sold in HK by a guy that lives in Iowa and the box/papers weren't with him but he needed the money quickly and just sold it minus the accoutrements.

It's an independent dealer and he has a decent reputation but playing devils advocate he has no way of knowing if this watch was stolen halfway around the world and traded a few times and now sits on his shelf. I did once buy a Rolex watch from Watchbox, but they're owned by people that have the means to check directly with the manufacturer for anything on a stolen list, whereas if you buy from a complete independent they're literally blind to the factory registered stolen list.

I think I'll give this a miss, I don't feel good enough about it to drop this sort of money and sleep comfortably.

Iowa. Hong Kong. Paired with a random box. “Decent” reputation. This isn’t a winning combination. As you note — these are totally gettable. I wouldn’t treat the acquisition like a “special on isle 4” at Walmart.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[David001]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

Iowa. Hong Kong. Paired with a random box. “Decent” reputation. This isn’t a winning combination. As you note — these are totally gettable. I wouldn’t treat the acquisition like a “special on isle 4” at Walmart.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lol, that was obviously just an example and my (possibly) paranoid hunch.
For all I know it’s 100% as described. The dealer has over a hundred positive reviews on Chrono24 and google, so I can’t describe them as anything less than reputable.

But secondhand watches and cars obviously have their pitfalls and my preference is always to buy from an AD - although in this case it’s impossible.

For what it’s worth I was initially equally as distrusting buying a pm Rolex from Watchbox.

[bonsai-man]

Originally Posted by ts3

Don't know what you mean with certificate of authenticity. There is the lost Certificate of Origin which Patek will not re-issue. Then OP could get an Extract from the Archives but that is no proof of authenticity. What OP could do to make sure everything is in order is to send it in for a service. But he won't get a certificate of authenticity, just papers documenting the work done and the cost.

I am not sure this is correct, they can get extract from archives but not service papers from Patek. I recently sent 2 watches to Patek SC and never got service papers or anything to say what work was carried out. I recall a thread on here recently where many other’s also never got any service paperwork from Patek either. Some got a receipt from the AD but that was all.

I am happy to to be corrected, but I don’t want anyone reading this thread to assume they will get service papers to replace the original Patek COA when they may not. My Omega also returned from the UK Omega SC without the usual “red service warranty card”. When I asked for it I was told they no longer issue service papers, they just keep records on their system now.

[bonsai-man]

I read many times in this thread to “always buy the seller”, and that’s good advice for a “steel Rolex”. At Patek level and price point, it is far less relevant. Even if the watch is genuine, not stolen and the seller is honourable and trustworthy you will have a hard time moving it on yourself without the COA, and even if you do you’ll take a bath. IME ALL grey’s will use the missing COA to fleece you, and private buyers will start a thread on a web forum then walk away.

The seller may have a fantastic reputation, but will YOU if you ever decide to sell. If the answer is no, you need a huge discount or walk away unless it’s a rare piece or a deal you’ll never get again. Always remember buy cheap pay twice, it’s an exact science as consistent as gravity IMO.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by bonsai-man

I read many times in this thread to “always buy the seller”, and that’s good advice for a “steel Rolex”. At Patek level and price point, it is far less relevant.

Wait, what? Don’t ‘buy the seller’ when buying a Patek? Bass ackwards. Hilarious!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bruce_Wayne]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

Wait, what? Don’t ‘buy the seller’ when buying a Patek? Bass ackwards. Hilarious!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think there is a typo because the rest of the post seems to imply you SHOULD try get papers or expect to take take a loss in the long run.


Sent from the Waitlist at 6 different ADs

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by Bruce_Wayne

I think there is a typo because the rest of the post seems to imply you SHOULD try get papers or expect to take take a loss in the long run.


Sent from the Waitlist at 6 different ADs

You’d certainly think there was a typo. B&P is certainly a key point of that post, but it also seems to suggest that box and papers can supplant a reputable seller, which poster says “far less relevant“ than for a steel Rolex. Which is funny.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ts3]

Originally Posted by bonsai-man

I am not sure this is correct, they can get extract from archives but not service papers from Patek. I recently sent 2 watches to Patek SC and never got service papers or anything to say what work was carried out. I recall a thread on here recently where many other’s also never got any service paperwork from Patek either. Some got a receipt from the AD but that was all.

I am happy to to be corrected, but I don’t want anyone reading this thread to assume they will get service papers to replace the original Patek COA when they may not. My Omega also returned from the UK Omega SC without the usual “red service warranty card”. When I asked for it I was told they no longer issue service papers, they just keep records on their system now.

I recall the other thread as well and commented back then. When I said papers above I meant a one-page document / receipt that says which service has been done and if any major parts needed replacement and at what cost, which also includes the case and movement numbers of the watch. This service document does obviously not replace a missing Certificate of Origin. A few years ago I got that one-pager when going through my local Patek service center directly. Last year I went via the AD to the same Patek service center and got nothing. Either because I went through the AD, or because that watch was still under warranty and required only regulation, or because they don't issue service paperwork anymore as they told you.

In terms of getting comfort if a watch is legit or not a service will certainly help no matter the documentation. Ordering an Extract from the Archives will not achieve much IMO as they issue that document without having the watch in hand.

[bonsai-man]

Originally Posted by ts3

I recall the other thread as well and commented back then. When I said papers above I meant a one-page document / receipt that says which service has been done and if any major parts needed replacement and at what cost, which also includes the case and movement numbers of the watch. This service document does obviously not replace a missing Certificate of Origin. A few years ago I got that one-pager when going through my local Patek service center directly. Last year I went via the AD to the same Patek service center and got nothing. Either because I went through the AD, or because that watch was still under warranty and required only regulation, or because they don't issue service paperwork anymore as they told you.

In terms of getting comfort if a watch is legit or not a service will certainly help no matter the documentation. Ordering an Extract from the Archives will not achieve much IMO as they issue that document without having the watch in hand.

I have only sent watches via the AD so have no experience going direct to the SC. It would have been nice to know what work was done though.

[CastorKrieg]

Originally Posted by ts3

In terms of getting comfort if a watch is legit or not a service will certainly help no matter the documentation. Ordering an Extract from the Archives will not achieve much IMO as they issue that document without having the watch in hand.

The purpose of the Extract is to compare the case and movement no. with the ones of the watch to make sure the model, dial type, etc. all match. It is not the same as CoA but it helps.

Personally I would not buy a watch without CoA, I cannot imagine any watch bought in the last 20 years would be kept without full box+papers set. 'Losing' something in the house move is fishy AF:

1. If you have a Patek watch wouldn't you keep everything together and know exactly where things are?
2. Sourcing the box is not that hard if you know what you are doing

[bonsai-man]

Originally Posted by CastorKrieg

The purpose of the Extract is to compare the case and movement no. with the ones of the watch to make sure the model, dial type, etc. all match. It is not the same as CoA but it helps.

Personally I would not buy a watch without CoA, I cannot imagine any watch bought in the last 20 years would be kept without full box+papers set. 'Losing' something in the house move is fishy AF:

1. If you have a Patek watch wouldn't you keep everything together and know exactly where things are?
2. Sourcing the box is not that hard if you know what you are doing

100% agree

[CastorKrieg]

As other people pointed out if you at any point want to sell the watch without the papers you will take a major hit and in the case of 5712 it can easily be 10 000’s of $, however there is also another matter I forgot to mention - if the watch is stolen.

If it is stolen and the original owner has the papers and informs Patek about the theft the moment you send it for service your watch will be withheld and returned to the original owner.

Don’t risk it, if you really want 5712 from a grey dealer shop around for a full set.

[nhk]

CastorKrieg makes such a good point about the watch possibly being a stolen item. I find it hard to believe that with these watches costing more than some cars people would even entertain buying without papers. If all the genuine watch people stuck to this philosophy it would severely limit the market in stolen watches. People turning a blind eye to a lack of paperwork are ensuring the market for stolen items is able to continue. The box is another matter as I can understand if it impacts travel or it is regarded as clutter. Personally I keep all my boxes but thats another matter. Certainly buying a Patek without the CoA is unwise unless it’s a vintage piece that has provenance.

I can’t wait for the day we can have a blockchain type certificate attached to a watch thereby ensuring the chain of custody is protected. Few things upset me as much as the trade in stolen goods.

[David001]

Originally Posted by nhk

CastorKrieg makes such a good point about the watch possibly being a stolen item. I find it hard to believe that with these watches costing more than some cars people would even entertain buying without papers.

Buying with papers doesn't mean it isn't stolen, it just means if it is stolen they stole the box and papers with the watch, which is increasingly likely when people keep the watch, box and papers all together these days.

I like to keep all the history of a watch together and I know it can affect the price when you sell it, but unless you're buying it from the original owner and he has ID that matches the certificate, then it is no guarantee that it isn't stolen.

[nhk]

That’s a fair point about the watch being stolen with the papers. But to answer the original question about buying WITHOUT papers - this is more likely to be a problem especially given the cost/value of PP watches.

[starship33]

Originally Posted by nhk

I can’t wait for the day we can have a blockchain type certificate attached to a watch thereby ensuring the chain of custody is protected. Few things upset me as much as the trade in stolen goods.

That’s what Arianee (https://www.arianee.org/) are trying to do. They already have quite some nice brands onboard.

[joli160]

Originally Posted by David001

I did once buy a Rolex watch from Watchbox, but they're owned by people that have the means to check directly with the manufacturer for anything on a stolen list, whereas if you buy from a complete independent they're literally blind to the factory registered stolen list.

Only Rolex has acces to their database. If Watchbox told you they have acces to this you have been lied to.

Any reputable professional seller independent or not will stand behind his product.
Price should reflect the missing papers though because it’s more difficult to sell in the future.

[ragsk]

Too much risk here.

I would not buy without paperwork. Way more important than the box imho.

[nhk]

I know Patek likes to be traditional. So it’s all physical paper and even their event invites are delivered by letter. But the blockchain in conjunction with the physical paperwork could work. Vacheron, AP and several others are onboard. Should be brilliant to show chain of custody and track down stolen property.

Patek and and especially Rolex should consider this.

[Partekular]

Anyone who buys a new PP will have been told the importance of keeping the papers. They are not like a till receipt but a sheet of folded A4 inside the box with the instructions.

VERY ODD for a legit owner not to retain them. Quite a lot of paperless PPs on sale... The more expensive the watch the more likely the buyer would keep them for insurance purposes.

With vintage PPs the story is a bit different...

I wouldn’t ‘buy’ the seller, I’d buy the watch with the papers or I wouldn’t touch it.

[Humble michael]

Originally Posted by Partekular

Anyone who buys a new PP will have been told the importance of keeping the papers. They are not like a till receipt but a sheet of folded A4 inside the box with the instructions.

VERY ODD for a legit owner not to retain them. Quite a lot of paperless PPs on sale... The more expensive the watch the more likely the buyer would keep them for insurance purposes.

With vintage PPs the story is a bit different...

I wouldn’t ‘buy’ the seller, I’d buy the watch with the papers or I wouldn’t touch it.

Absolutely! James in San Antonio Tx:-))