More info regarding the Panerai disgrace...

[masterkiller]

...another post from Paneristi.com regarding the unfinished movement in the PAM318, closeup shots comparing the unfinished movement to the finished...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/35339...terious+PAM318

I owned a 318 with a movement with that finish I would slam it in the AD's table claiming my money back, it is a disgrace that Panerai quality control will allow that!

/masterkiller

[karmatp]

Didn't you already make a post regarding the same issue????

We get it, you want the movement to say Panerai. You made your point in the last post, must we keep reading the same thing.

I for one don't think it is that big of a deal,but for some, their panties are all bunched up. Look at the 3135, it is a time proven reliable movement, but it is not easy on the eyes. It is a ugly movement but it is reliable, much like the movement in the 318. I do agree that Panerai should have finished it, but what's done is done, who cares.

The 318 is a tool watch IMHO, just like the sub, the movement does not have to be pretty just reliable and easy to service.

[nauticajoe]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[masterkiller]

Originally Posted by karmatp

Didn't you already make a post regarding the same issue????

We get it, you want the movement to say Panerai. You made your point in the last post, must we keep reading the same thing.

I for one don't think it is that big of a deal,but for some, their panties are all bunched up. Look at the 3135, it is a time proven reliable movement, but it is not easy on the eyes. It is a ugly movement but it is reliable, much like the movement in the 318. I do agree that Panerai should have finished it, but what's done is done, who cares.

The 318 is a tool watch IMHO, just like the sub, the movement does not have to be pretty just reliable and easy to service.

Yes, I posted last time as well, but this now have pictures etc... I could have stayed in the last post but that is closed now...

Alot of people care, just read any forum online...

/masterkiller

[B. Doggy]

Whatever the case, it's flub number 2 recently. Can't make too many flubs that will become collectible. We'll start calling them out on it. Interesting to say the least; I sure don't get it...

[TheDude]

I missed the earlier thread the first time around, but seeing it reinforces my thoughts.

I love Panerai, but the ETA stuff is overpriced IMO. I love the brand and the watches, but I didn't buy until I could get an inhouse. (359)

Does it really make it all better if a watchmaker does some nice engraving and machine finishing on an otherwise unremarkable movement??

Some would reason that perhaps the movements are better regulated and that this sets them apart from lesser brands. This isn't necessarily so. I have an ETA-powered German watch that keeps better time than all my other watches and it cost less than $400.

The sad and ironic thing about this is that the 318 will probably be worth more eventually as a result - as long as the undecorated movement really is isolated to a single model.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk

[aboen]

Thanks for the post....good info.

[Tony-GB]

Interesting reading. Thanks for sharing.

[Cru Jones]

Ugly ugly ugly......

But, this is also the internets.... Who knows if these watches are "factory original"? What if someone on a mission to disparage the brand is floating around a few pix? I mean, this is exactly the weak point for ETA-based PAMs, so, maybe someone is having a good laugh at all those getting excited?

So, while it doesn't look good, I'm also taking this all with a grain of salt.....

[brkanand]

If this the quality of workmanship, then I am not buying a Panerai!

[psv]

Originally Posted by karmatp

Didn't you already make a post regarding the same issue????

We get it, you want the movement to say Panerai. You made your point in the last post, must we keep reading the same thing.

I for one don't think it is that big of a deal,but for some, their panties are all bunched up. Look at the 3135, it is a time proven reliable movement, but it is not easy on the eyes. It is a ugly movement but it is reliable, much like the movement in the 318. I do agree that Panerai should have finished it, but what's done is done, who cares.

The 318 is a tool watch IMHO, just like the sub, the movement does not have to be pretty just reliable and easy to service.

What are you being upset about? This is a new article on the topic and I for one am interested in hearing more detail and analysis.

I know a lot of Paneristis just want to stick their heads in the sand, move on and pretend this didn't happened, but I think this is definitely worth shining some light on.

[karmatp]

Originally Posted by brkanand

If this the quality of workmanship, then I am not buying a Panerai!

Well educate yourself then go buy something with one of their amazing in house movements then, you will be set.

By the way, yes you can wear your Rolex in Santa Fe.....just replying to your other post.



The fact is that Panerai makes some of the most amazing pieces with some of the markets most stunning movements, this was a rare instance. The 318 was a special edition of 150 to celebrate one of their boutiques, it was internet hype that made the watch out to be more than it really is.

Those lucky enough to own the 318 probably have one of the more collectible watches ever from Panerai. This watch will go down in history for this movement mistake, it has true collectors piece written all over it.

How long can we beat a dead horse anyway?????????????

[psv]

A) How is this beating a dead horse? It was only discovered a week or two ago and this is a completely new report from a trusted source/paneristi. It surely shed some new light on the situation.

B) Only an addict would try to spin this as a future collectible. If Panerai had any sense or pride they would try to recall the watch and offer everyone a 233 instead. And provide some public explanation/apology.

I am not loyal to any brand. I'd be the first one to yell scam if Rolex or any other respectable watch maker tried to put a piece out like this and charge $4,500 for it.

This release is, and continuous to be, a major disgrace for the Panerai brand, and this story will be held up for years to come unless Panerai does something brave and courageous to recover from it. Crisis communication 101.

[Bob tomas]

To paraphrase Henry Ford - "Quality is doing it right when nobody is looking"

For the price, Panerai should be a quality item. This is not.

[toph]

Trevor,
I really think you miss the point again. The 318 is a rip off and was either a huge mistake on Panerai's part or a cost cutting exercise.. i would go for the latter as you don't make 150 of the same mistake on the same model. A $100 untouched, unregulated, unrefined mov't in a $5000 watch. As nice as the case and box etc are,you are paying an added premium for a name and LE on the most basic of watches? That is not good practice IMHO. The in house ones will be top quality... this is not.

Originally Posted by karmatp

Well educate yourself then go buy something with one of their amazing in house movements then, you will be set.

By the way, yes you can wear your Rolex in Santa Fe.....just replying to your other post.



The fact is that Panerai makes some of the most amazing pieces with some of the markets most stunning movements, this was a rare instance. The 318 was a special edition of 150 to celebrate one of their boutiques, it was internet hype that made the watch out to be more than it really is.

Those lucky enough to own the 318 probably have one of the more collectible watches ever from Panerai. This watch will go down in history for this movement mistake, it has true collectors piece written all over it.

How long can we beat a dead horse anyway?????????????

[B. Doggy]

Originally Posted by toph

trevor,
i really think you miss the point again. The 318 is a rip off and was either a huge mistake on panerai's part or a cost cutting exercise.. I would go for the latter as you don't make 150 of the same mistake on the same model. A $100 untouched, unregulated, unrefined mov't in a $5000 watch. As nice as the case and box etc are,you are paying an added premium for a name and le on the most basic of watches? That is not good practice imho. The in house ones will be top quality... This is not.

+ 1

[ed21x]

putting a cheap $60 movement into a pam does not a 'collector item' make. You can easily buy this movement on ebay and put it into your pam if you want to. what I find even sadder is that it's not just the finishing, but this is actually the lowest grade movement out there- you can tell because it doesn't have the incabloc shock protection, which also means the following:

"There are also upgraded parts made with different alloys and materials in the higher grades. The Standard and Elaboré calibers use Etachoc shock protection, a nickel balance wheel with a Nivarox 2 alloy hairspring, a Nivaflex NO mainspring, a steel pallet lever and escape wheel, and polyruby pallet jewels. The Top and Chronometre calibers use Incabloc shock protection, a Glucydur balance wheel with an Anchron alloy hairspring, a Nivaflex NM mainspring, a Nivarox pallet lever and escape wheel, and ruby pallet jewels. "

These are huge differences that affect the performance of the movement. I would certainly not want these factors making my watch 'collectable.'

Originally Posted by karmatp

Well educate yourself then go buy something with one of their amazing in house movements then, you will be set.

By the way, yes you can wear your Rolex in Santa Fe.....just replying to your other post.



The fact is that Panerai makes some of the most amazing pieces with some of the markets most stunning movements, this was a rare instance. The 318 was a special edition of 150 to celebrate one of their boutiques, it was internet hype that made the watch out to be more than it really is.

Those lucky enough to own the 318 probably have one of the more collectible watches ever from Panerai. This watch will go down in history for this movement mistake, it has true collectors piece written all over it.

How long can we beat a dead horse anyway?????????????

[TheDude]

I agree. Limited or special editions should be equipped with features and hardware that set them apart in a positive way. At the very least, LE/SE watches should have specs equal to regular models.

Panerai couldn't have possibly thought that choosing such a movement would in any way make the watch more desirable or special.

It's almost like the Duke brothers from "Trading Places" are working at Richemont now and bet each other a dollar to see if the Risti will accept a watch with such offensive specs.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk

[Cru Jones]

Has anyone contacted the NYC boutique? Has anyone talked to an AD or boutique? Has anyone talked to Panerai? Have all 150 watches been checked?

Point is, everyone just simply believes these couple photos from the internets and p.com.

It could very well be a hoax!

[RolexWatcher]

I thought this is fact already? No idea...

Anyways, I am sure those POS fake PAM manufacturers find this highly amusing. They have been putting those movements in their watches for years and now their crappy watches are even more legit.

EDIT - actually, it might be easy to spot a fake 318. The watch has a better movement and is better decorated

[masterkiller]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Has anyone contacted the NYC boutique? Has anyone talked to an AD or boutique? Has anyone talked to Panerai? Have all 150 watches been checked?

Point is, everyone just simply believes these couple photos from the internets and p.com.

It could very well be a hoax!

Do not you all think Panerai WOULD scream if this was an HOAX? They most likley would I think....

Should not ONE person post an picture of a PAM318 with an decorated movement if this was an HOAX??????...

If I owned one I would open my up to have a look at least....

/masterkiller

[MP5]

Originally Posted by RolexWatcher

EDIT - actually, it might be easy to spot a fake 318. The watch has a better movement and is better decorated

You would be right, they are better. Im sure they are scrambling to find a crappier movt to put in there now.

[Dickson Lim]

Originally Posted by RolexWatcher

I thought this is fact already? No idea...

Anyways, I am sure those POS fake PAM manufacturers find this highly amusing. They have been putting those movements in their watches for years and now their crappy watches are even more legit.

EDIT - actually, it might be easy to spot a fake 318. The watch has a better movement and is better decorated

Haha I did remembe I saw one replica with much better decorated 'asia' movement.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by masterkiller

Do not you all think Panerai WOULD scream if this was an HOAX? They most likley would I think....

Should not ONE person post an picture of a PAM318 with an decorated movement if this was an HOAX??????...

If I owned one I would open my up to have a look at least....

/masterkiller

(playing devil's advocate here, )

perhaps, but, look at their social media....pretty non-existant. i am not surprised that a company is not reacting to every internet rumor out there.....what's the obligation? and, maybe they think their customers aren't so gullible?

all i am saying is that i remain skeptical of alarmist pictures posted on the internet. especially ones that make no sense like this, and seems geared to get people to react with things like "if this is panerai quality, i'm not buying it/what a joke/what a disgrace/etc etc."

there are 150 examples out there....why have only one (or two) been shown? for all the big talkers out there, why hasn't anyone contacted anyone at the company or AD or boutique? where are the stories of people trying to get their money back from panerai?

it's just too easy to sit at the computer, form an opinion and type it.

anywho, for me, this isn't so much about the watch anymore....just general ubstantiated internet hysteria that too many people take as "fact" at face value. i guess it's a pet peeve of mine, .

Just my two cents....

[unknown]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

(playing devil's advocate here, )

perhaps, but, look at their social media....pretty non-existant. i am not surprised that a company is not reacting to every internet rumor out there.....what's the obligation? and, maybe they think their customers aren't so gullible?

all i am saying is that i remain skeptical of alarmist pictures posted on the internet. especially ones that make no sense like this, and seems geared to get people to react with things like "if this is panerai quality, i'm not buying it/what a joke/what a disgrace/etc etc."

there are 150 examples out there....why have only one (or two) been shown? for all the big talkers out there, why hasn't anyone contacted anyone at the company or AD or boutique? where are the stories of people trying to get their money back from panerai?

it's just too easy to sit at the computer, form an opinion and type it.

anywho, for me, this isn't so much about the watch anymore....just general ubstantiated internet hysteria that too many people take as "fact" at face value. i guess it's a pet peeve of mine, .

Just my two cents....

Sir,

It was me who made and wrote this review.
On timezone and on this forum I use the name 'unknown' on others like Paneristi, Horomundi and the purists I use my first name 'bruno'

I bought my first interesting watch 20 years ago, it was a 16610.
Since that time I becam addicted and I read a lot about all different brands.
I won't say I'm a watch genius, not even close. But I dare to say I know what I'm talking about.

Panerai is a brand which I discovered around 2001 so also 10 years ago.

I'm on watch related sites since more than 10 years (timezone was the first)

Now, do you really think I would make this up ???

Believe me, EVERYTHING I wrote and every picture I took is 100% genuine!


Best regards,
Bruno

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by unknown

Sir,

It was me who made and wrote this review.
On timezone and on this forum I use the name 'unknown' on others like Paneristi, Horomundi and the purists I use my first name 'bruno'

I bought my first interesting watch 20 years ago, it was a 16610.
Since that time I becam addicted and I read a lot about all different brands.
I won't say I'm a watch genius, not even close. But I dare to say I know what I'm talking about.

Panerai is a brand which I discovered around 2001 so also 10 years ago.

I'm on watch related sites since more than 10 years (timezone was the first)

Now, do you really think I would make this up ???

Believe me, EVERYTHING I wrote and every picture I took is 100% genuine!


Best regards,
Bruno

didn't mean to single anyone out and am not trying to step on anyone's toes....just making the devil's advocate point that who knows for sure on the internet?

anyway, to keep going down this line (and, just for the sake of argument, i am not trying to insult you), let's agree that you are not making anything up and your post and review is totally genuine from you. okay, and, your heart is in the right place with watches, etc., but, i would say, not everyone loves watches just for the sake of loving watches. someone may have swapped these movements in a couple of watches and your contact didn't know. now the internet hysteria has taken over, claiming that panerai, at best, has bad quality control, or, at worst, is screwing people and selling them the brooklyn bridge. or, to be shorter, you and your contact could have simply been fooled by someone. to me, that's as equally plausible as thinking panerai would make such a mistake.

i don't know. for me, i need more "proof" before i believe internet forum chatter, especially concerning something like this (or the 339 issue).

[unknown]

Originally Posted by ed21x

putting a cheap $60 movement into a pam does not a 'collector item' make. You can easily buy this movement on ebay and put it into your pam if you want to. what I find even sadder is that it's not just the finishing, but this is actually the lowest grade movement out there- you can tell because it doesn't have the incabloc shock protection, which also means the following:

"There are also upgraded parts made with different alloys and materials in the higher grades. The Standard and Elaboré calibers use Etachoc shock protection, a nickel balance wheel with a Nivarox 2 alloy hairspring, a Nivaflex NO mainspring, a steel pallet lever and escape wheel, and polyruby pallet jewels. The Top and Chronometre calibers use Incabloc shock protection, a Glucydur balance wheel with an Anchron alloy hairspring, a Nivaflex NM mainspring, a Nivarox pallet lever and escape wheel, and ruby pallet jewels. "

These are huge differences that affect the performance of the movement. I would certainly not want these factors making my watch 'collectable.'

FIRST ; To be clear, I'm not interested in possible future value
Because this is something nobody can predict.

But I completely disagree with this: 'putting a cheap $60 movement into a pam does not a 'collector item' make. You can easily buy this movement on ebay and put it into your pam if you want to. '

a/ you can buy a cheap movement and switch it but that doesn't make any sense. Put it in a PAM111 and everybody knows it's not supposed to be there so everybody will know somebody messed up the 111.
The 318 is a different story, It was Panerai who put the unfinished Unitas in a real Panerai

b/ imo it is exactly this kind of exceptions that make a certain piece collectible. The quality of the movement doesn't matter in this case but the fact that Panerai made only 150 of these and they made more than half a million watches since 1997 makes it very rare. Panerai used all kind of movements. Today 8 inhouse but still a lot of Unitas movements. In the past they also used Rolex, Angulus, Girard Perregaux, JLC , Minerva, Lémania, Zenith, and I could go on and on and on.
The thing is that ALL these looked very good. It was not necessary to modify a Zenith of JLC because these were top notch but when they used an inferior like a Unitas they put a lot of work in it to upgrade it.
So EVERY Panerai had a good movement at the end .... except these 150

And this might make the 318 collectible.

c/ I could compare it with a red 1680. It is the same as a white dial 1680 but since the first is more rare, people collect them and pay more for them.
Or why do people pay twice the price for a Panerai 292 with PIG ont the dial if you can have one without PIG for half the price ? Who cares if a 16520 daytona has the 200 or 400 bezel ? Collectors do !
In this case it's not about quality but rarity!.


Conclusion.
I don't care if it's value would go up or down in the future but it does have the characteristics to become a sought after collectors item. Just because it is rare. An imo wrong movement is imo much more important than a futility like a 'fat 4 green sub' or 'some red writing on a dial' or 'a pig on a dial' or ...

[unknown]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

didn't mean to single anyone out and am not trying to step on anyone's toes....just making the devil's advocate point that who knows for sure on the internet?

anyway, to keep going down this line (and, just for the sake of argument, i am not trying to insult you), let's agree that you are not making anything up and your post and review is totally genuine from you. okay, and, your heart is in the right place with watches, etc., but, i would say, not everyone loves watches just for the sake of loving watches. someone may have swapped these movements in a couple of watches and your contact didn't know. now the internet hysteria has taken over, claiming that panerai, at best, has bad quality control, or, at worst, is screwing people and selling them the brooklyn bridge. or, to be shorter, you and your contact could have simply been fooled by someone. to me, that's as equally plausible as thinking panerai would make such a mistake.

i don't know. for me, i need more "proof" before i believe internet forum chatter, especially concerning something like this (or the 339 issue).

In the US 2 or 3 were opened and they had this movement
A guy from Italy contacted a few other Paneristi who had the 318. He found 6 or 7 of them and they all had that movement.
It's a small world and it's not that difficult to find some of these watches if you know a group of collectors.

Besides, could you tell me why they called this movement the OP XXIX and why they only used this movement for this limited edition ? (only 150 ever made)
giving it another name has a reason.

Imo it was a mistake so they could not name it the OPII what I should be.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by unknown

In the US 2 or 3 were opened and they had this movement
A guy from Italy contacted a few other Paneristi who had the 318. He found 6 or 7 of them and they all had that movement.
It's a small world and it's not that difficult to find some of these watches if you know a group of collectors.

Besides, could you tell me why they called this movement the OP XXIX and why they only used this movement for this limited edition ? (only 150 ever made)
giving it another name has a reason.

Imo it was a mistake so they could not name it the OPII what I should be.

okay, i'm definitely a lot less skeptical now.....what a strange/interesting story this is.

[psv]

I'm not sure I agree with the derogatory term "internet hysteria". People do have the right to express their opinion in this case (no pun intended).

By the way, I used to own the 318. I bought it directly from the boutique. I moved it because I found it didn't keep the time very well and the power reserve appeared to be way less than stated. The notion that this becomes "collectible" is something only Paneristis would dream up. I can understand that a coin or stamp with a production fault becomes collectible or extra valuable, but those irregularities were not made man-made but rather manufacturing mistakes that somehow slipped through quality control. This is a corporate scam, Panerai behaving like a profit-center instead of a respectable watch-maker that cares out its customers and takes great pride in the products it produces.

Sure, hardcore believers will try to spin this into something positive; try to make lemonade out of these lemons; but as far as I am concerned - call it internet hysteria if you want - Panerai's brand and image has received a major black eye.