Anyone paying big money for a vintage Daytona needs to have their heads checked

[jfmiii]

Between the EXTREMELY accurate fake parts/dials being manufactured and occurrences like this, who can determine what is real and what isnt.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdfQmVsl...n-by=perezcope

[swish77]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

Between the EXTREMELY accurate fake parts/dials being manufactured and occurrences like this, who can determine what is real and what isnt.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdfQmVsl...n-by=perezcope

No different than any other high-end vintage watches. There are tons of faked, altered, and/or Frankenwatches out there. This ain't new, and that auction was in 2015.

We all need to be extremely careful with all vintage Rolex purchases, no matter the reference, although the stakes are certainly higher with Daytonas. If you do your homework and trust the seller, there are ways to make sure you're buying a good watch. I wont' allow the fakers and unscrupulous sellers to ruin this hobby for me.

[DLRIDES]

For this to happen to some of the most trusted in the business, is very telling as to the depth of fraud.
But it is no different than any other valuable collectibles.

The extent of fraud taken on collector cars is astounding!

[jfmiii]

Originally Posted by swish77

No different than any other high-end vintage watches. There are tons of faked, altered, and/or Frankenwatches out there. This ain't new, and that auction was in 2015.

We all need to be extremely careful with all vintage Rolex purchases, no matter the reference, although the stakes are certainly higher with Daytonas. If you do your homework and trust the seller, there are ways to make sure you're buying a good watch. I wont' allow the fakers and unscrupulous sellers to ruin this hobby for me.

when "unscrupulous sellers" include the most prominent auction house in the world, how can "trust the seller" be adequate protection? this watch sold at Antiquorum as a non-solo Daytona in 2011. Had Phillips merely googled the serial number before including it in their auction, they would have noticed what they were preparing to sell wasnt legitimate. That makes this either a case of gross negligence or outright fraud by an auction house that just sold a watch for $15mm whose value is solely based on the provenance attached to it.

[roh123]

This is nothing new and really not worse with Daytonas. You see it anywhere it makes sense. Check the FAP SM300 sold in November as a non-rolex example. Another example was the 1675 Tiffany gilt from a well-known Italian collector a year or two ago.

The good thing with todays world is that it is more difficult as more and more watches are shared online. Of course only a fraction gets caught but it at least makes it possible to catch. You really need to be careful and know your stuff if you go for ultra rare configurations which are difficult to authenticate. For more standard pieces where you have references a good eye and basic knowledge will help you a long way.

[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

when "unscrupulous sellers" include the most prominent auction house in the world, how can "trust the seller" be adequate protection? this watch sold at Antiquorum as a non-solo Daytona in 2011. Had Phillips merely googled the serial number before including it in their auction, they would have noticed what they were preparing to sell wasnt legitimate. That makes this either a case of gross negligence or outright fraud by an auction house that just sold a watch for $15mm whose value is solely based on the provenance attached to it.

Hammer meets nail !

[swish77]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

when "unscrupulous sellers" include the most prominent auction house in the world, how can "trust the seller" be adequate protection? this watch sold at Antiquorum as a non-solo Daytona in 2011. Had Phillips merely googled the serial number before including it in their auction, they would have noticed what they were preparing to sell wasnt legitimate. That makes this either a case of gross negligence or outright fraud by an auction house that just sold a watch for $15mm whose value is solely based on the provenance attached to it.

I work with Phillips in the photo art world. They make mistakes all of the time, as does Christies and Sothebys, with whom I also work. They're all not much different than a fancy eBay, IMHO.

As in all purchases, the buyer needs to do tons of research. I would never, ever blindly trust any seller when handing over a lot of money, including very trusted sellers of vintage Rolexes who post on this forum and elsewhere. They make mistakes too.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

when "unscrupulous sellers" include the most prominent auction house in the world, how can "trust the seller" be adequate protection? this watch sold at Antiquorum as a non-solo Daytona in 2011. Had Phillips merely googled the serial number before including it in their auction, they would have noticed what they were preparing to sell wasnt legitimate. That makes this either a case of gross negligence or outright fraud by an auction house that just sold a watch for $15mm whose value is solely based on the provenance attached to it.

Same issue with this FAP Omega SM300. Phillips really should have searched the serial to see how it was a totally put-together piece. Really not an acceptable mistake to be honest. Of course they have an agenda to make money so I wouldn't be surprised if they knew. Especially as I believe the seller in that case was a world reknown dealer that probably also helps consult Phillips on other pieces.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/2913...uckling.66523/

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by swish77

I work with Phillips in the photo art world. They make mistakes all of the time, as does Christies and Sothebys, with whom I also work. They're all not much different than a fancy eBay, IMHO.

As in all purchases, the buyer needs to do tons of research. I would never, ever blindly trust any seller when handing over a lot of money, including very trusted sellers of vintage Rolexes who post on this forum and elsewhere. They make mistakes too.

x2

[jfmiii]

Originally Posted by roh123

Same issue with this FAP Omega SM300. Phillips really should have searched the serial to see how it was a totally put-together piece. Really not an acceptable mistake to be honest. Of course they have an agenda to make money so I wouldn't be surprised if they knew. Especially as I believe the seller in that case was a world reknown dealer that probably also helps consult Phillips on other pieces.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/2913...uckling.66523/

thanks for the link. Im on OF but didnt see that thread. I agree with you that this is nothing new. but you have highlighted another case where it the auction house did absolutely zero research into the piece that they were selling and, as it turns out, misrepresenting. my concern is that this is the tip of the iceberg and there are countless other watches that have been sold that arent what they were represented as. if that is the case, how can the benchmarks against which these watches are valued be trusted?

[jfmiii]

Originally Posted by swish77

I work with Phillips in the photo art world. They make mistakes all of the time, as does Christies and Sothebys, with whom I also work. They're all not much different than a fancy eBay, IMHO.

As in all purchases, the buyer needs to do tons of research. I would never, ever blindly trust any seller when handing over a lot of money, including very trusted sellers of vintage Rolexes who post on this forum and elsewhere. They make mistakes too.

that's all fine and good but what exactly are they doing to justify their 25% vig? does bringing together a scammer seller and a naive buyer warrant 25%?

[DLRIDES]

Since the watch as sold in 2011, the serial number was known .................

That’s either an outlandish mistake or pure fraud.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

thanks for the link. Im on OF but didnt see that thread. I agree with you that this is nothing new. but you have highlighted another case where it the auction house did absolutely zero research into the piece that they were selling and, as it turns out, misrepresenting. my concern is that this is the tip of the iceberg and there are countless other watches that have been sold that arent what they were represented as. if that is the case, how can the benchmarks against which these watches are valued be trusted?

Watches are altered and put together all the time. By both collectors and dealers. The market wants perfect and rare watches and that is what the market gets. It is just something we need to be aware of and hopefully we will be able to dodge a bullet or two. I hope that Phillips and other auction houses become more careful moving forward. The biggest issue when they bring in questionable watches is that once they have sold it the watch is basically authenticated forever. Only on rare occassions as Perezcope and the OF thread they get caught.

Phillips and other auction houses are absolutely to blame to some point. The biggest issue is however the people doing the fraud. In the Omega case a lot points to a world class dealer and if we go back 5 years or so we can all remember the Rolex paper fraud with another big dealer. When there is money to be made easily; rest assured it will be..

That being said I think the risk a standard watch (standard as not ultra rare) being altered is low. It is ultra rare examples that is difficult to authenticate where the risk is low and the upside huge for the fraudsters. The bad thing is that many perfect examples of standard references are put together. That is just something I think we will need to accept or just pretend like we don't know. Dials get swapped and hands get changed all the time.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

that's all fine and good but what exactly are they doing to justify their 25% vig? does bringing together a scammer seller and a naive buyer warrant 25%?

They're doing virtually nothing to justify their 25 percent, and that's why I wouldn't buy anything from them unless it was a great deal and I personally had vetted the item and done all of my own homework. I'd pretty much ignore the auction house's description and do my own research.

Just because these auction houses are successful and well known doesn't mean they're without flaws.

[springer]

Originally Posted by roh123

Watches are altered and put together all the time. By both collectors and dealers. The market wants perfect and rare watches and that is what the market gets. It is just something we need to be aware of and hopefully we will be able to dodge a bullet or two. I hope that Phillips and other auction houses become more careful moving forward. The biggest issue when they bring in questionable watches is that once they have sold it the watch is basically authenticated forever. Only on rare occassions as Perezcope and the OF thread they get caught.

Phillips and other auction houses are absolutely to blame to some point. The biggest issue is however the people doing the fraud. In the Omega case a lot points to a world class dealer and if we go back 5 years or so we can all remember the Rolex paper fraud with another big dealer. When there is money to be made easily; rest assured it will be..

That being said I think the risk a standard watch (standard as not ultra rare) being altered is low. It is ultra rare examples that is difficult to authenticate where the risk is low and the upside huge for the fraudsters. The bad thing is that many perfect examples of standard references are put together. That is just something I think we will need to accept or just pretend like we don't know. Dials get swapped and hands get changed all the time.

You lost me with..."Dials get swapped and hands get changed all the time."

I don't see the correlation between selling fraudulent watches and replacing a dial or hand set with a another genuine dial or set of hands.

Fraudulent sales of vintage Daytonas, Subs, military watches, Arabic-dialed watches, Tiffany-dialed watches, all-red hands, fake cases and fake dials are prevalent. Anyone buying one from a "reputable seller" as his his source for authenticating the watch could very possibly be in for a rude awakening someday.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by springer

You lost me with..."Dials get swapped and hands get changed all the time."

I don't see the correlation between selling fraudulent watches and replacing a dial or hand set with a another genuine dial or set of hands.

Fraudulent sales of vintage Daytonas, Subs, military watches, Arabic-dialed watches, Tiffany-dialed watches, all-red hands, fake cases and fake dials are prevalent. Anyone buying one from a "reputable seller" as his his source for authenticating the watch could very possibly be in for a rude awakening someday.

Lots of great watches are put together. Good case here, great dial there etc. Unfortunately I have personal experience on the topic. Feel free to PM me and I can share my experience.

There’s a difference between replacing a service part compared to building a new watch from period correct parts. I do not think it is ok when completely put together watches are sold without that information disclosed. As in the case above with the FAP Omega.

[sensui]

Yeah.....I kinda knew the topic would be brought up one way or another after reading the IG posts.

There is so much stupid money involved with the vintage Rolex market today so this type of shenanigan/fraud shouldn't come as a surprise....to most guys that's been in the hobby for many years it's not news. Reputable sellers are a great start but I always take that with a grain of salt when it comes to vintage also because:

1) As one of my close big vintage collector buddies reminds me all the time....it doesn't take a PHD to become a watch dealer.

2) A lot of these sellers these days are fairly new to the game.....not coincidental as the scene blew up with social media and everyone and their grandma's friends became a dealer suddenly.

I've met and talked to many knowledgeable vintage guys that's been around for decades....and I tend to trust their information/opinion more than a trusted seller that's been around the last 3-5 years in the vintage scene. With no fault to the sellers sometimes either because it's such a deep game and there are just so many nuances/details that things can easily go amiss....so a lot of times these mistakes aren't intentional.

This is why when I finally decided to jump for my 4 digit Daytona, after vetting the watch with vintage guys that's been around for decades....I immediately had it dissected with my CW21 watchmaker that's been doing this for over 30-40 years to inspect/authenticate everything inside and out to make sure it's good.....not to mention my own research into the subject.

The best advice I can give always is to do your own research and learn learn learn.....perfect way to use the time while you're hunting down the exact watch. I think most of the guys paying big money to the big auction houses/big time dealers for vintage doesn't inspect the details so even if there was something wrong, they'd never know it anyway.....and I'm sure some of these dealers/auction houses prey on this.

P.S. And yeah.....I don't think it's realistic to expect complete originality on vintage pieces these days.....sure it'd be nice but there's absolutely almost no way short of you knowing for a fact the watch had 1 owner and it's never been serviced/touched. Correctness is just fine in my books as a collector.

[onthedial]

Originally Posted by swish77

They're doing virtually nothing to justify their 25 percent, and that's why I wouldn't buy anything from them unless it was a great deal and I personally had vetted the item and done all of my own homework. I'd pretty much ignore the auction house's description and do my own research.

Just because these auction houses are successful and well known doesn't mean they're without flaws.

@swish77 (Aaron),

Great comments!
I'll chime in to say: In the past a buyer’s premium was associated with the thorough research an auction house conducted to verify the authenticity of each item to be sold. Buyers were willing to pay a premium on top of the hammer price (25%, 30%...) because the house had made transparent it's findings in the form of a condition report...an important service for the collector of high-end collectibles.

It's only recently that we've seen huge amounts of money being spent by the big auction houses to market the featured items in any given sale. Case in point is the recent sale of "Salvator Mundi" at Christie's. The amount of $ dolled out to woo would-be buyers was mind boggling. And, given the fact that the painting may not be an authentic Da Vinci is even more astonishing in that a buyer dished out over $450 million dollars for what might only be an asterisk.

Sadly, it seems that the norm for the big auction houses is to syphon money away from research and into lavish marketing campaigns.
_____________
Instagram: @onthedial

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by roh123

Lots of great watches are put together. Good case here, great dial there etc. Unfortunately I have personal experience on the topic. Feel free to PM me and I can share my experience.

There’s a difference between replacing a service part compared to building a new watch from period correct parts. I do not think it is ok when completely put together watches are sold without that information disclosed. As in the case above with the FAP Omega.

Agreed

[psv]

Jose is my new hero!

[springer]

Originally Posted by roh123

Lots of great watches are put together. Good case here, great dial there etc. Unfortunately I have personal experience on the topic. Feel free to PM me and I can share my experience.

There’s a difference between replacing a service part compared to building a new watch from period correct parts. I do not think it is ok when completely put together watches are sold without that information disclosed. As in the case above with the FAP Omega.

Of course, I would agree with you then - kind of like those cobbled together blueberry/radial/red hand GMTs.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by springer

Of course, I would agree with you then - kind of like those funny blueberry/radial/red hand GMTs.

Yes. They are a story of their own.

[ILuvSubs]

Thanks for posting and bringing it to the attention of a wider audience. Amazing that so little due diligence was performed by the auction house and those who reported on the watch in question.

[Vincent65]

Same as any old dodgy second-hand car dealer, ref. Swiss Toni on the Fast Show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_4mKBVbsbQ

Disgustingly outrageous commissions and no peace of mind whatsoever. Daylight robbery, dressed up with lots of BS hype and fancy suits. Experts. Yeah, right. Swiss...[Insert Name]

[RC2]

Originally Posted by Vincent65

Same as any old dodgy second-hand car dealer, ref. Swiss Toni on the Fast Show.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_4mKBVbsbQ



Disgustingly outrageous commissions and no peace of mind whatsoever. Daylight robbery, dressed up with lots of BS hype and fancy suits. Experts. Yeah, right. Swiss...[Insert Name]

Agree with you. And the “prototype” watches are another issue don’t believe smells right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jfmiii]

Originally Posted by ILuvSubs

Thanks for posting and bringing it to the attention of a wider audience. Amazing that so little due diligence was performed by the auction house and those who reported on the watch in question.

we all know how dangerous vintage Rolex can be. with the prices (especially Daytonas) where they are, the incentive for crooks to deceive is high. it is a minefield for sure. there has always been rumors about certain dealers or certain watches but when the biggest auction house, with maybe the most prominent Rolex collector in the world as an advisor, gets taken for a ride (and we can debate the circumstances of how this watch made it into an auction), i think it is a wake up call. the problem is bigger than most of imagine. as roh posted above regarding the Omega, this certainly isnt an isolated case. im sure there were, and will be, other watches discovered to be not what experts/auction houses claim that they are.

imo, the proliferation of bad watches making it into high profile auctions, selling for exorbitant sums of money, and turning out to be fake is something that can destroy the entire market. at some point, people wont trust anything and values will crash as a result.

my point in posting the link was not to point fingers or make accusations but to serve as a PSA for all of us to be aware that no matter how much we think we know, the forgers/doctors/etc have gotten so good that it is very easy for even the most knowledgable among us to make a VERY expensive mistake.

[twnturbo]

Looking at that Ig post it looks like Phillips stepped up & resolved the issue ,was that the case ?

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by springer

You lost me with..."Dials get swapped and hands get changed all the time."

I don't see the correlation between selling fraudulent watches and replacing a dial or hand set with a another genuine dial or set of hands.

Fraudulent sales of vintage Daytonas, Subs, military watches, Arabic-dialed watches, Tiffany-dialed watches, all-red hands, fake cases and fake dials are prevalent. Anyone buying one from a "reputable seller" as his his source for authenticating the watch could very possibly be in for a rude awakening someday.

Truth and Common Sense!!!

[rootbeer7]

The fact is until Rolex can or will corroborate any item that left its factory; it's largely conjecture and myth that makes the rules. It's just whether you choose to believe it. For years I understand that Paul Newman Daytona Oyster cases were thought to be Frankens. Tread carefully.

[79280_116520]

After decimating the faux vintage Panerai scams, Perezcope is now after the PN Daytonas. This should be VERY interesting, I need to order plenty of popcorn for this.