My Tudor 7928 Sub Saga **Billjetpilot**

[Nicko]

The seller sold it on eBay, and then looks like started posting on TRF, perhaps from some encouragement from Nicko?

Yes, that's the case. I thought it would be nice for him to join and impart some of his WIS knowledge here on the forum.

One should not buy vintage watches if you cant afford the service costs involved in the up keep of the movements.

I never said I couldn't afford the service, affording the repair is not the problem here. Are you missing the point?

never assume anything - assume at your own peril!

I couldn't agree more.

So, all in all I agree with what most of you are saying on both sides of the fence, I just have my own personal views on how this all has transpired. I said this time and time again, the seller was fantastic throughout the entire process, I haven't an qualms with that, he went above and beyond the call. I only have a problem when I am told something that is clearly an untruth.

Now, I have posted the photos for all of you who wanted to see them, but it appears to not be enough. I posted the watchmaker's findings, not enough. Well, there's nothing else I can do. I am stuck with it and I will chalk this up as a life lesson.

For those of you who accuse me of whining, ok, I'm guilty, but who else am I going to complain to? No one else will listen to a WIS an his problems

For those of you who accuse me oif populating this thread with just ore complaints about my watch, well, I have listened to your whining about FEDEX, UPS and dirty deals as well...Those who live in glass houses....

[BASSETHOUNDS]

Originally Posted by oinkitt

never assume anything - assume at your own peril!

Ok , that is of course always true and if are no longer allowed to assume anything in life ... well . I'll will from now on ask the owner of the cafetaria I'm sitting sipping my "cafe solo " go provide me a written statement that the coffe he bought is of good quality , the water used filtered and his machine to make has been serviced and complies with all health regulations .. because I can no longer assume anything .
Just one thing Oinkitt ? Do you honestly would have read " pressure tested " as only just that ?
No,I believe this watch has been checked over , we can read from a mail that the seller had to buy a caseback to ensure pressure testing , I'm no tech expert but allow me to "assume" that inorder to replace a case back you would have to remove the existing one from the case and hence see the movement and the state of it . In that same mail we understand that the seller had to spend 600 usd , so allow me to "assume" again that the seller did not order a service with his watchmaker for pure and simple economics .
This is not our affair , but the seller and buyer's . We see that Stevo is trying to mediate in this affair and let's hope that there will be a solution acceptable to both parties

[Nicko]

the water used filtered and his machine to make has been serviced and complies with all health regulations

Now Tristan, I been to some places where I doubted that they actually used water to make their coffee, never mind complying with health regs....

[oinkitt]

Originally Posted by BASSETHOUNDS

Ok , that is of course always true and if are no longer allowed to assume anything in life ... well . I'll will from now on ask the owner of the cafetaria I'm sitting sipping my "cafe solo " go provide me a written statement that the coffe he bought is of good quality , the water used filtered and his machine to make has been serviced and complies with all health regulations .. because I can no longer assume anything .
Just one thing Oinkitt ? Do you honestly would have read " pressure tested " as only just that ?
No,I believe this watch has been checked over , we can read from a mail that the seller had to buy a caseback to ensure pressure testing , I'm no tech expert but allow me to "assume" that inorder to replace a case back you would have to remove the existing one from the case and hence see the movement and the state of it .

Assume as much as you want re your coffee - there is big difference between buying a coffee and buying a second hand watch, car, etc.

As far as I am aware, you dont have to service at watch to presure test it. Be careful not to read more into a discription than is actually written. As I previously stated a quick glance at the movement wont necessary pick up all or any issues.

I bought a watch from Europe last year for over 70k - I asked the vender if it functioned as it should and was advised it did. when I recieved the watch I found it only worked sometimes as the balance pinion was broken - should I have "spat the dummie" and demanded the vender pay for the repair? I think not, I didnt even contact the guy about it.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by oinkitt

Assume as much as you want re your coffee - there is big difference between buying a coffee and buying a second hand watch, car, etc.

As far as I am aware, you dont have to service at watch to presure test it. Be careful not to read more into a discription than is actually written. As I previously stated a quick glance at the movement wont necessary pick up all or any issues.

I bought a watch from Europe last year for over 70k - I asked the vender if it functioned as it should and was advised it did. when I recieved the watch I found it only worked sometimes as the balance pinion was broken - should I have "spat the dummie" and demanded the vender pay for the repair? I think not, I didnt even contact the guy about it.

Well, if you're buing 70K watches then bless your soul, we are all different. I personally know a multimillionaire here in Spain who drives a beat up 10 year old scooter around and will bicker about the cost of a haircut, but that's him. We all handle situations differntly.

[Jackxv]

The seller states the watch was serviced a little over a year ago and the watch is in working order. The seller gives this information to the buyer.
This is a major part of information, this information tells something about the movement, it should work flawless without major wear, because it was serviced a year ago. When buying a car on which the seller says the distribution belt was changed means you don't have to wonder the next 120000 km

The buyer does not have the watch checked-out within the three day examination period after he receives the watch.
Try to get it taken apart by an AD within 3 days

The watch "goes south" after three or four weeks, and the seller says, sorry, can't really help you out now. You left me positive feedback and said what a great watch this Tudor is. This is quite incredulous.
On a serviced watch you can have the expectation it runs longer than 3 weeks, a broken stem is allways possible But a major overhaul is not to be expected

So, the watch is checked, photographed examined and it is clear that the watch was not as described by the seller, and needs a major overhaul.
That's not expected on a recently serviced watch.

If I am the seller, I'd feel like a complete fool and immediately, I mean immediately, take care of this mess. The watch was not as described. The three-day inspection period to me is always a red flag, I would never buy a watch with that stipulation. If they can't give you two or three weeks to have the watch checked out, then I'd shop elsewhere, expecially if buying the watch sight unseen.

He bought it from a 15 year experience seller who said it was recently serviced, be bought the seller
Maybe the seller should've wonderered after not passing the WR test whether there was no further damage to the movement, from a 15 year experience watch seller i'd expect that personally (the moisture propably allready killed the dial)

Offcourse there's a risk in buying vintage. In normal circumstances the buyer and seller should split costs both for their ignorance.

Jack

[springer]

Originally Posted by oinkitt

I am sure this is going to offend some - but I agree with Chickofthesea!!!!!!

PEOPLE LIKE NICKO AND SPRINGER SHOULD NOT BUY "DEAD PEOPLES CRAP" - YOU ARE ONLY GOING TO BE DISAPOINTED!!!! BUY NEW STUFF IF YOU WANT IT BE BE NEW!!

As for a three day inspection peroid - anyone can have a watch inspected within 3 days - I buy at least 2 watches a month and generally get a watch repairer to look at them the next day to see what sort of nick they are in. Granted a quick look at the movement may not pick up everything one might find on a full service.

One should not buy vintage watches if you cant afford the service costs involved in the up keep of the movements. I personally allow for a service of any watch I buy - I suggest this frame of mind, then you will rarely be disappointed!!

I have been buying and selling "dead peoples crap" for 30 years, and I believe in being fair - but it really is caveat venditor, when buying second hand property.

Then there is the old issue of everyones opinion being different !!

The watch in question is one I would not touch, except to flip - but I note Nicko and a number of other forum members think very highly of it. It is my opinion, that given the fact that the watch has a new look (refinished dial, replaced hands) persons who like this look should buy new watches as it would seem they want a new watch. If you bought a 50 year old car with a new paint job and the original motor, it would be unreasonable to expect that it not break down.

Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaar

Don't worry about me, I have many, many vintage Rolexes. Never have had an issue with any of them.

After reading your post, I doubt I would ever consider purchasing a watch from you. I do appreciate your honesty though, my TRF member friend.

[Nicko]

Dead people's crap just sounds so disrespectful. No worries, I don't think I would buy any of your "crap" either.

[BASSETHOUNDS]

Originally Posted by Nicko

Now Tristan, I been to some places where I doubted that they actually used water to make their coffee, never mind complying with health regs....

Ok Nicko , but you live in Andalousia .... for us living in Cataluyna that is about the same as Africa ....

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by BASSETHOUNDS

Ok Nicko , but you live in Andalousia .... for us living in Cataluyna that is about the same as Africa ....

Not quite the same, but close...

[Earl Camembert]

Originally Posted by ChickoftheSea

And frankly, I believe so will the members of TRF who have been exposed to the regrettable choice to make this situation public.

I like real life stories. It is the white washed never is heard a discouraging word (eBay forums) I find regrettable.

[AF/1]

{

[AF/1]

Originally Posted by Jackxv

The buyer does not have the watch checked-out within the three day examination period after he receives the watch.
Try to get it taken apart by an AD within 3 days



Jack

good point, jackxv, 3 days is tough but.....the buyer, agreed to these terms, when he entered into the contract to buy the watch.
The buyer, simply by placing his bid on ebay, is his legal bid and acceptance to all the stipulations that the seller has put forth.

should the seller offer to help with repair costs?
should the buyer have had it inspected sooner?
should the buyer asked for more than three days?
should buyer and seller had better communications privately?
would you have bid on that watch?
would I have bid on that watch?

we could ask the "would have should haves" until we are all blue, but what is done is done.

[Earl Camembert]

Originally Posted by Zirotti

Perhaps this is exactly why RSC refuses to service a lot of older watches?

From personal experience and hearsay it depends on other things besides how old the watch is. I took a 1968 DD into Rolex USA for service. They knew how old the watch was within five minutes of my presenting the watch at the front desk; the serial number is intact.

Only after the watch went into the back did they tell me it was too old for them to service. A private watchmaker made it run like a Swiss watch for $350.

[AF/1]

Originally Posted by BASSETHOUNDS

This is not our affair , but the seller and buyer's . We see that Stevo is trying to mediate in this affair and let's hope that there will be a solution acceptable to both parties

Best line of the whole thread

[Lol-x]

Originally Posted by billjetpilot

Everything I told you in my listing and after you purchased the watch was true to the best of my knowledge and I never intended to mislead.

Having seen the auction I can say that is not the full, complete and truthful story.

You did state in your auction that the watch was 'in good condition'.

Once you make a representation as to the condition of the watch, you have to be responsible for that statement whether in fact it is true or false.

As it turns out that statement was false, and the buyer relied on it to his detriment in bidding the price that he did to win the auction.

To say that you believed the statement as condition to be true is something you may say is a defence to the accusation that you acted dishonestly, but that does not absolve you of responsibility.

If all sellers took that approach they could honestly say "I thought it was in excellent condition." as an excuse to selling something that on any objective view was a piece of junk.

Niko paid a substantial sum for a watch that the seller said was in 'good condition'. That wasn't his fault or lookout because the seller had made an affirmative statement as to the 'good condition' of the watch.

The fact that the seller has not made amends gives one cause to query whether in fact the statement as to the condition of the watch was in fact made honestly or was in reality made with knowledge or an intended disregard to the true condition (very poor) condition of the watch.

[Lol-x]

Originally Posted by billjetpilot

I have over 10 years of buying and selling watches with a perfect 100% positive feedback.

Billjetpilot

Originally Posted by billjetpilot

I felt bad about what happened and offered to help pay for the repair if the would drop the dispute against me. Nicko has refused to drop the dispute and Paypal has ruled in my favor.

I have been a seller on eBay and Timezone for 10 years and I have 100% positive feedback.

Billjetpilot

I think there are a number of sellers who may have a good history, but as one knows a sellers reputation is only as good as his last transaction.
Some sellers can have an unblemished record, but that record can easily change as experience can only too clearly show.

There is no PayPal dispute, it was dismissed.
However, the fact remains that the seller has not made any offer to Nicko to remedy this situation.
Actions speak louder than words.........that's all.

[billjetpilot]

Hi Stevo:

Thank you again for your thoughtful consideration of this issue and your offer to mediate. However, it now appears that your role was not an impartial one.

There is one problem that has not been discussed and that is the issue of the claim that Nicko has filed with Paypal. He filed this claim without giving me a chance to negotiate with him in good faith and come to some kind of agreement. I kindly asked him to cancel the dispute, but he curtly refused. Now that the issue is with Paypal, we will need to let that play out before I can consider the option of helping him pay for a repair. Lets say I send Nicko a percentage of the funds required to repair his broken watch and later Paypal re-opens the claim (it was deferred, not dismissed, and they have up to 180 days to do so), reevaluates the issues, and rules in Nicko's favor. They will seize the funds out of my account and now I will have paid twice. Nicko chose the path of filing this claim with Paypal and now he will have to live by that ruling, however it turns out, just as I will.


Then there is the issue of the very high price of $610 to service a watch. I urged him to get another quote, but it was too late, he had already agreed to have the watch serviced, again before even trying to contact first. His watch maker (with whom he has never worked with before) has a financial stake in portraying the watch as a basket case. This is simply not the case. My watchmaker, with over 30 years of watchmaking experience, did go over the watch and deemed it in good operating condition. It is a vintage watch and surely will show some signs of normal wear and tear. It was running well when Nicko broke the winding stem. I don't know how he broke the stem on this automatic watch, but if he had not done so, he would be enjoying the watch today. Anyway, a more reasonable approach would have been for Nicko to contact me first, both of us to agree on the reasonable cost of a service, and then negotiate a fair amount for both of us to pay. Sadly, Nicko has proven quite a few times now that he is not a reasonable man.

I have been a collector/seller of watches for many years and have never had a problem with any of my buyers. Nicko, on the other hand, has filed complaints against me twice (both times without contacting me first). Moreover, he has unleashed multiple public attacks against me (and other members) on this forum. You see, Nicko never really wanted to work things out with me, he wanted Paypal to seize the funds and at the same time rip me in public. Reasonable people elicit the reasonable negotiation of others. Nicko has taken us down this road and he and I will have to live with the outcome.

Billjetpilot

[Lol-x]

Bill your accusation that I am biased is your view. I have no interest financially or otherwise, only getting this resolved. You effectively terminated my role in attempting to mediate this when you were not prepared to negotiate a resolution of this matter and claimed you could not do anything about the situation for another 6 months.

I don't have the power to decide anything in this case to resolve it. But your participation in the process of attempting to achieve a result was one where you were not prepared to negotiate at all.

I understood your previous posts to be that you were mindful of making an offer to resolve this situation. However, as you know, you offered nothing.

You seem to hang your hat now on the prospect that PayPal can resuscitate a claim at any time in the next 6 months that they have already in fact made a final determination upon and closed.

It was quite clear in the image that you removed, that the PayPal dispute has ended because PayPal does not (for the purposes of Nicko's claim) deal with quality issues in the goods, just whether the goods were received or not.

No one asked you to pay $610 for the repairs to the watch.
But the fact is you weren't prepared to offer anything.

Even if one accepts that Nicko was quick on the initiation of a PayPal dispute, at the end of the day, at this point in time, he has paid for what was on your say so a watch in 'great condition'. He didn't get what you said he was getting.

If the seller's watchmaker tells the seller "the watch is in great condition" and the seller warrants that to the buyer, it is no excuse for the seller to turn around and say, "well that is what I believed to be true, but I'm not responsible for that representation because I was relying on what my watchmaker or other person told me."

Its just a matter of taking responsibility for your statements to others.

It's open to any seller to issue a partial refund to a buyer. Paypal would (if they ever decided to reconsider this case) naturally take into account any partial refund and agreement between the parties.

[Safetrends]

My 2 cents:

I have been in business for twenty five years plus, I am a self employed person who makes it a point to keep customers happy. If a problem occurs on a product, after the sale, I am the first to jump in and diagnose the problem. I will determine who is at fault me or the customer. I have had times where a customer called someone else and I paid the technician out of my own pocket for services to one of my jobs that a failure occurred.

I have a reputation to uphold in my small community of safe technicians and one problem could mount to a major loss of business. I have worked with the Navy for years, an example is one job that is a recurring nightmare, the customer keeps breaking the product. It is not my fault however I have to eat my time and repair the lock when it is a question of my work, what I mean to clarify, it is not a outright failure you can put your finger on. Other times I have witness's who will state the item is vandalized.

So do I stand my ground and loose the Navy over a job that is worth my whole income with the Navy or do I make it right for free. The domino effect is that I could loose up to two hundred thousand dollars with the military or loose a couple of hundred.

Now the cause and effect is that the Navy community talks and I have heard comments on how I really work to make a problem right and that is why they keep calling me back. In my work, I am giving 100% and more to all of my customers. I have been known to stand in the rain, for several hours, waiting for a ship to dock so I could repair a product so the crew could stand down and go home. If I was not there for them they could not go home until the product was repaired and functional.

I cannot take photographs of my work, however when the product is off base I can take photographs of products for proof of physical damage.

It is all about service after the sale, several maybes here, one should be to examine the product before it is sold, taking photographs. If you are in this for the long haul you need to have photographs to document the product and without the photographs you do not have a leg to stand on. All Rolex movements have serial numbers and if the movement was documented the serial number would jump out. I have jeweler who I have done business with for years and he photographs all of his movements, dials, cases, so if a problems does come up he has proof of what he sold to the customer and the condition of the product. This is a big lesson to learn when your creditability is on the line.

I hope for the best outcome in this situation and I hope that some education came out of it this thread.

[User Name]

Originally Posted by Safetrends

My 2 cents:

I have been in business for twenty five years plus, I am a self employed person who makes it a point to keep customers happy. If a problem occurs on a product, after the sale, I am the first to jump in and diagnose the problem. I will determine who is at fault me or the customer. I have had times where a customer called someone else and I paid the technician out of my own pocket for services to one of my jobs that a failure occurred.

I have a reputation to uphold in my small community of safe technicians and one problem could mount to a major loss of business. I have worked with the Navy for years, an example is one job that is a recurring nightmare, the customer keeps breaking the product. It is not my fault however I have to eat my time and repair the lock when it is a question of my work, what I mean to clarify, it is not a outright failure you can put your finger on. Other times I have witness's who will state the item is vandalized.

So do I stand my ground and loose the Navy over a job that is worth my whole income with the Navy or do I make it right for free. The domino effect is that I could loose up to two hundred thousand dollars with the military or loose a couple of hundred.

Now the cause and effect is that the Navy community talks and I have heard comments on how I really work to make a problem right and that is why they keep calling me back. In my work, I am giving 100% and more to all of my customers. I have been known to stand in the rain, for several hours, waiting for a ship to dock so I could repair a product so the crew could stand down and go home. If I was not there for them they could not go home until the product was repaired and functional.

I cannot take photographs of my work, however when the product is off base I can take photographs of products for proof of physical damage.

It is all about service after the sale, several maybes here, one should be to examine the product before it is sold, taking photographs. If you are in this for the long haul you need to have photographs to document the product and without the photographs you do not have a leg to stand on. All Rolex movements have serial numbers and if the movement was documented the serial number would jump out. I have jeweler who I have done business with for years and he photographs all of his movements, dials, cases, so if a problems does come up he has proof of what he sold to the customer and the condition of the product. This is a big lesson to learn when your creditability is on the line.

I hope for the best outcome in this situation and I hope that some education came out of it this thread.

We need more good men like you............


Neil

[Lol-x]

This is what the seller stated in the auction (my emphasis added):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1182

Originally Posted by billjetpilot

Offered for auction here is a beautiful pre-owned men’s Tudor 7928 rose submariner. The dial and hands have been professionally refinished. The watch was pressure tested to factory specs by my watchmaker and is 100% authentic Rolex Tudor. Comes on a black Maratac strap. This watch has a serial number dating it to 1964. It is a full size 40mm case in stainless steel. The watch is in great condition and is running strong with a classic and sought after Tudor caliber 390 movement. The watch does not come with box or papers, but it is guaranteed authentic Rolex Tudor or your money back. Check my feedback. Over the years I have sold many high end watches on Ebay such as Rolex, Omega, and Breitling all with 100% positive feedback.


As with all pre-owned vintage watches, this watch is sold as-is. Refunds will only be given if the watch is found to be significantly different than the description. It is guaranteed authentic Rolex Tudor or your money back. Contact me prior to bidding if you have zero feedback or negative feedback. I am a watch collector/enthusiast and not associated with Rolex Tudor in any way.

As the seller indicates that the watch has had some professional refinishing work and has been pressure tested by a watchmaker, coupled with the fact that it is stated that the watch is in 'great condition' - fairly leads a prospective buyer to be entitled to conclude that there are no major latent defects regarding the condition of the watch. On the contrary a prospective buyer could reasonably conclude from these representations that the watch was in 'great' mechanical and aesthetic condition such that it was not in need of significant mechanical or other attention as at the time of sale.

If on the other hand the seller had said, "Used Tudor Sub" without stating anything as to the condition, let alone it being said it was in 'great condition' the buyer would not be entitled to cry foul of the condition of the watch if it had a latent defect when the seller says 'as is'.

[springer]

Well put Steve, and I concur with your observations as noted in your last two posts. Specifically, the seller states:

"As with all pre-owned vintage watches, this watch is sold as-is. Refunds will only be given if the watch is found to be significantly different than the description. It is guaranteed authentic Rolex Tudor or your money back. Contact me prior to bidding if you have zero feedback or negative feedback. I am a watch collector/enthusiast and not associated with Rolex Tudor in any way."

Stating an item is sold "as is" means no warranty to me, and sold as described. Further, he states that a refund will be given if the watch is different as described. The seller should have offered a refund or an amicable solution to the buyer due to it obviously not being in the condition as described.

I've had two situations similar to this happen to me and in each instance, the seller made it right with me. Buying vintage is not risky business, especially if you if you know the rules before you play.

[billjetpilot]

There is really no question who's side you are on Mr. Mediator. You also told me that you would not publish the details of our negotiations, but now you have. Very dishonest. Now I am being bullied by two TRF members.

[CaveDiver]

^^
Bill,
1) You are not putting your watchmaker in a good light.
2) Why is $610 US a high service cost? What does your watchmaker charge for a service with standard replacement parts?

I'm just and outsider and that price does not seem unreasonable to me. Maybe I'm just foolish.

I’m guessing Steve has an itemized list of parts that need to be replaced in Nicko’s watch?? I would have expected a lot higher bill for the parts.

[idk01]

Guys we need to sit back a bit and let Bill and Steve (Nicko) get this one sorted out, leave the judgment for the end result, need a bit of time so both parties are satisfied

[Lol-x]

Originally Posted by billjetpilot

There is really no question who's side you are on Mr. Mediator. You also told me that you would not publish the details of our negotiations, but now you have. Very dishonest. Now I am being bullied by two TRF members.

I'm just stating the facts that you already made public yourself.
I haven't disclosed any private communications you had with me.

The fact is notwithstanding your agreement to negotiate, you in reality weren't prepared to negotiate at all. Don't publicly make out yourself to be open to acting reasonably and negotiation and then privately in effect refuse to negotiate at all.

Its up to you what you do, but when you agree publicly to go into a process of negotiation, and then privately conduct yourself otherwise and say " thanks for your help but I can't negotiate because PayPal might reverse their decision in 6 months time." Well who is being genuine there......

Pigs might fly too.

[billjetpilot]

Stevo, the only option you and your partner (Nicko) offered was that I had to pay up now, or else. I have said "let the paypal thing play out first" then we can talk.

Now please for the love of God, lock this thread.

[arhant]

In an Ebay transaction, it really does not matter what 'terms and conditions' a seller lists. The Ebay/PayPal terms and conditions are the only that matter. I believe that a buyer has as much as 45 days to return an item 'significantly not as described' (SNAD). This is one reason that so many sellers of high end items have left Ebay.

[Lol-x]

If your position is and was always, "let the paypal thing work out" (which only you at that stage knew you were not negotiable for another 6 months) why did you even indicate you would be mindful of sorting this matter out now by negotiation?

It seems just a little disingenuous to say to the buyer, "Wait for 6 months and then I'll think about whether I sort this out."

That is what in effect you are now saying.

The only reason Nicko's PayPal dispute was knocked out is because he had alredy closed a dispute regarding this item and PayPal were not going to now entertain the dispute when it had been previously closed.

It's really absurd for a buyer to tell any seller, "Well I know I did the wrong thing, but go away and come back and talk to me in 6 months time."