DOXA and German Army

[ravenhome777]

I kind of like DOXA watches, but I did some research into the history of the watch brand and it looks like during WWII they manufactured watches for the German Army. This was not uncommon. There are quite a few brands that manufactured Luftwaffe watches for the airforce.

I actually like the style of the watches, and at one point I wanted to purchase one, but the history just didn't sit right with me.

I was almost ready to pull the trigger on a DOXA watch, but then I discovered their history with making Luftwaffe watches for the German Army. Again, I'm in a predicament of not wanting to purchase this watch brand because of this history.

Of course, the founder of DOXA, Georges Ducommun, passed away before WWII even began. Who's to say whether he would have favored doing business with the German Army, or been opposed.

In any case, I'm again in the position of making a decision about whether or not I should purchase a watch because of its connection to WWII.

[ravenhome777]

Here is an example of a DOXA Luftwaffe watch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ExtremelyRa...QAAOSwBQ1eA23j

[WatchEater666]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought companies were more or less forced to do so as they were essentially nationalized to make war time products?

Almost all major companies operating around then including car companies have a history manufacturing for the Nazis. I don't think it's representative of who they are today.

[Psmith]

Seems a bit silly to me - DOXA are a different company than they were 75+ years ago, and purchasing a watch from them now will help Project AWARE protect the ocean.

If you extend the 'WWII' logic, there are a vast range of products to boycott (German, Japanese and Italian auto makers for starters, and those owned by them e.g. Bentley), not to mention watches by IWC, Stowa, Laco, A. Lange & Söhne and Wempe. In fact IWC supplied watches to both the Allied and Axis forces, and three of the above used Swiss movements including Unitas so there is a link to ETA - who also supplied parts to Rolex for a long time, and whose movements power countless watches today. Where does one decide that the web of links ends?

[ravenhome777]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought companies were more or less forced to do so as they were essentially nationalized to make war time products?

Almost all major companies operating around then including car companies have a history manufacturing for the Nazis. I don't think it's representative of who they are today.

Were they forced to make products for the Nazis? I would be interested to read some history about this. I know Switzerland has historically always been neutral concerning their foreign policy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_neutrality). So it seems like some of these watch companies had the opportunity to chose sides. I know Laco was pretty heavily involved in making Luftwaffe time pieces. I almost pulled the trigger on a Laco awhile back, but then I learned about this history and it didn't sit right with me. DOXA didn't seem to be as heavily into supplying the Nazis as Laco, but the Luftwaffe watches are still in existence, so they did play a role in this. Were they producing time pieces for both sides? I'm not sure.

I think Rolex took a pretty firm stance against the Nazis as Wilsdorf originated from Germany, but spent a lot of time in England. There are some documents in existence of Wilsdorf sending replacement Rolex watches to soldiers who had them taken by the Nazis when they were put in POW camps. It talks a little bit about this on the wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Wilsdorf).

But, you're right. Where do you draw the line? Would you not own a BMW or a VW? Would you not work for IBM? It's hard to say. But, there's just something that doesn't quite sit right with me to spend a good chunk of hard earned money on a watch and have these associations. Of course, then again, who am I to say what it was like back then? I don't know what the social pressures were like. I don't know what it would have been like to be the owner of a watch company in Switzerland in the 1940s. I don't know what the political pressures were to these businessmen at the time. If it was a choice between going out of business or supplying Nazis with timepieces, would I have been bold enough to come out on the right side of history? I hope my moral compass would have been strong enough, but who's to say?

I have a very limited knowledge of Swiss history, but I know Switzerland is broken up into Cantons, and they all have a very strong, and very different history and origin. I visited the Davos area of Switzerland once, and the hotel owner and I had a conversation about Swiss history and she mentioned that Switzerland is very clique-y. This is partially due to the language barriers and the amount of languages spoken in the country. She said generally you didn't leave your Canton. You just stayed in your mountain valley for your whole life and kept your farm. Because of this isolation, even if you spoke German, and there was another valley next to you that also spoke German, your language evolved to a state where you could tell which valley you were from based on the way you spoke German.

So, it's kind of a long-winded way of me reaching this point, but if you lived in cultural isolation in your valley, you had your watch company there, and everyone in your valley had German backgrounds and they had pro-Nazi tendencies, would you also have pro-Nazi tendencies? Perhaps you would due to social pressures alone? Even if you weren't pro-Nazi, you may be forced into making products for the Nazis for fear of your families' safety. That's powerful leverage and it could force you to make decisions that you otherwise might not be inclined to make. It kind of muddies the waters a bit.

[joli160]

At that time all companies in occupied Europe worked for the Germans.
Not a lot of options for them really.

Exclude one of them ?

[scarlet knight]

Wasn’t Panerai made for the Italian Navy? No one working for Doxa today worked there in WW2. I would let them off the hook.

[ravenhome777]

I thought Switzerland was never occupied by the Nazis. My understanding is that Hitler didn't feel it was worth his effort attacking them because of their neutrality. I think he assumed he'd use his forces on the rest of Europe, and once they were nullified, Switzerland would be an easy target. I could be wrong.

I am more interested in vintage DOXA around the 50's era. But, you're correct, I believe the Jenny family purchased the company in '97. Essentially it is a different company than it once was, under new ownership.

[ravenhome777]

There is a history of DOXA on wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxa_S.A.

There is also some further information on the Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20060118...m/history.htm#

However, there seems to be a blind spot in their history from the point of time when Georges Ducommun dies in 1936 until the 1960s. I wonder who owned the company for those 30 years. Did it stay in the Ducommun family? They certainly were producing a significant amount of watches at that time.

Apparently there was a Jenny brand of watch from the 1960s onward:
https://monochrome-watches.com/jenny...watch-history/

Yes, but it's difficult to uncover any information about the brand for that 30 year period. Who owned the company during that period of time?

It was located in Le Locle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Locle

There is an interesting paragraph here:
As in most watchmaking cities in the Jura, the political and social life in Le Locle was heavily influenced by the ideas of radicalism, socialism and later anarchism. Professor James Guillaume proposed the creation of a section of the Workers International in 1866. German-speaking socialist organizations including the Grütliverein and the Arbeiterverein testify that by the end of the 19th Century, many workers from the German-speaking Switzerland worked in Le Locle. The Socialists organized themselves into a political party in 1897 and by 1912 were a majority in the municipality. In 1956, they allied and were supported by the Swiss Party of Labour. The Socialists lost their seat in the local government council in the 1992 elections, to the movement Droit de parole, which does not have a traditional party platform. In 2004, for the first time the council was determined by a plebiscite, which gave the Swiss Party of Labour (PdA) three seats, the Social Democratic Party of Switzerland (PS) and the liberale Parti progressiste national one seat each.

[ravenhome777]

In 1956, they allied and were supported by the Swiss Party of Labour.

Swiss Party of Labour:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Party_of_Labour

[ravenhome777]

This is getting deeper still:

The party was founded in 1944 by the illegal Communist Party of Switzerland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commun...of_Switzerland

Communist Party of Switzerland:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commun...of_Switzerland

Communist Party of Switzerland (Kommunistische Partei der Schweiz), known as the "Old Communists" (Altkommunisten), was a historical Communist party, section of the Communist International.

The Party originated from a group of dissidents who were expelled from the Social Democratic Party of Switzerland in 1918. Fritz Platten was a central leader in the new Party.[1]

The Swiss Communist Party was banned in 1940 because of their support of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, the non-aggression pact between the Soviet Union and the Third Reich.[2] In 1944 some of its leading members founded the Swiss Party of Labour to replace the old Communist Party.

Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloto...ibbentrop_Pact

The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union that enabled those two powers to partition Poland between them. The pact was signed in Moscow on 23 August 1939 by German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop and Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov[1] and was officially known as the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.[2]

And this all comes back full circle to a Nazi watch from Von Ribbentrop:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-new-play.html

[ravenhome777]

There was this guy too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Platten

[ravenhome777]

So it sounds like there's a lot more to the story about what was going on in Switzerland in our watch making community during the 1930s through the 1950s. There certainly was Nazi and Communist sympathizers in play. I wonder if there is a documentary somewhere that explains this whole thing.

[rolexless]

I suppose you don't own a German car then... But if you own any car at all, it almost certainly contains parts from German suppliers like Bosch or Schaeffler, which in WW2 directly exploited forced labor from camps.

The point is, collusion with the Nazi regime and complicity in its atrocities was too widespread in Europe to completely avoid dealing with companies that were embroiled in it

[ravenhome777]

Originally Posted by rolexless

I suppose you don't own a German car then... But if you own any car at all, it almost certainly contains parts from German suppliers like Bosch or Schaeffler, which in WW2 directly exploited forced labor from camps.

The point is, collusion with the Nazi regime and complicity in its atrocities was too widespread in Europe to completely avoid dealing with companies that were embroiled in it

This video explains the history a little bit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc6Q0QhsLVg

It sounds like Switzerland's neutrality policy was pushed the brink due to WWII and Nazi Germany, although they were able to continue with their policy as they were never invaded. They have a purely defensive policy, and they are never offensive.

Because they have no natural resources, they were in a position where they needed to due business with the Nazis because they controlled all of Europe. They were in an awkward position due to the Nazis and their neutrality policy.

It sounds like they were also dealing with a lot of internal turmoil because there was Nazi and communist sympathizers within the country. The majority of their ethnicity is German, and, of course, not all German's were supportive of the Nazi cause, some, of course were. Who knows what that percentage was, but it sounds like there were quite a few in the watch making districts.

I'm pretty ignorant to this history, so I'm learning as I go here.

[ravenhome777]

How the Swiss Protected Hitler's Gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQxhf-18Dcc

Switzerland's tarnished wartime record
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIL2ziI5rBA

SWITZERLAND: NAZI HOLOCAUST REPORT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=porFOf656Fw

Swiss-Nazi Agreement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOHKA67YroQ

How Switzerland Managed to Remain Neutral with WWI and WWII Raging Around Them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFh2zxQwxZI

[Burlington]

Many countries have terrible things in their past - and many companies still around today played roles within that.

I would say don’t write off the people of today and tomorrow for the actions of their country in the past.

[Psmith]

Originally Posted by scarlet knight

Wasn’t Panerai made for the Italian Navy? No one working for Doxa today worked there in WW2. I would let them off the hook.

Yes, Panerai were a supplier of not only watches but other equipment and instruments to the military (including the Egyptian navy). The early watches were designed & manufactured by Rolex and used Rolex movements (supplied by Cortébert, who also sold watches to Mussolini/Fascist-era Italy). Rolex also worked with DOXA to develop the helium gas escape valve for the Sea-Dweller.

Vintage Panerai with Rolex movement:

[kearez]

Seems like you don’t need any convincing to not buy a DOXA, you seem to want to convince others not buy them.

What happened in the past is in the past. If your not a huge fan, pass on it and pick another brand.

[tudorbaja27]

Oh lord

[Jackie Daytona]

Don’t start looking into Japanese companies or you’ll really be in trouble with that mindset with our reliance in electronics and Japanese automotive products these days.

[chinaski]

There were other watch companies that manufactured for the German Military as well.

Ferdinand Porsche was a close personal friend of Hitler. Hitler founded Volkswagen. Daimler Benz and BMW manufactured vehicles and aircraft engines for the war effort.

If the history doesn't sit well with you, don't buy German products.

[Psmith]

What say you, OP? Are you buying a DOXA?

[Justindo]

Purity tests are futile because no nation, no company, and no person can ever pass them because we are human. I'll grant you that there are degrees but it also depends on who is doing the judging. Every single thing and every single person in the world can be offensive to someone in some way. If you don't want to buy a DOXA for whatever reason, don't buy it but if you start investigating everything and everyone, you'll soon be disappointed by everything and everyone. Again, we're all human and, thus, a mixed bag.

[EEpro]

Woke Watches. Now that would be a great YouTube channel... for someone.

[interestedwatcher]

Wow. This thread is interesting... I'm going to go buy a Doxa.

[Paul7]

Originally Posted by ravenhome777

I kind of like DOXA watches, but I did some research into the history of the watch brand and it looks like during WWII they manufactured watches for the German Army. This was not uncommon. There are quite a few brands that manufactured Luftwaffe watches for the airforce.

I actually like the style of the watches, and at one point I wanted to purchase one, but the history just didn't sit right with me.

I was almost ready to pull the trigger on a DOXA watch, but then I discovered their history with making Luftwaffe watches for the German Army. Again, I'm in a predicament of not wanting to purchase this watch brand because of this history.

Of course, the founder of DOXA, Georges Ducommun, passed away before WWII even began. Who's to say whether he would have favored doing business with the German Army, or been opposed.

In any case, I'm again in the position of making a decision about whether or not I should purchase a watch because of its connection to WWII.

So you wouldn't drive a Mercedes?

[Paul7]

Originally Posted by Justindo

Purity tests are futile because no nation, no company, and no person can ever pass them because we are human. I'll grant you that there are degrees but it also depends on who is doing the judging. Every single thing and every single person in the world can be offensive to someone in some way. If you don't want to buy a DOXA for whatever reason, don't buy it but if you start investigating everything and everyone, you'll soon be disappointed by everything and everyone. Again, we're all human and, thus, a mixed bag.

Exactly, the only perfect person was Jesus Christ, maybe we should just put up statues of Him.

[TK-710]

Just move on OP. DOXA doesn’t even make a watch worth all this research and angst. After completing a dissertation on the History of DOXA and drawing the conclusions you have do you think you’ll ever truly enjoy it? In fact you might want to consider a new hobby altogether considering the vast majority of quality watch brands are made in either European countries or Japan.

[Loevhagen]

So - if the logic in this thread should apply; I should avoid buying an e.g. Hamilton watch - and any goods manufactured in the US - since the US dropped two atomic bombs and killed many, many civilians?

No. Sometimes "logic" is not so loigic after all - and some overthink things way too much.

Agree with the former poster; just move on OP.