Tony (Spartan) Manikis Should be banned from TRF forum

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by Jocke

It's up to each one how they do, I was just explaining how I am doing.

Let's say you buy a watch with fake parts that can not be checked without taking apart the whole watch.
Do you do this before selling it to the buyer to be completely safe?

I'm just curious.

You are of course right.

[kleman]

Originally Posted by mfnj

Wow, I don't know you at all but in all honesty I liked you much better in the other thread. Now, I am not so sure

Agree.
And I start to be bothered with that thrusted seller status here. Other members are not less than you.

EDIT : I refer to the OP, of course. Not to other thrusted sellers, while they behave and comply with their obligations.

[Tridor]

Originally Posted by Jocke

It's up to each one how they do, I was just explaining how I am doing.

Let's say you buy a watch with fake parts that can not be checked without taking apart the whole watch.
Do you do this before selling it to the buyer to be completely safe?

I'm just curious.

Unless otherwise stated, the seller is responsible, in all respects, for ensuring the authenticity of the product he sells.
I don't care whether it is allegedly difficult to identify an aftermarket crystal ... If the watch is being sold as an authentic Rolex, then that is the burden the seller bears, even if it means taking the entire watch apart. If the seller mistakenly tenders a watch with one or more aftermarket parts, he should pay to have those parts replaced with genuine, OEM parts. Period. End of story. No excuses accepted. This is why I urge caution when buying used, regardless of the seller's reputation. Here, that purportedly stellar reputation turned out to be about as valuable as Confederate currency.

[Presa canary]

Wow... Talk about putting a foot in your mouth. You've gone from being a trusted seller, to trying to get someone banned for buying your counterfeit watch and wanting it corrected! Hopefully this gets resolved, ie the seller gives the $200 for the authentic crystal, or who knows how long the buying/selling aspect will be allowed around here...

[Jocke]

Originally Posted by Tridor

Unless otherwise stated, the seller is responsible, in all respects, for ensuring the authenticity of the product he sells.
I don't care whether it is allegedly difficult to identify an aftermarket crystal ... If the watch is being sold as an authentic Rolex, then that is the burden the seller bears, even if it means taking the entire watch apart. If the seller mistakenly tenders a watch with one or more aftermarket parts, he should pay to have those parts replaced with genuine, OEM parts. Period. End of story. No excuses accepted. This is why I urge caution when buying used, regardless of the seller's reputation. Here, that purportedly stellar reputation turned out to be about as valuable as Confederate currency.

What I mean is that it's impossible to be responsible for anything that looks correct but is not on examining it more closely
by disassembling it into its component parts. I might have serviced my watch at an independent watchmaker who then
installed wrong parts without providing information about this. Where should the responsibility lie as much in the buyer
that he examines it, he buys through to disassemble the watch into its component parts, I think.

Now I'm talking in general, then it's another thing how sellers and buyers solve their disputes.

This is the reason that my survivors will have to sell my watches. I would never bother with all this fuss about scratches
here and there, seconds here and there and I would never even be able to guarantee that everything is perfectly correct
with my watches. I guess there is a lot of watches floating around with wrong parts, today you can never be sure.

[Tridor]

Sorry, Jocke ... I disagree. If one represents a piece to be authentic, then he'd best be certain that it is. And, if it turns out to be counterfeit, the counterfeit parts should be replaced by OEM parts without charge or a full refund should be provided. The burden is on the seller, not the buyer. Here, the buyer was quite reasonable in wanting only the aftermarket crystal replaced; however, the seller made an international case out of it and now we have all this. The seller's reputation has been, no doubt, harmed significantly by his own actions or omissions as the case may be ... all over a $200 crystal. Not worth it, IMHO. As my late father, may he rest in peace, used to say ... "when you buy used, you buy other people's problems." That is very true in this instance.

[Wllnv19]

Pay the money for the crystal...end of story everyone's happy.

[FTX I]

Originally Posted by Tridor

As my late father, may he rest in peace, used to say ... "when you buy used, you buy other people's problems."

Wise words. Thanks for sharing.

[Jocke]

Originally Posted by Tridor

Sorry, Jocke ... I disagree. If one represents a piece to be authentic, then he'd best be certain that it is. And, if it turns out to be counterfeit, the counterfeit parts should be replaced by OEM parts without charge or a full refund should be provided. The burden is on the seller, not the buyer. Here, the buyer was quite reasonable in wanting only the aftermarket crystal replaced; however, the seller made an international case out of it and now we have all this. The seller's reputation has been, no doubt, harmed significantly by his own actions or omissions as the case may be ... all over a $200 crystal. Not worth it, IMHO. As my late father, may he rest in peace, used to say ... "when you buy used, you buy other people's problems." That is very true in this instance.

I mean generally when selling / buying used items that are tainted with hidden defects.

How this case will be solved is the problem of those involved how they will be perceived in the future.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by Jocke

This is the reason that my survivors will have to sell my watches.

Yes, selling all these frankenwatches will be a real nightmare!

Just put me in your last will and I'll deal with it!

[Jocke]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Yes, selling all these frankenwatches will be a real nightmare!

Just put me in your last will and I'll deal with it!

At least I use genuine parts.

You have to call my wife about the will.

[Wesley Crusher]

Originally Posted by Jocke

What I mean is that it's impossible to be responsible for anything that looks correct but is not on examining it more closely
by disassembling it into its component parts. I might have serviced my watch at an independent watchmaker who then
installed wrong parts without providing information about this. Where should the responsibility lie as much in the buyer
that he examines it, he buys through to disassemble the watch into its component parts, I think.

It is the seller's responsibility 100% of the time. It doesn't matter if the buyer notices a counterfeit part 1 week after receiving the watch or 1 year later. Sometimes, the seller may honestly not know that there were counterfeit parts, but that is the cost of doing business. It is their responsibility to make things right.

[Andrés G]

Originally Posted by Wesley Crusher

It is the seller's responsibility 100% of the time. It doesn't matter if the buyer notices a counterfeit part 1 week after receiving the watch or 1 year later. Sometimes, the seller may honestly not know that there were counterfeit parts, but that is the cost of doing business. It is their responsibility to make things right.

I agree. That's what I would do.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Wesley Crusher

It is the seller's responsibility 100% of the time. It doesn't matter if the buyer notices a counterfeit part 1 week after receiving the watch or 1 year later. Sometimes, the seller may honestly not know that there were counterfeit parts, but that is the cost of doing business. It is their responsibility to make things right.

That.


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[Jocke]

Originally Posted by Wesley Crusher

It is the seller's responsibility 100% of the time. It doesn't matter if the buyer notices a counterfeit part 1 week after receiving the watch or 1 year later. Sometimes, the seller may honestly not know that there were counterfeit parts, but that is the cost of doing business. It is their responsibility to make things right.

Does this apply only dealers?

[Wesley Crusher]

Originally Posted by Jocke

Does this apply only dealers?

No, it applies to every seller. The only difference is that trusted sellers / dealers have a lot more to lose. If a seller tarnishes his reputation, he will lose many potential buyers. That can equate to tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of lost dollars over the years.

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by Goiguidoc

1. The seller has great reputation
2. It it's very difficult to spot an aftermarket crystal glass
3. Refunding the value of the glass would be fair and would contribute to point number 1
4. The 2 threads are useless
5. I would not ban the seller and the buyer, but they should sort this out privately
6. I will deal again with TempoKing

Originally Posted by Wllnv19

Pay the money for the crystal...end of story everyone's happy.

[Jocke]

Originally Posted by Wesley Crusher

No, it applies to every seller. The only difference is that trusted sellers / dealers have a lot more to lose. If a seller tarnishes his reputation, he will lose many potential buyers. That can equate to tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of lost dollars over the years.

Let's say you will sell a used watch that you have serviced, how will you make sure everything is correct before you sell it?

Thinking about nowdays we do not even know if we get the original medicine from the pharmacy.

So it's not easy to be sure, sometimes it's not what it looks like. And as I state before how the sellers solve things is another story.

[Tridor]

If you're not 100% sure as to the authenticity, then don't advertise it as authentic.

[DCgator]

Originally Posted by ArcticMoose

I just took six watches that I bought three or four years ago in for service. What I paid for them originally, and how much time has passed since the purchase, is irrelevant. They were sold as original, so original is what I expect the service technician to find. Any other result will lead to words with the seller.

Bingo! My sentiments exactly....

[DCgator]

Originally Posted by Tridor

If you're not 100% sure as to the authenticity, then don't advertise it as authentic.

This!!

I submit that if the FS ad says something other than authentic 100% Rolex I doubt very many will still buy used and take the chance that some parts may not be OEM and are aftermarket replacement parts (crystal, dial, crown, mechanism, etc).

[Wesley Crusher]

Originally Posted by Jocke

Let's say you will sell a used watch that you have serviced, how will you make sure everything is correct before you sell it?

Thinking about nowdays we do not even know if we get the original medicine from the pharmacy.

So it's not easy to be sure, sometimes it's not what it looks like. And as I state before how the sellers solve things is another story.

You're right. It can be hard to tell what is original and what is not, but like I said, that is the cost of doing business. It sucks, but it is what it is. If the seller is smart and values his reputation, he will bite the bullet and make things right.

[powerfunk]

You keep mentioning the cost of doing business. Jocke is asking about the hobbyist flippers that don't do it as a business. Would you still demand unlimited liability for aftermarket parts years after the sale? I'm merely agreeing that it's a tough issue.

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[greekbum]

I have no beef in this whatsoever but has anybody proven the crystal to be a fake or counterfeit? There is a lot of emotions here as to somebody selling counterfeit parts on a watch and imho this is totally wrong and misleading. No they have not and i will tell you right here why they have not and cannot. Rolex did not make there own crystals in this time period and they are not marked as Rolex. So if 1 uses the word or term counterfeit they are wrong and i doubt that Rolex would write this on any Rolex letter head estimate. 2 non Rolex crystal term or wording would even be 100% correct as they did not make the crystal to begin with. So crystal gurus out the please tell us how on this specific crystal one can claim counterfeit or even aftermarket? Please produce a document from Rolex that says the crystal is counterfeit. If I bought a watch from somebody and I thought a part was fake etc i would think i would have to prove it to try and get something out of the seller. Im done here but would really like to see a document on how somebody came to the conclusion the crystal was counterfeit? Anybody?

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by greekbum

I have no beef in this whatsoever but has anybody proven the crystal to be a fake or counterfeit? There is a lot of emotions here as to somebody selling counterfeit parts on a watch and imho this is totally wrong and misleading. No they have not and i will tell you right here why they have not and cannot. Rolex did not make there own crystals in this time period and they are not marked as Rolex. So if 1 uses the word or term counterfeit they are wrong and i doubt that Rolex would write this on any Rolex letter head estimate. 2 non Rolex crystal term or wording would even be 100% correct as they did not make the crystal to begin with. So crystal gurus out the please tell us how on this specific crystal one can claim counterfeit or even aftermarket? Please produce a document from Rolex that says the crystal is counterfeit. If I bought a watch from somebody and I thought a part was fake etc i would think i would have to prove it to try and get something out of the seller. Im done here but would really like to see a document on how somebody came to the conclusion the crystal was counterfeit? Anybody?

With this I agree and in all fairness I think Tony should provide the evidence from Rolex.

[Wesley Crusher]

Originally Posted by powerfunk

You keep mentioning the cost of doing business. Jocke is asking about the hobbyist flippers that don't do it as a business. Would you still demand unlimited liability for aftermarket parts years after the sale? I'm merely agreeing that it's a tough issue.

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I answered his question. It applies to every seller, professional or hobbyist. If a watch is advertised as 100% authentic (unless noted otherwise, every watch sold here should be assumed 100% authentic), I would absolutely hold the seller responsible. With vintage pieces, it can be a real pain in the ass.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Jocke

What I mean is that it's impossible to be responsible for anything that looks correct but is not on examining it more closely
by disassembling it into its component parts. I might have serviced my watch at an independent watchmaker who then
installed wrong parts without providing information about this. Where should the responsibility lie as much in the buyer
that he examines it, he buys through to disassemble the watch into its component parts, I think.

Now I'm talking in general, then it's another thing how sellers and buyers solve their disputes.

This is the reason that my survivors will have to sell my watches. I would never bother with all this fuss about scratches
here and there, seconds here and there and I would never even be able to guarantee that everything is perfectly correct
with my watches. I guess there is a lot of watches floating around with wrong parts, today you can never be sure.

Echoing Jocke's sentiments, as any reasonable person knows, there are 10s-of-thousands of Rolex watches out there fitted with aftermarket parts!!! I don't know how anyone selling a Rolex would know if each part is genuine since they are not trademarked or hallmarked and most appear identical to genuine parts.

The best solution for those concerned about buying preowned is to buy new and forget about what is and isn't a genuine Rolex part. The Rolex "machine" is a marketing genius, either all Rolex or it is "counterfeit."

It makes me wonder what is and what isn't genuine or real anymore. Besides my Rolex being possibly counterfeit, according to Rolex standards, I'm afraid to have my truck serviced with non-Ford parts for fear of it being called counterfeit if I replace the struts with Monroematics or a Sears "Diehard" battery.

All I know is, from now on, I'm going to use Ford's oil, air filters, wiper blades, batteries, shocks, service tire recommendations etc on my F-150 if it needs anything replaced or serviced. Nothing counterfeit will do for me.

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by springer

Echoing Jocke's sentiments, as any reasonable person knows, there are 10s-of-thousands of Rolex watches out there fitted with aftermarket parts!!! I don't know how anyone selling a Rolex would know if each part is genuine since they are not trademarked or hallmarked and most appear identical to genuine parts.

The best solution for those concerned about buying preowned is to buy new and forget about what is and isn't a genuine Rolex part. The Rolex "machine" is a marketing genius, either all Rolex or it is "counterfeit."

It makes me wonder what is and what isn't genuine or real anymore. Besides my Rolex being possibly counterfeit, according to Rolex standards, I'm afraid to have my truck serviced with non-Ford parts for fear of it being called counterfeit if I replace the struts with Monroematics or a Sears "Diehard" battery.

All I know is, from now on, I'm going to use Ford's oil, air filters, wiper blades, batteries, shocks, service tire recommendations etc on my F-150 if it needs anything replaced or serviced. Nothing counterfeit will do for me.

Most Ford parts are made in China anyway but assembled in the US.

[greekbum]

Originally Posted by MonBK

With this I agree and in all fairness I think Tony should provide the evidence from Rolex.

The op in his original post said this :I was shocked, to say the least, when I received the estimate of $1600 from Rolex! Not so much the fact that there were worn out gaskets and that the watch had zero waterproof protection, or that any of the near 30 year old parts that need replacing. No, I was shocked because Rolex refused to repair it unless I would replace the COUNTERFEIT crystal on the watch first.



To put this to rest will the OP post a document from Rolex on Rolex letterhead that says exactly what he wrote :
(No, I was shocked because Rolex refused to repair it unless I would replace the COUNTERFEIT crystal on the watch first.)

Tony Does the estimate say counterfeit crystal as you said it did?

An unsolicited PM from a friend of yours to me said he has seen it and according to what he wrote me I don't see the word counterfeit ?

My interest is in the crystal topic not the dealings of these 2 members. The Oysterquartz and the 1530 before it were the 1st Rolex watches that used sapphire crystals. They had many suppliers of crystals over the years. So what's real ,aftermarket , counterfeit and fake is what I want to know?

[Tridor]

Originally Posted by springer

Echoing Jocke's sentiments, as any reasonable person knows, there are 10s-of-thousands of Rolex watches out there fitted with aftermarket parts!!! I don't know how anyone selling a Rolex would know if each part is genuine since they are not trademarked or hallmarked and most appear identical to genuine parts.

The best solution for those concerned about buying preowned is to buy new and forget about what is and isn't a genuine Rolex part. The Rolex "machine" is a marketing genius, either all Rolex or it is "counterfeit."

It makes me wonder what is and what isn't genuine or real anymore. Besides my Rolex being possibly counterfeit, according to Rolex standards, I'm afraid to have my truck serviced with non-Ford parts for fear of it being called counterfeit if I replace the struts with Monroematics or a Sears "Diehard" battery.

All I know is, from now on, I'm going to use Ford's oil, air filters, wiper blades, batteries, shocks, service tire recommendations etc on my F-150 if it needs anything replaced or serviced. Nothing counterfeit will do for me.

If this is the concern, then a seller's ad should recite that not all parts may be OEM Rolex. But, you see, if most of the power sellers here did that, they likely would not sell in the quantities desired. This is a fairly lucrative business for them, and they cannot afford to turn business away by such advertising, particularly since most TRFers insist on the genuine article in complete form. So, it appears that most take the chance of presuming rather than confirming authenticity, because confirmation costs money and eats into their profit margins. If a problem arises post-sale, most sellers likely will take care of it to the satisfaction of the buyer; that is simply the cost of doing business. The sellers cannot have it both ways ... they either must be scrupulous in ensuring the watch is authentic as advertised or they must disclose any doubt as to authenticity. At a minimum, they should state that the sale is made on an "as is" basis in order to cover themselves, but that could drive away potential purchasers since it may cast doubt upon the bona fides of the watch.