Anyone paying big money for a vintage Daytona needs to have their heads checked

[swish77]

Originally Posted by rootbeer7

The fact is until Rolex can or will corroborate any item that left its factory; it's largely conjecture and myth that makes the rules. It's just whether you choose to believe it. For years I understand that Paul Newman Daytona Oyster cases were thought to be Frankens. Tread carefully.

Rolex does do this, in a way. Take a watch to an RSC for an evaluation/service estimate, and if something's not right, they'll refuse to service the watch. They'll verify everything is what it's supposed to be (real vs. fake/altered parts), and also verify the movement serial number is correct for the case serial number and hasn't been swapped.

I'm not saying that RSCs can't ever make mistakes when identifying a watch and its parts. However, it certainly helps a lot when you get that Rolex stamp of approval with RSC paperwork for a full service or just a parts replacement (bezel insert, bracelet, etc... ).

[greekbum]

there are very high quality parts being made for these in the last few years. Parts so good that you won’t get a clear answer if real or fake from anybody. I’ve seen them cases pushers and movement parts. It’s imho the riskiest game in town.

[jfmiii]

Originally Posted by greekbum

there are very high quality parts being made for these in the last few years. Parts so good that you won’t get a clear answer if real or fake from anybody. I’ve seen them cases pushers and movement parts. It’s imho the riskiest game in town.

this x1000. id love to post some pictures but think id be violating a few rules.

ive read about forgers laser measuring real daytona cases, making 1:1 copies. they take authentic rolex pushers, bezels, etc. fake parts to make a V72 out of say a Wittnauer into a 727; and the font on the bridge, etc is an exact match. throw a real service dial on it and you have a $10k fake watch that will sell for $50k+ to someone who is none the wiser.

though, with how good theyve gotten with the dials, im not sure it worth spending $4-5k on a service dial. the Mayer dials were created 25-30 years ago and forgers have only gotten better with technology.

i guess on the bright side, for those us who cant afford a 62xx, you can spend about $5k and have watch with all fake parts (including a converted 72 into a 727) that will fool 99.9% of collectors.

[DaveDhc]

I only collect 1950s Rolex watches. I bought mine a few years ago. At this point in time, with how good the fakes have gotten, I will no longer purchase Rolex vintage. I wouldn't want a nagging concern about authenticity that couldn't be answered. So for me, the forgers have killed the vintage Rolex market.

Not only have they ruined the vintage market in the sense of adding to my collection, but I suspect that the way things are going, they are going to effectively kill the value of the watches if one were inclined to sell. Of course there are always those who are will to essentially throw their money away, so there will always be a market of sorts. But for serious collectors, purchasing a vintage without papers leaves you with a watch that you have no way of determining if its real or a fake.

[iLLGT2]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

this x1000. id love to post some pictures but think id be violating a few rules.

ive read about forgers laser measuring real daytona cases, making 1:1 copies. they take authentic rolex pushers, bezels, etc. fake parts to make a V72 out of say a Wittnauer into a 727; and the font on the bridge, etc is an exact match. throw a real service dial on it and you have a $10k fake watch that will sell for $50k+ to someone who is none the wiser.

though, with how good theyve gotten with the dials, im not sure it worth spending $4-5k on a service dial. the Mayer dials were created 25-30 years ago and forgers have only gotten better with technology.

i guess on the bright side, for those us who cant afford a 62xx, you can spend about $5k and have watch with all fake parts (including a converted 72 into a 727) that will fool 99.9% of collectors.

that is absolutely wild

[79280_116520]

Originally Posted by DaveDhc

Not only have they ruined the vintage market in the sense of adding to my collection, but I suspect that the way things are going, they are going to effectively kill the value of the watches if one were inclined to sell. Of course there are always those who are will to essentially throw their money away, so there will always be a market of sorts. But for serious collectors, purchasing a vintage without papers leaves you with a watch that you have no way of determining if its real or a fake.

Greed, a lack of record keeping transparency by Rolex and social media hype driven by speculating watch dealers has caused all this to happen. Given that the newbie collectors aren't very diligent in doing their own due diligence, the ones with money gets hit the hardest since they treat everything that they read online as fact.

The Ultimate Daytona auction will be interesting since Perezcope has now dedicated himself to the infamous PN Daytonas. I wonder how many so-called PNs will be pulled from the upcoming auction.

[thomaspp]

I certainly need to have my head checked :)


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[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by swish77

Rolex does do this, in a way. Take a watch to an RSC for an evaluation/service estimate, and if something's not right, they'll refuse to service the watch. They'll verify everything is what it's supposed to be (real vs. fake/altered parts), and also verify the movement serial number is correct for the case serial number and hasn't been swapped.

I'm not saying that RSCs can't ever make mistakes when identifying a watch and its parts. However, it certainly helps a lot when you get that Rolex stamp of approval with RSC paperwork for a full service or just a parts replacement (bezel insert, bracelet, etc... ).

I agree, but would they corroborate the exact dial?

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

I certainly need to have my head checked :)


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To be honest, you might as well send them to me as they're probably no good

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by rootbeer7

To be honest, you might as well send them to me as they're probably no good

+1 absolute rubbish watches

[semi-ambivalent]

Originally Posted by onthedial

@swish77 (Aaron),

Great comments!
I'll chime in to say: In the past a buyer’s premium was associated with the thorough research an auction house conducted to verify the authenticity of each item to be sold. Buyers were willing to pay a premium on top of the hammer price (25%, 30%...) because the house had made transparent it's findings in the form of a condition report...an important service for the collector of high-end collectibles.

It's only recently that we've seen huge amounts of money being spent by the big auction houses to market the featured items in any given sale. Case in point is the recent sale of "Salvator Mundi" at Christie's. The amount of $ dolled out to woo would-be buyers was mind boggling. And, given the fact that the painting may not be an authentic Da Vinci is even more astonishing in that a buyer dished out over $450 million dollars for what might only be an asterisk.

Sadly, it seems that the norm for the big auction houses is to syphon money away from research and into lavish marketing campaigns.
_____________
Instagram: @onthedial

Good points all. The auction market for watches is white hot and 'Paul Newmans' seem to be the hottest. Then there's that Da Vinci. And a few million dollar Leicas. Maybe times are good but I think it's just the final run-up to collapse and a reset. Phillips is having a big auction this month featuring just Daytonas. Pick up the low hanging fruit around $5M . Make the money while it's still being thrown around...
About the above watch I can't speak but, not (apparently) to have even checked the serial number? Just how is that explained away? Auctions too have their rock stars.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by semi-ambivalent

Good points all. The auction market for watches is white hot and 'Paul Newmans' seem to be the hottest. Then there's that Da Vinci. And a few million dollar Leicas. Maybe times are good but I think it's just the final run-up to collapse and a reset. Phillips is having a big auction this month featuring just Daytonas. Pick up the low hanging fruit around $5M . Make the money while it's still being thrown around...
About the above watch I can't speak but, not (apparently) to have even checked the serial number? Just how is that explained away? Auctions too have their rock stars.

The Phillips Daytona themed auction is in May together with the usual Geneva auctions. Nothing different from the Heuer sale last year. Who is surprised that they are optimists? They are just feeding the market what the market wants. Can’t really see the problem in that.

[semi-ambivalent]

Originally Posted by roh123

The Phillips Daytona themed auction is in May together with the usual Geneva auctions. Nothing different from the Heuer sale last year. Who is surprised that they are optimists? They are just feeding the market what the market wants. Can’t really see the problem in that.

I don't see a problem in that (optimism) either. I see a problem in the bidding arc. Call it prophecy if you'd like. Time will tell, and I'm an optimist too believe it or not.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

this x1000. id love to post some pictures but think id be violating a few rules.

ive read about forgers laser measuring real daytona cases, making 1:1 copies. they take authentic rolex pushers, bezels, etc. fake parts to make a V72 out of say a Wittnauer into a 727; and the font on the bridge, etc is an exact match. throw a real service dial on it and you have a $10k fake watch that will sell for $50k+ to someone who is none the wiser.

Take this watch you describe into a Rolex Service Center, and I'd bet they'd be able to tell it's a fake/Frankenwatch. For starters, you'd need to be able to get a movement serial number that matches the case serial number.

Also, what about Daytonas that still have the punched (and real) Rolex guarantee paper with the watch's matching serial number? Sure, papers can be faked too, but there are ways to know the good ones from the bad ones.

[locutus49]

Excellent post.

Originally Posted by sensui

Yeah.....I kinda knew the topic would be brought up one way or another after reading the IG posts.

There is so much stupid money involved with the vintage Rolex market today so this type of shenanigan/fraud shouldn't come as a surprise....to most guys that's been in the hobby for many years it's not news. Reputable sellers are a great start but I always take that with a grain of salt when it comes to vintage also because:

1) As one of my close big vintage collector buddies reminds me all the time....it doesn't take a PHD to become a watch dealer.

2) A lot of these sellers these days are fairly new to the game.....not coincidental as the scene blew up with social media and everyone and their grandma's friends became a dealer suddenly.

I've met and talked to many knowledgeable vintage guys that's been around for decades....and I tend to trust their information/opinion more than a trusted seller that's been around the last 3-5 years in the vintage scene. With no fault to the sellers sometimes either because it's such a deep game and there are just so many nuances/details that things can easily go amiss....so a lot of times these mistakes aren't intentional.

This is why when I finally decided to jump for my 4 digit Daytona, after vetting the watch with vintage guys that's been around for decades....I immediately had it dissected with my CW21 watchmaker that's been doing this for over 30-40 years to inspect/authenticate everything inside and out to make sure it's good.....not to mention my own research into the subject.

The best advice I can give always is to do your own research and learn learn learn.....perfect way to use the time while you're hunting down the exact watch. I think most of the guys paying big money to the big auction houses/big time dealers for vintage doesn't inspect the details so even if there was something wrong, they'd never know it anyway.....and I'm sure some of these dealers/auction houses prey on this.

P.S. And yeah.....I don't think it's realistic to expect complete originality on vintage pieces these days.....sure it'd be nice but there's absolutely almost no way short of you knowing for a fact the watch had 1 owner and it's never been serviced/touched. Correctness is just fine in my books as a collector.