Another New Grönefeld?

[thekman]

Buddy got quoted a late 2027 delivery. He is obviously passing. Kind of ridiculous to wait 5 years for a watch with a big downpayment. I don't care who is making it.

[JR16]

Originally Posted by thekman

Buddy got quoted a late 2027 delivery. He is obviously passing. Kind of ridiculous to wait 5 years for a watch with a big downpayment. I don't care who is making it.

Agree. It’s basically an interest free bank loan at that time frame .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[dchang81]

Originally Posted by thekman

Buddy got quoted a late 2027 delivery. He is obviously passing. Kind of ridiculous to wait 5 years for a watch with a big downpayment. I don't care who is making it.

What about voutilainen? Then again it would be exactly how I want it

[Pdg]

Originally Posted by dchang81

What about voutilainen? Then again it would be exactly how I want it

I think there are a few differences, I also didn’t think Voutilainen was on a 5 year wait. My two biggest differences:

1) you get exactly what you want with Kari
2) it feels like Gronefeld is continuing to release more products without being able to meet current demand. Kari might be doing that too, but it doesn’t seem that way (or maybe I haven’t kept up with what is going on). It is a bit tough to have the principia orders shutdown, release a $150k chronograph (with long wait time and now closed order) and then quickly turn around with this and quote 4-5 year waits. It’s fine if they are just pulling forward a lot of demand anyway, but I think for those waiting for a time piece it seems like the efforts are being put into new products without being able to meet current demand. I also think you lose momentum when you throw out a $150k watch that you can’t get for years.

I understand trying to take advantage of the environment, it makes a lot of sense. I just can’t get myself to get excited about something like this (especially with the wait).

[dchang81]

Kari got backed up, number of orders exploded and with the relaunch of UJ not sure specific timelines was told not to realistically expect it for 4-5 years. I didn't proceed because of that. The deltaworks 5 year wait I was quoted actually made me think I'd much rather do the voutilainen custom order than that.

[Pdg]

Originally Posted by dchang81

Kari got backed up, number of orders exploded and with the relaunch of UJ not sure specific timelines was told not to realistically expect it for 4-5 years. I didn't proceed because of that. The deltaworks 5 year wait I was quoted actually made me think I'd much rather do the voutilainen custom order than that.

Interesting, I didn’t realize it was that long of a wait. I think I waited 5-6 months (can’t remember now) for my allocation and then 9-10 months for the build. I can also see how people could think the UJ project is taking away from KV’s focus (although I wouldn’t think so, but the perception could be there).

[enjoythemusic]

Echoing others, Kari is VERY custom and lots of handcrafting. For something more modest, there's also Torsti Laine. Personally, I love how many great independents there are, all of them. It wasn't like this in 1995, or 2005....

[thekman]

Originally Posted by dchang81

What about voutilainen? Then again it would be exactly how I want it

As others have said at least with Kari it's your own piece unique. I think it also depends on your financial situation and your own tastes and wether they tend to change.

I can't guarantee that I would be interested in any watch in 5 years. I also wouldn't tie up so much money for such an extended period of time. For some people these are not deal breakers.

I actually had an opportunity to get an LM101 last year. Delivery was promised in 2-2.5 years with a 50% downpayment but I could not go through with it as it felt like an eternity.

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by dchang81

What about voutilainen? Then again it would be exactly how I want it

I'm not thrilled with Kari's 30% deposit either but I'm okay with it. No offense to Gronefeld but I don't see those as comparable.

[ChetBaker]

I did say they jumped the shark. And that was before we knew about lead times and deposit. This is the interest-free bank loan any entrepreneur will dream off while putting all the risk of your operations on your customers. Seems like some of these independents have lost touch with reality.

[Watchristic]

Am I the only one who doesn’t like the delta


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by thekman

I actually had an opportunity to get an LM101 last year. Delivery was promised in 2-2.5 years with a 50% downpayment but I could not go through with it as it felt like an eternity.

Hmmmm... in November 2021 WoS was 10% down and ~1.4 year wait for the LM101 Willy Wonka. Hoping she arrives March 2023

I think WoS max down payment is 10% so that is far more reasonable imho.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Hmmmm... in November 2021 WoS was 10% down and ~1.4 year wait for the LM101 Willy Wonka. Hoping she arrives March 2023

I think WoS max down payment is 10% so that is far more reasonable imho.

I think he’s referencing the wait for SS. I too was quoted like 6-12 months with 50% down direct with MBF. Now It’s just much different of course.

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by Watchristic

Am I the only one who doesn’t like the delta


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You’re definitely not alone in feeling that way. I feel like it’s a step backwards for the brand. It’s just very boring to me. I really want a Principia but they aren’t taking any new orders and I find it frustrating that part of the reason for that is so they could focus on the DeltaWorks.

[thekman]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Hmmmm... in November 2021 WoS was 10% down and ~1.4 year wait for the LM101 Willy Wonka. Hoping she arrives March 2023

I think WoS max down payment is 10% so that is far more reasonable imho.

I wish I went through WoS at the time. As GB-Man mentioned I had asked MB&F directly and was quoted a 2-2.5 year wait with 50% down for steel. I still love the watch but couldn't tie up so much money for 2.5 years. I would have 100% done it if they had asked for 10%.

[startrolexendrolex]

With the new exchange rate, this watch just got cheaper?

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by startrolexendrolex

With the new exchange rate, this watch just got cheaper?

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk

Ironically the rate is exactly the same today as the day this thread was started…parity to USD anyways.

[jcarm981]

Has anybody had an order confirmed with a reasonable delivery date on the DeltaWorks? Sounded like a lot of folks bailed after the long wait time.

[Bloomberg]

I want to highlight something.
By paying 30% of a big amount to a small company and waiting 5 years, you are facing a default risk.
We are in recession and 2023 will be difficult.
If they make default, you will not get your money neither your watch.

[sgrossma]

That is true, however they have a confirmed order book with revenue for at least a few years, probably 3-4, and I presume they are making money so I don't think they will have any issues as long as they keep making watches. They don't make that many watches, and even with hard times, I don't think everyone will cancel their orders.

That is not to say they can't pull a disappearing act and vanish for whatever reason. While possible, it also seems unlikely. They have worked to hard for that, I think.

[GB-man]

It’s a non zero risk for sure but my issue was more with the watch itself and waiting 3 years. It’s a really fun piece but not something I was blown away by and willing to wait that long for. Next summer sure but winter 2025 heck no.

[startrolexendrolex]

Still can't order anything on their site, looks like they are covered up with orders.

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk

[sgrossma]

Looks like at some point recently Gronefeld quietly updated the price of the steel Principia from 33.5k euros to just under $37k euros on their website. Still ~13k euros less than the Delta Works.

[startrolexendrolex]

Still a bargain

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk

[chet1022]

didn’t realize Gronefeld was that hot on the market. I ordered another independent and it takes 18 months to deliver which sounds ok considering the handwork and allows me to save up more. But 4-5 years… that is just outrageous.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by chet1022

But 4-5 years… that is just outrageous.

If this was 1999 i'd agree with you Chet. Even in 2005 would agree.

But this is 2023 and a five-year wait for a TRUE independent HAND MADE timepiece from Gronefeld / Kari / etc sounds about right. Hey, there's always the <sarc> 1960s Holy Trinity </sarc> brands, very easy to get those (greys have very deep stock of whatever you desire).

Personally, am hoping to be in a position to commission Kari for a piece in 2023 for who knows when delivery.

[chet1022]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

If this was 1999 i'd agree with you Chet. Even in 2005 would agree.

But this is 2023 and a five-year wait for a TRUE independent HAND MADE timepiece from Gronefeld / Kari / etc sounds about right. Hey, there's always the <sarc> 1960s Holy Trinity </sarc> brands, very easy to get those (greys have very deep stock of whatever you desire).

Personally, am hoping to be in a position to commission Kari for a piece in 2023 for who knows when delivery.

Maybe that is the case for Kari/Gronefeld/Akrivia etc. After all, knowing people are craving for opportunities to pay pre-order money do give confidence to the long wait and there always are rich guys around.

But financially speaking, people are buying watches not planes or vessels that needs installment plans, so either one pay a small portion upfront and get the watch with reasonable wait or just get waitlisted with no down payment imho. I believe there are alternative independents that offers equivalent value to be appreciated.

[enjoythemusic]

Agree Chet. But that is the current situation.

Thankfully there are quite a few alternatives, and 'new kids' some of us are only now becoming aware of. Imho someone desperately needs to produce an online site dedicated to them. Could even feature a few schools / teachers.... A combo of education, celebrations of the craft, and of course the people and their passions.

We live during VERY exciting times during the many facets of horology imho.

PS: Torsti Laine's fine timepieces have a 'reasonable' wait last I heard, and he provides a very customizable auto and manual wind.

PPS: Thankfully there are waitlists to some degree. Horology had some tough times over the decades. Some of these smaller watchmakers truly put in 100% of their heart and soul with complete commitment. Said another way, they live or die by their talent and passion.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

If this was 1999 i'd agree with you Chet. Even in 2005 would agree.

But this is 2023 and a five-year wait for a TRUE independent HAND MADE timepiece from Gronefeld / Kari / etc sounds about right. Hey, there's always the &lt;sarc&gt; 1960s Holy Trinity &lt;/sarc&gt; brands, very easy to get those (greys have very deep stock of whatever you desire).

Personally, am hoping to be in a position to commission Kari for a piece in 2023 for who knows when delivery.

Current delivery date for Kari is 2027. So I guess you may be looking at 2028 if things do not get worse. And add in some expected delay, it can be 2029.

Mine was originally quoted for 1H 2024 when I ordered late 2021, then confirmed for possible 1H 2025 when deposit was made, and now is 2H 2025.

My AD told me he has one piece which came in 10 years after the order was made. But it was a special piece which is a Tourbillion so I guess it was worth the wait. And the price was locked for 10 years which is beyond fair.

[enjoythemusic]

2030 is fine. Gosh, you guys and instant gratification.


Ok, not so instant but I remember Kari back around 2000 so on TZ... it's been over 20 years. What's another 7 or 8 in the scheme of things?

Look fwd to your wrist pics, bravo!