Forked over 19% tax at Frankfurt Airport upon entry: A Cautionary Tale

[daveathall]

He wasn't made to pay duty on the watch he was wearing. They were made to pay duty on the watch that he said he gave to his fiancé as a gift who was a national and resident of that country. Wouldn't that be the same in any other country.

I would be interested to hear from anyone who returned to their own country with a high price watch and when asked by customs where they got it? Said "it was a gift" and the customs charges were waived.

It seems that people are misunderstanding the op or are not reading what was said.

[TK-710]

I’m aware of all the tax laws and consequences. That said I’m not sure how many people carry receipts with them for older possessions just so they can come home and not have to prove they bought and paid the taxes for it years ago. My scenario is not about returning home with stuff you bought on vacation. My scenario is either returning home with stuff you brought on vacation or proving to customs in a country you are entering that for some reason you bring several luxury watches on every vacation, as some here seem to do, and your not selling them while you’re there.

In the OP’s case having the receipt would have been of noxious value since it wasn’t purchased in Germany and she was returning to Germany with it in her possession and they were told it was a gift. Really no way out of that one.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by daveathall

He wasn't made to pay duty on the watch he was wearing. They were made to pay duty on the watch that he said he gave to his fiancé as a gift who was a national and resident of that country. Wouldn't that be the same in any other country.

I would be interested to hear from anyone who returned to their own country with a high price watch and when asked by customs where they got it? Said "it was a gift" and the customs charges were waived.

It seems that people are misunderstanding the op or are not reading what was said.

I agree, but in this case I think the OP is saying the watch was not new but several years old.

This begs the question as to how far back customs is willing to go. Say It’s the same situation but the gift was from her grandfather, and a 40 year old watch. Would that still be taxable?

[dmash]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I agree, but in this case I think the OP is saying the watch was not new but several years old.

This begs the question as to how far back customs is willing to go. Say It’s the same situation but the gift was from her grandfather, and a 40 year old watch. Would that still be taxable?

In a strictly legal sense, yes. As it’s coming into the country for the first time and being used there.

As I mentioned previously, say for instance you have 40 year old Daytona you have full intentions of flipping. See how it’s a grey area?



Also, customs in most countries have the authority to go by market value if you can’t produce a receipt. So if you’re bringing your sparkly new Daytona in from Italy? They can charge you tax on what Chrono24 is showing, not MSRP.

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by dmash

Also, customs in most countries have the authority to go by market value if you can’t produce a receipt. So if you’re bringing your sparkly new Daytona in from Italy? They can charge you tax on what Chrono24 is showing, not MSRP.

That would be ridiculous. When has Chrono24 became the official price guide?

This reminds me of something else. Soccer teams are using a website called transfermarkt to evaluate a player and set a price in their negotiations. They don't use their own common sense, market sources, team, ... anymore (well obviously they do, but it's a mix) but they also use this website to quickly check how much a player is worth or should be worth buying and selling.

It's easy to alter these numbers if you are the one in control of the website. So change all the listed values and add 5 million euro, look what happens to the actual transfermarket and how much clubs are paying.

[Cru Jones]

Tips based on this thread if one travels with an expensive watch:

* have a receipt handy
* don't say it's a gift for someone residing in the destination
* better to not travel with box/papers
* better to not travel with multiple expensive watches
* declare significant foreign purchases when returning

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by dmash

In a strictly legal sense, yes. As it’s coming into the country for the first time and being used there.

As I mentioned previously, say for instance you have 40 year old Daytona you have full intentions of flipping. See how it’s a grey area?



Also, customs in most countries have the authority to go by market value if you can’t produce a receipt. So if you’re bringing your sparkly new Daytona in from Italy? They can charge you tax on what Chrono24 is showing, not MSRP.

Interesting information to say the least

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by dmash

In a strictly legal sense, yes. As it’s coming into the country for the first time and being used there.

As I mentioned previously, say for instance you have 40 year old Daytona you have full intentions of flipping. See how it’s a grey area?



Also, customs in most countries have the authority to go by market value if you can’t produce a receipt. So if you’re bringing your sparkly new Daytona in from Italy? They can charge you tax on what Chrono24 is showing, not MSRP.

Just so we are clear on this. I fall in love with a German citizen here visiting the United States. I asked her to marry me and she says yes. I then buy her a $20,000 diamond engagement ring and put it on her finger. We fly back to Germany all excited to tell her parents about it and get stopped by “the Zoll”. They see the ring and ask about it. We mistakenly say we just got engaged. I then have to pay a 19% welcome to Germany tax on it right?

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

That would be ridiculous. When has Chrono24 became the official price guide?

This reminds me of something else. Soccer teams are using a website called transfermarkt to evaluate a player and set a price in their negotiations. They don't use their own common sense, market sources, team, ... anymore (well obviously they do, but it's a mix) but they also use this website to quickly check how much a player is worth or should be worth buying and selling.

It's easy to alter these numbers if you are the one in control of the website. So change all the listed values and add 5 million euro, look what happens to the actual transfermarket and how much clubs are paying.

Zoll in Germany used eBay completed auctions on shoes before I brought in. They can use anything they deem ‘market price’.

Again, you guys keep saying ridiculous and absurd, but this isn’t something new. It’s always been this way and technically speaking, you’ve just been lucky if you got your goods in without paying tax when it was necessary.


Another side note as a lot of you have this. If you have Global Entry and try to get your goods in without declaring and they catch you....not only will you pay to import them and pay the fine for not declaring properly, there’s a good chance they’ll take away your Global Entry privileges and can ban you for life from re-applying.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Tips based on this thread if one travels with an expensive watch:

* have a receipt handy
* don't say it's a gift for someone residing in the destination
* better to not travel with box/papers
* better to not travel with multiple expensive watches
* declare significant foreign purchases when returning

Originally Posted by brandrea

Interesting information to say the least

That’s been my only angle with my responses in this thread, just want people to be aware as it seems a lot aren’t!

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Just so we are clear on this. I fall in love with a German citizen here visiting the United States. I asked her to marry me and she says yes. I then buy her a $20,000 diamond engagement ring and put it on her finger. We fly back to Germany all excited to tell her parents about it and get stopped by “the Zoll”. They see the ring and ask about it. We mistakenly say we just got engaged. I then have to pay a 19% welcome to Germany tax on it right?

Correct.

However, you keep pinpointing on Germany and it’s non-sensical.

The inverse works the EXACT same. If I’m German and I ask a visiting American to marry me in Berlin and put a $20k ring on her finger. When we fly back to America to visit her parents, that is her property and she LEGALLY owes tax. Furthermore, she shouldn’t even ‘be stopped’ if you wanted to be proper and accountable and a good citizen. She should be declaring it upon entry and paying to import it without any confrontation. Granted it won’t be 19%, but yes, you most certainly would owe tax as it was bought overseas.

I’m curious if you’ll now comment the US are thieves and this would be extortion like you did if it pertained to other countries. You keep stating you’d always abide by the laws and do the right thing, but it honestly kind of seems you’re trying to skate the fact this is the law in your home country too. Perhaps you are just unaware.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by dmash

That’s been my only angle with my responses in this thread, just want people to be aware as it seems a lot aren’t!

You're being a very good sport and sharing valuable information, thank you.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by dmash

Correct.

However, you keep pinpointing on Germany and it’s non-sensical.

The inverse works the EXACT same. If I’m German and I ask a visiting American to marry me in Berlin and put a $20k ring on her finger. When we fly back to America to visit her parents, that is her property and she LEGALLY owes tax. Furthermore, she shouldn’t even ‘be stopped’ if you wanted to be proper and accountable and a good citizen. She should be declaring it upon entry and paying to import it without any confrontation. Granted it won’t be 19%, but yes, you most certainly would owe tax as it was bought overseas.

I’m curious if you’ll now comment the US are thieves and this would be extortion like you did if it pertained to other countries. You keep stating you’d always abide by the laws and do the right thing, but it honestly kind of seems you’re trying to skate the fact this is the law in your home country too. Perhaps you are just unaware.

We were talking about Germany. We’re not picking on them they just happen to be the topic of this conversation. I realize the same applies to lots of other countries including the United States and I believe I said that earlier. I also believe it’s not 19% entering the US but I could be wrong. I happen to have many friends from Germany and love that country and the history of it so please don’t accuse me of disrespecting Germany. You didn’t actually say that but I think you might feel that way. I am against these incredibly offensive taxes however. 19%? For what? Saying hello and welcome? But that’s a different discussion. I’m also against this poor gentleman having to pay that tax because he got flustered and miss spoke. That’s just stupid. That would be like you coming around the corner and a police officer asking you if you had just robbed the bank who’s alarm is going off and you mistakingly say yes and then they arrest you for it and put you in prison for it. The whole time you just thought he said, “did you see the bank?” Why should someone pay a penalty for misspeaking?

I suppose we can discuss the insanity of 19% tax in some other thread. This thread was about whether or not it was ethical for those custom agents to charge the OP. After all these pages that I still say it wasn’t.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by dmash

Correct.

However, you keep pinpointing on Germany and it’s non-sensical.

The inverse works the EXACT same. If I’m German and I ask a visiting American to marry me in Berlin and put a $20k ring on her finger. When we fly back to America to visit her parents, that is her property and she LEGALLY owes tax. Furthermore, she shouldn’t even ‘be stopped’ if you wanted to be proper and accountable and a good citizen. She should be declaring it upon entry and paying to import it without any confrontation. Granted it won’t be 19%, but yes, you most certainly would owe tax as it was bought overseas.

Are you now going to comment that the USA are thieves too? You keep stating you’d always abide by the laws and do the right thing if necessary but it seems you’re trying to skate the fact this is the law in your home country too. Perhaps you are just unaware?

About being stopped there is no discussion, the customs being entered can stop and search/interrogate anyone they choose trying to enter their country. I don’t know if the OP was singling out Germany or not, but using your example it’s still ridiculous. The couple enters the country on a visit, and they must pay a tax of the jewelry they are wearing during that visit!? Nothing but extortion. If they were dealers and were SELLING jewelry in this country then of course they should, but a ring she is going to wear for a two week visit and return with it to her own country!? I am just speechless. If they found incriminating evidence it is a completely different story, for example a watch box and papers in my luggage. But speaking of requiring a receipt, it would seem to me that carrying around a receipt for the watch I wear on my wrist, or the ring I wear on my finger would be more of a red flag, seriously how many of us do that? I am still aghast. I purchased my SkyDweller for international travel, that’s what the watch is made for, now I am being told I can basically be held for extortion, on just the theory that I might be trying to sell the watch on my wrist in the country I am visiting. It is just unbelievable

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Patton250

We were talking about Germany. We’re not picking on them they just happen to be the topic of this conversation. I realize the same applies to lots of other countries including the United States and I believe I said that earlier. I also believe it’s not 19% entering the US but I could be wrong. I happen to have many friends from Germany and love that country and the history of it so please don’t accuse me of disrespecting Germany. You didn’t actually say that but I think you might feel that way. I am against these incredibly offensive taxes however. 19%? For what? Saying hello and welcome? But that’s a different discussion. I’m also against this poor gentleman having to pay that tax because he got flustered and miss spoke. That’s just stupid. That would be like you coming around the corner and a police officer asking you if you had just robbed the bank who’s alarm is going off and you mistakingly say yes and then they arrest you for it and put you in prison for it. The whole time you just thought he said, “did you see the bank?” Why should someone pay a penalty for misspeaking?

I suppose we can discuss the insanity of 19% tax in some other thread. This thread was about whether or not it was ethical for those custom agents to charge the OP. After all these pages that I still say it wasn’t.

That’s fine, but you just continue responding different scenarios and comments relaying the exact same thing ‘you don’t agree with the customs officer doing his job based on the information OP gave them’. We get it, not necessary to continue repeating it or asking about a situation for you to comment again ‘I don’t agree with that law and that’s my opinion ’.

I’m not accusing you of disliking Germany it’s just your continued posting about their policies come across that way.

Familiarize yourself with import rates on some US goods, they’re above 19%. It’s not for ‘hello and welcome’ it’s usually due to trade agreements and other things

[dmash]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

About being stopped there is no discussion, the customs being entered can stop and search/interrogate anyone they choose trying to enter their country. I don’t know if the OP was singling out Germany or not, but using your example it’s still ridiculous. The couple enters the country on a visit, and they must pay a tax of the jewelry they are wearing during that visit!? Nothing but extortion. If they were dealers and were SELLING jewelry in this country then of course they should, but a ring she is going to wear for a two week visit and return with it to her own country!? I am just speechless. If they found incriminating evidence it is a completely different story, for example a watch box and papers in my luggage. But speaking of requiring a receipt, it would seem to me that carrying around a receipt for the watch I wear on my wrist, or the ring I wear on my finger would be more of a red flag, seriously how many of us do that? I am still aghast. I purchased my SkyDweller for international travel, that’s what the watch is made for, now I am being told I can basically be held for extortion, on just the theory that I might be trying to sell the watch on my wrist in the country I am visiting. It is just unbelievable

You’re not understanding my post. The ring wearer would be a US citizen visiting Germany. She then returns home where she resides in America. She is legally required to declare that item I bought for her while she was visiting Germany as she is returning home.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by dmash

That’s fine, but you just continue responding different scenarios and comments relaying the exact same thing ‘you don’t agree with the customs officer doing his job based on the information OP gave them’. We get it, not necessary to continue repeating it or asking about a situation for you to comment again ‘I don’t agree with that law and that’s my opinion ’.

I’m not accusing you of disliking Germany it’s just your continued posting about their policies come across that way.

Familiarize yourself with import rates on some US goods, they’re above 19%. It’s not for ‘hello and welcome’ it’s usually due to trade agreements and other things

Imports on products is completely different than some individual citizen with a watch or a ring. But fine.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Imports on products is completely different than some individual citizen with a watch or a ring. But fine.

No offense but you kind of don’t know what you’re talking about, it’s literally the exact same. What do you think you’re paying for when you declare something at the border or at airport customs or on an incoming package? To import it for use in that country. And that can utilize different rates based on the origin/product material, a variety of factors.

When you import let’s say a SINGLE Patek Calatrava from an overseas grey dealer, a leather strap is taxed different than a gold case, etc etc etc.






A very simplistic way for you (and others) to understand this would be the following. If you buy a luxury watch overseas or are gifted a luxury watch overseas it’s essentially the EXACT same as you ordering from Chrono24 from that same overseas location. The box will be declared for a certain amount (if did legally) and you will be responsible for paying to import it into the US before you receive the package. In the first scenario, you should just be declaring on arrival back to the US and pay to import it there. If you don’t say anything and just walked through customs, you 1. Got lucky and 2. Actually broke the law

[77T]

Originally Posted by daveathall

He wasn't made to pay duty on the watch he was wearing. They were made to pay duty on the watch that he said he gave to his fiancé as a gift who was a national and resident of that country. Wouldn't that be the same in any other country.

I would be interested to hear from anyone who returned to their own country with a high price watch and when asked by customs where they got it? Said "it was a gift" and the customs charges were waived.

It seems that people are misunderstanding the op or are not reading what was said.

You have summarized it in a nutshell. Too many others have become mired in hypotheticals and maybe bias and not understood the underlying reasons customs people handle each case the way they do.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by dmash

No offense but you kind of don’t know what you’re talking about, it’s literally the exact same. What do you think you’re paying for when you declare something at the border or at airport customs or on an incoming package? To import it for use in that country. And that can utilize different rates based on the origin/product material, a variety of factors.

When you import let’s say a SINGLE Patek Calatrava from an overseas grey dealer, a leather strap is taxed different than a gold case, etc etc etc.

Listen my friend I’m not going to argue with you anymore. I think the moral to the story is you’re taking a chance if you wear anything of value while entering any country. It’s up to the customs agents (of ANY country)whether or not they want to pick on you even it’s following their laws or not. Seems to be random and unpredictable and those two facts scare the crap out of me. I have enjoyed the discussion and I’ve learned a lot. I appreciate your input on everything.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Listen my friend I’m not going to argue with you anymore. I think the moral to the story is you’re taking a chance if you wear anything of value while entering any country. It’s up to the customs agents (of ANY country)whether or not they want to pick on you even it’s following their laws or not. Seems to be random and unpredictable and those two facts scare the crap out of me. I have enjoyed the discussion and I’ve learned a lot. I appreciate your input on everything.

I’m not trying to argue whatsoever I’m just correcting your statements because they’re wrong at times. In no way trying to offend you or be rude, just give accurate info for others reading

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by dmash

I’m not trying to argue whatsoever I’m just correcting your statements because they’re wrong at times. In no way trying to offend you or be rude, just give accurate info for others reading

Not one point in time did I think you were offensive or rude. In fact I enjoyed the conversation. I’m glad they kept the thread open. Also it doesn’t bother me to be wrong, apparently I’m wrong quite often if you ask my wife.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Not one point in time did I think you were offensive or rude. In fact I enjoyed the conversation. I’m glad they kept the thread open. Also it doesn’t bother me to be wrong, apparently I’m wrong quite often if you ask my wife.

If you ask my wife I’m ALWAYS wrong

[Razorsedge1]

Welcome to Germany! Best to travel with one older watch.

[vh2k]

For U.S. citizens traveling abroad...

To avoid confusion, you might want to register certain items with U.S. Customs before you leave the United States—that way you can prove that you owned an item before you left. This is particularly worth considering for expensive foreign-made items like laptops or watches. You can register the items at the nearest CBP office or at the international airport from which you are departing—just request a Certificate of Registration (CBP Form 4457) and have the items (including serial numbers) handy.

https://www.cbp.gov/document/forms/f...s-taken-abroad

[pickettt]

It keeps coming up that the OP misspoke and said it was a gift. If you read back, that is NOT what happened (as it is told...I don’t know, I wasn’t there). What seems to have happened is the OP said it was his and she was wearing it. The customs agent declared it was a gift. Ultimately, the OP agreed to, “if you say so.” Perhaps there is a language barrier or cultural difference as to what constitutes a gift?

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by vh2k

For U.S. citizens traveling abroad...

To avoid confusion, you might want to register certain items with U.S. Customs before you leave the United States—that way you can prove that you owned an item before you left. This is particularly worth considering for expensive foreign-made items like laptops or watches. You can register the items at the nearest CBP office or at the international airport from which you are departing—just request a Certificate of Registration (CBP Form 4457) and have the items (including serial numbers) handy.

https://www.cbp.gov/document/forms/f...s-taken-abroad

In this case it would have been prudent to make sure the watch was registered to the right person.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by pickettt

It keeps coming up that the OP misspoke and said it was a gift. If you read back, that is NOT what happened (as it is told...I don’t know, I wasn’t there). What seems to have happened is the OP said it was his and she was wearing it. The customs agent declared it was a gift. Ultimately, the OP agreed to, “if you say so.” Perhaps there is a language barrier or cultural difference as to what constitutes a gift?

The OP has confirmed multiple times (as well as stated in the original post) that he told them it was a gift. Not sure how you’re misunderstanding that point.

[guffyboy92]

To clarify again: I specified that the watch was mine, was purchased in 2016 in the US and that I let my fiancee wear it because she is my fiancee and I share things with her.

In my mind, this is common practice amongst collectors to let their SO's wear their watches for indefinite amounts of time out of love. However, in the mind of the Zoll officers, that was identical to me giving it to her as a gift, and when they concluded that it was a gift, I essentially said, "Yes you can say that", because it did not occur to me then and there that using that word or agreeing with that conclusion would incriminate me for a taxable offence and would essentially be indicting myself. Next time, I'll make sure to travel with my lawyer on vacation!

Great discussion here, thank you for all participating, I've learned a great deal for the future and now understand the scenario with much more clarity

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by guffyboy92

To add some facts to the situation. No, unfortunately I did not correct myself and change my story, saying that it was in fact my watch then and there. The reason why I didn't was because to me, it would have seemed extremely suspicious to change my story mid-situation, after being told that I was going to be taxed. Likely, the officer would have thought I was just lying flat out about the whole scenario and I didn't want any trouble. At least that is what I was thinking in my mind. I am not a tax lawyer, nor am I familiar with import taxes in the EU having never lived there for longer than a few months.

To clarify, this is how the conversation went along the lines of:

Zoll: "Where did she get this watch?"
Me: "It's my watch, I bought it in the US in 2016, but she's using it now".
Zoll: "So it was a gift
Me: "Yes you could say that."
Zoll: "Come with us please"


Oh well, I never expected that that answer would have led to what happened. Lesson learned.

Originally Posted by dmash

The OP has confirmed multiple times (as well as stated in the original post) that he told them it was a gift. Not sure how you’re misunderstanding that point.

This is the dialogue I’m referring to.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by dmash

If you ask my wife I’m ALWAYS wrong

The last time I was wrong was 1967.