Would you buy a Kermit without Box and Papers?

[InitialAndPitch]

I keep hearing dealers dismiss the value of owning box and papers. Except they advertise “BOX AND PAPERS” where possible. These are also the dealers that are trying to offload watches they own without papers. Take your Rolex into a dealer and try selling without papers and they’ll sell down the value.

[Chrispare]

RSC service is the same ( regarding authenticity ) as original papers and the watch is like new and with a 2 years garantee so, just take it and have it serviced

[donut]

I would go for LV with box&paper. Seem you’ve made a decision. Good move.

[Swaye]

Originally Posted by Chrispare

RSC service is the same ( regarding authenticity ) as original papers and the watch is like new and with a 2 years garantee so, just take it and have it serviced

This isn't a bad idea even if you get B&P on very rare models. If you have the original papers, and everything looks good when you buy it, you can still get a service done and get a fresh card that should match the original papers and watch serial and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that when you received the watch it is as stated. Just "extra" layers of provenance if you will. Even better if the watch is already 10-15 years old and has never been serviced. Probably needed it anyway.

[myusernamez]

forget the Kermit - I wouldn't buy any watch without box and papers.

[Dr Watches]

Originally Posted by k3os

Thanks everyone for the super helpful replies.
I will ask the seller to look into the B&P one as well.

In the meanwhile, adding another photo of the watch, from a closer view.
I know it does look big from such a distance.
Would love to get your opinion on condition and fitting.

Much appreciated!

My wrist is about 6.3 inches (so much larger than yours). My LV wears huge on me and requires a permanent link to be removed to get a moderately centered clasp.

That’s not going to be comfortable on you, and it will look very large. It’s up to you if you want to put up with that.

[jaisonline]

The Kermit is likely the only modern watch I would want the warranty card (or warranty paper). The serial # hangtag is also very important.
Note: I would care less about the box or booklets as they can be purchased separately.

As some members mentioned, there are people who unwillingly purchased 16610LVs that were modified 16610LNs. It just takes a green bezel insert and a maxi black dial for the transformation. While those parts might be hard to obtain, it still increases the LV's price over (about) 100% a LN. thus, some folks who bought Kermit’s with a Rolex service card aren't guaranteed to be 100% legit.

About the box... just like other Rolex watches , dealers picked a Rolex box from pile in their back room. So that means even legit Kermit’s purchased could came with a slightly period incorrect box (e.g. the wooden box with a “C” holder that ended in the 1990s I believe). GMTs and Subs in the 2000s should have either came w/ the dark tan interior pillow w/ green wooden box ) or the modern looking green wave box. The wave box green is a different shade than what's given today. Thus, the box is no big deal for me. The warranty card / paper and hangtag matters.

[Weinboyz]

I'm going to PM you. I just sold one a few months back and I'll give you all of the nitty gritty after doing all my research and selling.

[timvbs]

I would just make the deal contingent on an RSC service if you trust the seller. The original box and papers are nice, but you will get what you need from RSC as long as the watch is authenticated.

[77T]

If buying a Kermit without papers then only pay a 16610 price. Because that is all you may have after authentication.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[padi56]

Originally Posted by myusernamez

forget the Kermit - I wouldn't buy any watch without box and papers.

Well in the real world the so called papers in most cases are just a outdated warranty bit of paper or plastic card.And today the so called papers/cards and boxes are far easier to fake than the actual watch.So never rely on bits of paper or boxes to 100% prove authenticity of any watch unless bought from a 100% reliable source.There was a case on forum quite recently a 16610LV bought with all the paperwork.But when checked by Rolex it was a 16610LN that the dial and insert had been changed.And I would expect there could be many many more especially now the 16610LV is hyped so much to drive the crazy prices up.

[R74pet]

IMHO, if you love it, it is a keeper and you have a way to check authenticity, why not. It is just a watch, not your future. If you plan on flipping it, then a different story. Hope it works out; enjoy it in great health.

[Swaye]

Originally Posted by padi56

Well in the real world the so called papers in most cases are just a outdated warranty bit of paper or plastic card.And today the so called papers/cards and boxes are far easier to fake than the actual watch.So never rely on bits of paper or boxes to 100% prove authenticity of any watch unless bought from a 100% reliable source.There was a case on forum quite recently a 16610LV bought with all the paperwork.But when checked by Rolex it was a 16610LN that the dial and insert had been changed.And I would expect there could be many many more especially now the 16610LV is hyped so much to drive the crazy prices up.

Good points. Just send it to RSC if really concerned even with box and papers. I assume they can check the serial and when you get the watch back it will at least verify the serial is true, which should confirm your papers.

I do not agree with the folks saying you need the hang tag as well. I mean if you can get it great, but why do we need two pieces of ID that can both be faked? Not to mention some ADs never gave out the hang tags in the first place. One piece of "proof" and then have that independently verified by RSC during the course of service. My opinion anyway.

[cpefy3]

I put Kermits on the same level as Tiffany dials. If there isn't official documentation showing that is how originally came, then it is only as valuable as a Submariner (in the Kermit case) of the same age/condition.

[jaisonline]

The serial tag is a “nice to have” item but I do consider it important if you are a buyer who is paying top dollar for the LV. But like Padi said, any piece of paper, tag, etc... can be faked.

For the vast majority of other watches, I personally don't care tags. It's a nice little extra when buying used.

Originally Posted by Swaye

Good points. Just send it to RSC if really concerned even with box and papers. I assume they can check the serial and when you get the watch back it will at least verify the serial is true, which should confirm your papers.

I do not agree with the folks saying you need the hang tag as well. I mean if you can get it great, but why do we need two pieces of ID that can both be faked? Not to mention some ADs never gave out the hang tags in the first place. One piece of "proof" and then have that independently verified by RSC during the course of service. My opinion anyway.

[Swaye]

Originally Posted by jaisonline

The hang tag is a “nice to have” item. But like Padi said, any piece of paper, tag, etc... can be faked.

I would agree. I have it on all my watches but one, which was purchased in Switzerland and the AD's kept them per policy. But, I have talked to a few collectors on here and elsewhere that never considered the serial tag to be a must have because you so often do not find them for older watches. Hell I know for a fact in KSA they won't give them to you even if you refuse to buy the watch.

But there are people who want truly 100% complete, right down to the polishing cloth. So I get it. I just do not subscribe to the notion that a serial tag that is confirmed to not always be included with a watch should be considered a deal breaker, even on a rare watch.

When I do find my Flat 4 I plan to send it in for service first thing because after many PM's from helpful people, verifying the paperwork with an RSC service check tying the serials together (original papers OR original papers + tag) is really the only way to be sure.

Good stuff in this thread.

[DoctorA]

I personally would never buy any watch without papers! In these crazy times there are a lot of fakes (watches and people)
But that’s just me!

[padi56]

Originally Posted by DoctorA

I personally would never buy any watch without papers! In these crazy times there are a lot of fakes (watches and people)
But that’s just me!

The so called Papers are far easier to fake than the watch, I have see quite a few over the past few years that would fool most even the newer plastic cards.

[woof]

It looks good on your wrist. Since you trust the seller you should just save your money and get the one w/o the box and paper. Good Luck !!

[javier]

Originally Posted by bezler

It's really far too big for your wrist. Look into a 36 mm DJ, lots of good deals available for that.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

My friend, it is too big for the size of your wrist !!!

[myusernamez]

Originally Posted by padi56

Well in the real world the so called papers in most cases are just a outdated warranty bit of paper or plastic card.And today the so called papers/cards and boxes are far easier to fake than the actual watch.So never rely on bits of paper or boxes to 100% prove authenticity of any watch unless bought from a 100% reliable source.There was a case on forum quite recently a 16610LV bought with all the paperwork.But when checked by Rolex it was a 16610LN that the dial and insert had been changed.And I would expect there could be many many more especially now the 16610LV is hyped so much to drive the crazy prices up.

Don't get me wrong - I totally agree with you. But it just that having that in a collection doesn't feel right. The OCD side of me can't handle that. I would regret not having the full set and it would bother me each time I wear it. I would in the end buy a new one as a full set.

Also - can you link me to that thread? I'm not active every week so I seems I missed it.

[bobernet]

I once bought a watch with a unique dial that was missing papers. I paid top dollar, but justified it to myself that the lack of papers didn’t matter since I was never planning to sell it.

I eventually did sell it, and that decision to ignore the lack of papers cost me about $4k on the back side of the deal.

The box and papers situation really is nonsense most of the time. They are easily faked, prove nothing, and add nothing to the enjoyment of wearing the watch. Never the less, nonsense or not, it will cost you on the backside unless you get a tremendous discount up front.

Caveat emptor.

[jaisonline]

true. it's getting to be like the classic car collectible market. folks drive the car and not the paperwork given at time of the original purchase or during a service. however, folks pay a pretty premium for the extra little things...

Originally Posted by bobernet

I once bought a watch with a unique dial that was missing papers. I paid top dollar, but justified it to myself that the lack of papers didn’t matter since I was never planning to sell it.

I eventually did sell it, and that decision to ignore the lack of papers cost me about $4k on the back side of the deal.

The box and papers situation really is nonsense most of the time. They are easily faked, prove nothing, and add nothing to the enjoyment of wearing the watch. Never the less, nonsense or not, it will cost you on the backside unless you get a tremendous discount up front.

Caveat emptor.

[Chrispare]

Originally Posted by bobernet

I once bought a watch with a unique dial that was missing papers. I paid top dollar, but justified it to myself that the lack of papers didn’t matter since I was never planning to sell it.

I eventually did sell it, and that decision to ignore the lack of papers cost me about $4k on the back side of the deal.

The box and papers situation really is nonsense most of the time. They are easily faked, prove nothing, and add nothing to the enjoyment of wearing the watch. Never the less, nonsense or not, it will cost you on the backside unless you get a tremendous discount up front.

Caveat emptor.

4K for papers ? Wow , when you can have the watch serviced by Rolex and so proof it is authentic …

[HappyFish]

A collectible watch without papers, is like a vintage Porsche without the title - even as any Porsche Dealer will tell you - "yes, it`s a Porsche"! For the 16610 LV spoken - for early Flat 4 ones the paperwork is even more worth than 4K! Check it out at Chrono24...especially US watches often have no Box&Papers....maybe it`s because of their throw it away mentality ;-)!

[TimeToWatch]

Do you like the watch? If you do, boxes and papers make little difference. Their importance only comes into play if you want to sell. Buy the right watch and this shouldn’t be a concern.

Without reading every reply, I'm guessing around 90% said to buy box and papers. I think as a community people are overly focused on these trivial accessories that you ultimately throw into a closet until you one day decide to sell. Plus, of any component these are the easiest to fake. Check out how many boxes are for sale on eBay. Papers are sadly also easily faked.

[cpefy3]

Originally Posted by Chrispare

4K for papers ? Wow , when you can have the watch serviced by Rolex and so proof it is authentic …

You can definitely have it serviced after you buy it. What happens when Rolex tells you that it is simply a 16610 with a swapped dial/insert?

[HogwldFLTR]

It's too easy to turn an LN into an LV so in this case I'd at least want the papers!!! Box is optional..

[RJM25R]

Why do you need approval from on people on the ‘net?


Buy what YOU want..........

[HappyFish]

A nice Random Serial 16610 LV is now traded for about 25-35k - without papers it`s "nothing" or at least 10k less worth`Welcome to the collectors world!It seems as not to be rational, but it`s for 100%! Collectors, curators, dealers make the market - if its in arts, in vintage, in anything -and for sure not the dummies on the street!