AD selling over MSRP

[eonflux]

Originally Posted by dmash

Because it’s entirely manipulated. The watches are sold backdoor even with nobody on a ‘list’ and greys are listing at inflated prices/whatever they want, therefore controlling the market. So everything is propped up higher than if ADs were allowed to just charge whatever and dismiss the grey market entirely.

I’m not saying there is no demand, I’m saying prices are being propped up by the current scheme. If people would just stop buying grey for a year we’d have a more realistic look on things, but people continue to pay whatever and it allows the current AD/Reseller relationship to grow stronger and more profitable.

Why aren't all Rolex models going for so much higher than MSRP?

If all the ADs and greys have to do is artificially limit supply to drive up prices with whatever demand level exists, then the ADs and greys would be playing that game with all brands and all models.

To me, supply/demand applies to the whole situation, and the demand is high enough for some models that these reindeer games can be run.
Not saying I like these games, but only way for them to stop is that no one plays them (no buyers pay those prices).

[chinguel]

Originally Posted by eonflux

Why aren't all Rolex models going for so much higher than MSRP?

If all the ADs and greys have to do is artificially limit supply to drive up prices with whatever demand level exists, then the ADs and greys would be playing that game with all brands and all models.

To me, supply/demand applies to the whole situation, and the demand is high enough for some models that these reindeer games can be run.
Not saying I like these games, but only way for them to stop is that no one plays them (no buyers pay those prices).

Couldn’t agree more.
If no one play. Theirs Game is Over.

[watchmaker]

Originally Posted by jamestucker

They don't sell above retail.

I’m aware of that.

I said ‘they can’ meaning there is no legal barrier to prevent them from doing it.

The reason they don’t do it by convention is (as others have said already) it’s a fast way to lose their account.

Notwithstanding, they still can sell above MRSP

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by Tools

Yes, they can, and do, just as easily as they can discount if they choose to.

MSRP is a suggested price that almost everything sold has listed. It's frowned on, but it's done all the time.

Exactly

[georgekart]

Originally Posted by eonflux

.
Not saying I like these games, but only way for them to stop is that no one plays them (no buyers pay those prices).

I don't see this happening any time soon. Because let's say supply is two times smaller than the demand. Not everyone out of those who are willing to pay will be willing to pay 2xMSRP, but 15% will be. So those are out. Now we are left with 30% of watches gone to those who are willing to pay 2xMSRP (15% of demand*2 as supply is 2x smaller). 30% are willing to bundle or build relationships, so additional 60% of supply is gone. That leaves 10% of supply for the 55% of demand. So as initial demand is 2x supply, that means that those who aren't building significant relationships/bundling outstrip the supply allocated to them by a factor of 11 (55%*2=110%/10%=11). Sure some will be getting lucky at an AD that just received them or something, but most of the time it's a no.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

Direct Answer: No.

Nuanced Answer: If they sell pre-owned watches and the watch is described as such, they can ask whatever they want. However, this would need to be transparent to you that you're purchasing a pre-owned watch.

In theory ADs could charge what they like as its only a suggested retail price on the Rolex site.

[77T]

Think about it for a moment - you’ll see that Rolex could gut the grey dealer market if they allowed such dealings in their ADs. Rolex frowns upon ADs gouging customers. But if they allowed it, there would be little reason for ADs to sell to greys.

While the laws vary in different countries, the contracts with Rolex stay very close to their policy: The price on the website for each country is the price Rolex wants a dealer to charge.

ADs contort their sales transactions every which way to maximize profit on the scarce SS professional models without breaching the Rolex contract. Bundling, pre-purchase lists, qualifying purchases, etc. are all symptoms of a greedy AD and a demand/supply imbalance.

Why don’t you see that being done on routine DJs sitting in the case? Simple - supply exceeds demand.

Have you read the Rolex website page on the availability issue?
“All products displayed on the Website may be available at Official Rolex Retailers. To ensure authenticity, genuine Rolex products are sold exclusively through Official Rolex Retailers. Rolex does not sell watches directly from the Website and cannot ensure the authenticity of watches sold online. Rolex invites you to visit your nearest Official Rolex Retailer.

All Rolex watches are assembled by hand with the utmost care to ensure exceptional quality. Such high standards naturally restrict our production capacity and, at times, the demand for our watches outpaces this capacity. Therefore, the availability of certain models may be limited. New Rolex watches are exclusively sold by Official Rolex Retailers, who receive regular deliveries and independently manage the allocation and sales of watches to customers. Official Rolex Retailers can provide information on the availability of Rolex watches.”


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[Soarer]

Originally Posted by joli160

You would not mind a discount would you ?

Discount is shady to you?


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[Gravyboay6969]

Why would you not want to say their name? Name and shame.

Originally Posted by McinRolex

There is one AD I know sells above MSRP.

Basically what happened was I asked them if they have SS Daytona in stock and they said yes and willing to sell me MSRP + Current market premium (About $10,000) in cash.

They said I can pay however I like for the MSRP but the premium must be paid with cash.

Of course this AD is known for bundling junks to get you qualified for desirable piece.

I'm not going to say the AD name but they are in SoCal (Border of LA and Orange County).

[watchmaker]

Originally Posted by Gravyboay6969

Why would you not want to say their name? Name and shame.

Naming a business when making an allegation like that could have very serious legal consequences if there is no proof.

There are plenty of exaggerated or flat out false stories on this forum. In the absence of evidence it’s best these tales remain anonymous.

[Faraaz23]

Amazing how this AD in SoCal hasn't had the hammer brought down on them if they've been up to this for years. This makes me wonder if the Rolex District Managers are turning a blind eye for a few rea$ons.

This also brings me to the question of how much Rolex could actually increase their sport-watch production each year, while still maintaining these insane waits and not diluting the brand.

[Oceanlover914]

Originally Posted by drjt

This is now the third instance I've heard of this AD doing this. Not hard to guess who. There's only a few in Maryland.

I knew what I was getting in to when I did it. My hope was that he would sell a model to me that I wanted at MSRP at some point but that never happened. The main reason I did it anyway was that I didn't want to wait to randomly find one somewhere, plus there is now pretty much one authorized dealer left in the Baltimore Metro area. And I would still rather deal with an AD I know then a grey I don't. Although I have also bought many from greys that I fully trust.

I would not do it again!!

[BumbleB]

Originally Posted by McinRolex

There is one AD I know sells above MSRP.

Basically what happened was I asked them if they have SS Daytona in stock and they said yes and willing to sell me MSRP + Current market premium (About $10,000) in cash.

They said I can pay however I like for the MSRP but the premium must be paid with cash.

Of course this AD is known for bundling junks to get you qualified for desirable piece.

I'm not going to say the AD name but they are in SoCal (Border of LA and Orange County).

That’s dodgy. You probably won’t get a receipt for the 10k you pay over msrp...


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[eonflux]

Originally Posted by georgekart

I don't see this happening any time soon. Because let's say supply is two times smaller than the demand. Not everyone out of those who are willing to pay will be willing to pay 2xMSRP, but 15% will be. So those are out. Now we are left with 30% of watches gone to those who are willing to pay 2xMSRP (15% of demand*2 as supply is 2x smaller). 30% are willing to bundle or build relationships, so additional 60% of supply is gone. That leaves 10% of supply for the 55% of demand. So as initial demand is 2x supply, that means that those who aren't building significant relationships/bundling outstrip the supply allocated to them by a factor of 11 (55%*2=110%/10%=11). Sure some will be getting lucky at an AD that just received them or something, but most of the time it's a no.

It won't happen soon because there are enough players willing to pay that 2x MSRP to keep that part of the game going. Note that the VIPs being given hot watches at MSRP by ADs have already paid a premium by buying other things from the AD, hence the relationships. Those whales have also been playing this game.

The "market" is this whole mess, and everybody is in reality is paying above MSRP, some by outright purchasing beyond MSRP, others by buying bundles or whatever else is needed to be preferred by ADs.

If Rolex raised production and/or MSRP, this would change more quickly.

[BumbleB]

Originally Posted by RolexintheNorth

In North America and Europe, No. You may get a bundling deal but never over MSRP on one single item. In Asia, Yes.

What do you base this statement on, your actual experience?


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[Oceanlover914]

Originally Posted by watchmaker

Naming a business when making an allegation like that could have very serious legal consequences if there is no proof.

There are plenty of exaggerated or flat out false stories on this forum. In the absence of evidence it’s best these tales remain anonymous.

The receipts were drawn up very carefully. They obviously had to give me a receipt for the purchase to be used with the warranty, but the store receipt was worded in such a way that it would have been hard to prove. Plus I was complicit so could it be considered entrapment? and more over would Rolex even have care if I was the only one. I figured not.

[GB-man]

I bought not one but two Daytona’s for over msrp in 2017. Same AD/boutique.

Yes it happens.

[georgekart]

Originally Posted by eonflux

It won't happen soon because there are enough players willing to pay that 2x MSRP to keep that part of the game going. Note that the VIPs being given hot watches at MSRP by ADs have already paid a premium by buying other things from the AD, hence the relationships. Those whales have also been playing this game.

The "market" is this whole mess, and everybody is in reality is paying above MSRP, some by outright purchasing beyond MSRP, others by buying bundles or whatever else is needed to be preferred by ADs.

If Rolex raised production and/or MSRP, this would change more quickly.

Rolex clearly won't do it. They can't say Cermit is worth 50% more than the black Sub. Or white SS Daytona is worth same as DD40. Or some dials are worth way more because they are blue or green and not some other color.

[RolexintheNorth]

Originally Posted by BumbleB

What do you base this statement on, your actual experience?


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yes. have been to ADs in US/Canada, some major cities in Europe and HK/Macao in the past few years. An HK AD asked for over MSRP on a Daytona and I refused. A friend of mine had a similar experience in HK as well. Never experienced such thing at NA and EU ADs.

[greengold]

Originally Posted by watchmaker

In the UK they can sell above MRSP just as they can sell below MRSP.

Rolex doesn’t like either, but neither is illegal.

We mustn’t forget what brands like and what the law dictates aren’t always the same.

Show me one AD that does..

[teck21]

Originally Posted by georgekart

Rolex clearly won't do it. They can't say Cermit is worth 50% more than the black Sub. Or white SS Daytona is worth same as DD40. Or some dials are worth way more because they are blue or green and not some other color.

Exactly, they have a very clear idea of what their watch hierarchy is like, and pricing of each model needs to reflect its place in it.

Allowing MSRP to change according to demand is not a starter at all and people should just stop suggesting it as a way to stop watches going straight to greys.

For various reasons, Rolex will absolutely not permit prices at AD to vary from wheat they have set.


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[dmash]

Originally Posted by georgekart

Rolex clearly won't do it. They can't say Cermit is worth 50% more than the black Sub. Or white SS Daytona is worth same as DD40. Or some dials are worth way more because they are blue or green and not some other color.

They wouldn’t be, they would maintain the same MSRP. The AD would be saying those prices. Those are two entirely different things.

[rod727]

Car dealers here call it a “market adjustment” for highly desirable models.

[watchmaker]

Originally Posted by greengold

Show me one AD that does..

I’m not aware of any that do. Not biting the hand that feeds you comes to mind.

Still doesn’t change the fact that (legally speaking) they can charge as much or as little as they want. They could give out Daytonas for free if they wanted to (and I’ll bet nobody would be complaining that they didn’t charge MRSP if that happened).

[georgekart]

Originally Posted by dmash

They wouldn’t be, they would maintain the same MSRP. The AD would be saying those prices. Those are two entirely different things.

I was responding to this:

Originally Posted by eonflux

If Rolex raised production and/or MSRP, this would change more quickly.

They can't. Obviously we saw dealers do this. Either directly (greys) or indirectly (ADs which will change what history/bundling you need based on model). But a company like Rolex can't do it. They can't say for instance white Daytona is worth more than black. Because that'd be bullshit.

[1665fan]

BHINDI will be busted if Rolex really does frequent this site.....we shall see

[alex.cicollo]

Originally Posted by Horoiogy

Im not in the us, im from south america. Earlier this week i got a calla from one of the most famous ad in the country, and was directly asked for $22.000 for the first sub lv that arrived from the 2020 models. I was going to post about it but then i started reading that is somewhat normal.. and was going to send an email to Rolex but then felt that i would get nowhere, and that this is how things are being managed right now... also i was told that rolex is aware of this practice from ads(meaning that they know about it and wont do anything about it). Sorry for the poor English i should post more often to practice haha

In Brazil, it’s all Rolex list price. They do have a lower and upper range to allow for currency fluctuation, but it’s a very small range. They abide by it big time.

[eonflux]

Originally Posted by georgekart

I was responding to this:

They can't. Obviously we saw dealers do this. Either directly (greys) or indirectly (ADs which will change what history/bundling you need based on model). But a company like Rolex can't do it. They can't say for instance white Daytona is worth more than black. Because that'd be bullshit.

It'd be BS, but that doesn't prevent them from doing so.
Rolex could price their watches however they want.

By not increasing MSRP for higher demand watches, Rolex is missing out on the current market, leaving ADs and greys to profit more.

The D-Blue MSRP is higher than the black dial DSSD, though not by much.
Rolex could do that with another variation for any other models.

For example, Rolex could bump up the black dial Sub41 to $12k, and the half-Hulk up to $15k, or whatever else better captures more profit for them.

Of course, if the market crashes, then Rolex is stuck with those MSRPs and perhaps that's why Rolex is not increasing prices but resorting to games with sending secret shoppers to buy from ADs, tracking serial numbers, having ADs hold onto warranty cards, dropping an AD here or there, or whatever else people have been reporting, all of which seems like all a waste of resources.

[Bizcut1]

Originally Posted by watchmaker

Naming a business when making an allegation like that could have very serious legal consequences if there is no proof.

There are plenty of exaggerated or flat out false stories on this forum. In the absence of evidence it’s best these tales remain anonymous.

Yes, indeed. +1. And a huge grain of salt is not a bad idea either...especially on this topic...lots of fiction writers here.

I get it that, as an emotional salve, this kind of preaching and strutting feels good but its meaningless...its a watch. Pay

for it or don't. There's someone right behind you willing if you aren't.

[blown5.0]

I just assumed most ADs sell popular models over MSRP in whatever form/scheme they want. This can be in the form of "building a relationship" or just brazenly overcharging on one sale.