Update to Sotheby's Reneged on a Winning Rolex Bid: Update

[SeeDweller]

Originally Posted by Corius

Sotheby's never owned the watch, they were acting as a broker for the owner who pulled it from the auction.

For some, unknown, reason the listing wasn't removed. Sotheby's have offered you a full refund, have apologised and offered you reduced shipping in the future.

I'm afraid no judge is going to find in your favour, your best best is that your lawyer get's some form of compensation but I really doubt that will happen as a) Sotheby's will have terms to cover it, b) they will have experienced lawyers who have encountered this sort of dispute many times and c) they won't want to set a precedent.

When these sort of things happen we feel personally mistreated and want to punish the perpetrator. But Sotheby's aren't a person, they are a dispassionate business. They won't get emotional about this and will treat it just the same way as if they were ordering a stack of notepaper.

I would write off the experience and get on with life, but it's your choice of course.

Good luck, whatever you choose to do.

This!!

I’m inclined to go crazy when corporate mess-ups get personal with me. I obtain names, dates, documents, and I keep everything!! I fantasize about what I can do, and “what they’ll have to do”, and I’ll tell my wife my plans. She’ll listen, and commiserate, and then tell me calmly to hit the delete, and let’s go do something fun today.
I have a wise wife.

Corius? For a newcomer to TRF, you’ve posted some really thoughtful items ! This is spot on, and explained with respect (and clearly, from experience!)

OP? Decide where you wish to invest your energy, your funds, and your time over the next few weeks and months, but I guarantee you that you won’t come out on top with this one. They’re not going to give you an extra $10k, “...to make up for your inconvenience”!! It just ain’t gonna happen.

Enjoy your weekend, and your search for that next good deal! That’s the fun, anyway!


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[subtona]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

I feel no stress. This will be fun and is a matter of principle. I am stubborn, bored, and stupid.

You forgot to add
Their worst nightmare

Very disappointing to read, if this were a trusted seller the choice would be to go out of pocket to make it right or never do business again... will Sotheby’s believe they can sweep this under the rug without losing business?

The entire transaction played out through all of the steps, the point of delivery is far too late to put it on the customer!

Hey Sotheby’s ! Do the right thing!

Best of luck

[101031-28]

Funny how when below market value, a sale can suddenly become void... Mmmmmm
As much I as I would feel the need to pursue out of principle, the cost and effort going against a giant like Sotheby's would make it too much of a headache for me.

[M45]

I expect this level of shenanigans from eBay.

[Brew]

What damages have you suffered? They offered your money back. I don't see how you collect consequential damages, only they directs they've offered back.

[sgwatchguy]

Go after them. Costs they have to bear, internally and externally, will be in their consideration as they decide what to do here. I see a settlement offer to close and move on.

[vh2k]

Originally Posted by Brew

What damages have you suffered? They offered your money back. I don't see how you collect consequential damages, only they directs they've offered back.

Honestly, OP shouldn’t bother with a lawyer. Ask Sotheby’s if they would consider a full refund AND a $2,500 credit toward the purchase of another lot within the next 12 months in the interest of putting the issue behind both parties. Best you’ll get. They hold all the cards.

[Sejanus]

Given that you ignored his request not to post to forums until the matter was resolved and also demanded MORE THAN DOUBLE what you paid for the watch as one of your potential resolutions I am not at all shocked they stopped replying to you. You've basically shown them you are not discussing a resolution in good faith so they aren't going to give you anything else to post about.

You aren't going to win this one. Don't waste any time/money with a lawyer (it isn't going to work), take the refund and move on.

[fullofboats]

Originally Posted by Sejanus

Given that you ignored his request not to post to forums until the matter was resolved and also demanded MORE THAN DOUBLE what you paid for the watch as one of your potential resolutions I am not at all shocked they stopped replying to you. You've basically shown them you are not discussing a resolution in good faith so they aren't going to give you anything else to post about.

You aren't going to win this one. Don't waste any time/money with a lawyer (it isn't going to work), take the refund and move on.

You should check the dates. The last message I received from Sotheby's was June 23. It is now July 17. I waited a month for a reply or a resolution before providing an update to the forum. Also, I asked for: 1) my watch; 2) a similar watch; 3) financial equivalent (to purchase a similar watch). Nice of you to skip my first two suggestions for a resolution in order to push a false narrative that I am not discussing with them in "good faith".

Do you work for Sotheby's? Good to have you back at TRF after 9 years. Tell Richard I said hi, it'd be nice to hear back from him.

[AF_Rob]

As much as I’m on the OP‘s side I want to see it work out in his favor, I just don’t see that playing out.

To me, between the cost of pursuit, mental bandwidth, and time, the juice is just not worth the squeeze. If I was going through this, I would die sooner because of it.

I would just take the refund, never do business with them again and move on.


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[Das]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

I feel no stress. This will be fun and is a matter of principle. I am stubborn, bored, and stupid.

Love it! Give 'em hell. They want and expect you to back out. I'm sure a court case and or press attention will not be a good look for them.

Better call Saul

[Sejanus]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

You should check the dates. The last message I received from Sotheby's was June 23. It is now July 17. I waited a month for a reply or a resolution before providing an update to the forum. Also, I asked for: 1) my watch; 2) a similar watch; 3) financial equivalent (to purchase a similar watch). Nice of you to skip my first two suggestions for a resolution in order to push a false narrative that I am not discussing with them in "good faith".

Do you work for Sotheby's? Good to have you back at TRF after 9 years. Tell Richard I said hi, it'd be nice to hear back from him.

No I don't work for Sotheby's, though I find it funny that was your initial thought. I literally just saw this and decided to reply because your request for 25k is ridiculous. I also did not skip your first two suggestions, they are just irrelevant at this point. They have told you point blank that you are not getting the watch so #1 is out whether you want to listen to it or not. #2 is possible given that they already told you they'd keep an eye out for another comparable watch but frankly if I were in their position and had the lawyers/money that they no doubt have I would have skipped right to #3, shown it to my legal department and they very well may have advised me to stop replying hence their final reply saying they can direct you to their legal department.

So as you can see, I have read your comments and theirs.. you just don't really want to accept the reality of the situation (They most likely made a mistake (whether it was IT or the seller pulling the item)) and you don't like being told it won't work. That's fine.. it is your energy, time and money to waste, not mine.

[Das]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

Do you work for Sotheby's? Good to have you back at TRF after 9 years. Tell Richard I said hi, it'd be nice to hear back from him.

Busted!

[Sejanus]

Originally Posted by Das

Busted!

Trust me, if I worked for Sotheby's do you think I'd risk my job replying to the OP on a forum that they already admitted they know about? The fact that OP even suggested it is laughable. I am sure there are LOTS of lurkers on this forum that don't post for a number of years until a certain point get their attention.. clearly I should have just typed my reply out and hit delete and stayed lurking..

[fullofboats]

Originally Posted by Sejanus

Trust me, if I worked for Sotheby's do you think I'd risk my job replying to the OP on a forum that they already admitted they know about? The fact that OP even suggested it is laughable. I am sure there are LOTS of lurkers on this forum that don't post for a number of years until a certain point get their attention.. clearly I should have just typed my reply out and hit delete and stayed lurking..

What I find funny is that your first post in 9 years is to tell me that I am not discussing with Sotheby's in "good faith" because I am asking for the watch, or some reasonably equivalent alternative, that I won and paid for at auction, . The number I suggested is based on market price on any number of websites.

[Sejanus]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

What I find funny is that your first post in 9 years is to tell me that I am not discussing with Sotheby's in "good faith" because I am asking for the watch, or some reasonably equivalent alternative, that I won and paid for at auction, . The number I suggested is based on market price on any number of websites.

Pure coincidence I assure you.. no idea why THIS was the one that spoke to me enough that I decided to post on.. but I clearly made the wrong choice. Good luck with whatever avenue you decide to pursue.. just be ready for not getting what you want.

[Wahlberg]

Good luck! I'm amazed no one else bid more on the watch with all the people looking for a deal.

As others have already mentioned, I doubt anything will happen. Your e-mails will likely be already forwarded to a spam folder. These companies can't be harmed nor do they care.

[garyk]

I don’t know you OP but amazing how eloquent they can be after they basically crapped on you. They are such a snotty group and I would point out to them, apparently in reality no more professional than EBay! A stain on their reputation, a black mark on their professionalism. It’s one thing to have something slip through the cracks but to just blatantly screw someone and then remark we can put you in touch with our lawyers, incredible!

[RJRJRJ]

I'm surprised they didn't at least offer to waive the premium on a future purchase.

[Albatross]

I believe that by being proclaimed the “winner” of the auction and then by promptly paying in full for the item with that payment being accepted, a court would find that Sotheby’s at that point had entered into a legal contract with you to provide the watch. They are clearly in breach of contract here.

I would at the very least consult a lawyer who is very familiar with litigating contract law and breach and get an opinion on whether this is winnable and an estimate for what would be involved in legal fees to pursue the breach claim.

At least at that point you would have an opinion from a legal mind and an estimate of the cost to chase it down. I personally think you would win…but the question is, is it worth 10k in legal fees to win this? Probably not. But get the opinion and get the numbers and then you can make an educated decision.

We’re not talking about a deal that went bad here with “Joe’s Auction House”. This is Sotheby’s. These guys bill themselves as the cream of the crop of auction houses. Theses no way that this should happen when dealing with the “best”. They are a big operation. They can afford to make it right, and I don’t feel that a refund of money is making it right. They need to provide performance on the contract in one way or another and you have given them choices on how to do so in an acceptable manner. I’d find a lawyer who wants to take these guys on but doesn’t want to kill you with fees to do so…but easier said than done. Good luck.


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[77T]

Originally Posted by Albatross

I believe that by being proclaimed the “winner” of the auction and then by promptly paying in full for the item with that payment being accepted, a court would find that Sotheby’s at that point had entered into a legal contract with you to provide the watch. They are clearly in breach of contract here.

I would at the very least consult a lawyer who is very familiar with litigating contract law and breach and get an opinion on whether this is winnable and an estimate for what would be involved in legal fees to pursue the breach claim.

At least at that point you would have an opinion from a legal mind and an estimate of the cost to chase it down. I personally think you would win…but the question is, is it worth 10k in legal fees to win this? Probably not. But get the opinion and get the numbers and then you can make an educated decision.

We’re not talking about a deal that went bad here with “Joe’s Auction House”. This is Sotheby’s. These guys bill themselves as the cream of the crop of auction houses. Theses no way that this should happen when dealing with the “best”. They are a big operation. They can afford to make it right, and I don’t feel that a refund of money is making it right. They need to provide performance on the contract in one way or another and you have given them choices on how to do so in an acceptable manner. I’d find a lawyer who wants to take these guys on but doesn’t want to kill you with fees to do so…but easier said than done. Good luck.


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Nope - that’s not how contracts work in auctions where the seller has title. In other words, when the auction house is selling someone else’s property.

Of course anyone can sue if they want to waste their money - that is, based upon what we’ve read in the two threads.

In erred auctions, the seller cannot be compelled to accept buyer’s price (when an error in the auction occurs as this case appears to be).

The only agreement that exists is between the auction house and all bidders, and between the auction house and the property owner. Not between title holder and highest bidder.

The initial thread clearly pointed out the process of obtaining an item by the highest bidder. And that process did not complete - there was no formal acceptance by Sotheby’s of highest bidder as evidenced by absence of invoice.

Therefore, the title does not pass to the buyer until formal acceptance of the bid, followed by buyer’s payment. Bidders all accepted Sotheby’s T&C’s by bidding.


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[SydR]

The owner of the watch contacted the auction house to withdraw it from sale before the auction took place. Therefore Sothebys had nothing to sell and should not have taken bids on the Lot.

What Sothebys say is an IT error should more correctly be stated to be human error, most likely someone not reading the email in time or failing to act on it.

I suspect a refund of what you paid, and an apology, is the best outcome you are going to get.

As for it being a $25,000 watch? Your bid sits roughly mid-estimate.

[Rado63]

It seems many responders want to see some recourse against the auction house but you have not posted in this discussion the signed terms and conditions that the original owner of the watch had agreed to and the signed terms and conditions that you agreed to as a buyer. Your recourse against the auction house may be in those terms and conditions. As far as the auction house is concerned they get a commission from every sale, so why would they care that the watch went to auction and sold below what a secondary market dealer would price the same item at retail? They sell hundreds of items at each auction and the commission adds up whether the item sells above estimates or below estimates. Sorry they made a mistake by auctioning an item that was removed by the seller. You are smart to look for items and try to buy them at below market rates, and I am sure you will find more items in the future.

[rmurphy]

I owned a car lot for years and made my living buying and selling cars at auction. These types of things happen all the time. I’d just move on, these auctions don’t care about your one deal. I doubt an attorney would even take the case, they like to win and your case isn’t a winner.


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[statsman]

“How much is your good name worth to you?”

I imagine we have all had to answer that question, and if you are in business, the answer involves paying money you really aren’t obligated to.

Sotheby’s screwed up. How much is their good name worth to them? If the answer is that they won’t pay a dime for it, then they really don’t have a good name, do they? There is no fault in broadcasting that.

[MrGoat]

I’m curious why Rich’s signature and title changed in 5 days, including the elimination of his phone number. Coincidence or funny business?


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[JSolution]

Originally Posted by THC

An attorney will charge by the hour for his/her services and that will strip away any sense of the good deal you initially got. This totally sucks, but as stated above, Southebys has lawyers on retainer I bet, and can take anything that comes at them, sad to say.

Get the refund and move on imo

Agreed

[fullofboats]

Originally Posted by 77T

And that process did not complete - there was no formal acceptance by Sotheby’s of highest bidder as evidenced by absence of invoice.

Therefore, the title does not pass to the buyer until formal acceptance of the bid, followed by buyer’s payment. Bidders all accepted Sotheby’s T&C’s by bidding.


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Invoice provided. Payment confirmed. Transaction completed.

[Jpccarguy]

Originally Posted by 77T

Nope - that’s not how contracts work in auctions where the seller has title. In other words, when the auction house is selling someone else’s property.

Of course anyone can sue if they want to waste their money - that is, based upon what we’ve read in the two threads.

In erred auctions, the seller cannot be compelled to accept buyer’s price (when an error in the auction occurs as this case appears to be).

The only agreement that exists is between the auction house and all bidders, and between the auction house and the property owner. Not between title holder and highest bidder.

The initial thread clearly pointed out the process of obtaining an item by the highest bidder. And that process did not complete - there was no formal acceptance by Sotheby’s of highest bidder as evidenced by absence of invoice.

Therefore, the title does not pass to the buyer until formal acceptance of the bid, followed by buyer’s payment. Bidders all accepted Sotheby’s T&C’s by bidding.


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+1

I think that's your legal opinion right there, free of charge!

[77T]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

Invoice provided. Payment confirmed. Transaction completed.

I am sorry for the mis-statement. I believed in your first thread that they claimed to have not charged you.


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