Complicated hand finished movements

[Crazywis]

With all references based on caliber CHR 27-527 PS now discontinued, anyone wanting hand finished sharp interior angles in a new PP watch would need to get into the MR territory. Are there any PP references or even alternatives (past or present) available in other brands satisfying the following criteria:

- Complicated wristwatch (the more complicated the better)
- Diameter between 36mm and 41mm with a display case-back
- Traditional hand finished rounded anglage
- Two or more handmade sharp interior angles
- 12.5mm or less case thickness if automatic
- 11.5mm or less case thickness if manually wound
- Bonus --> more than just the screws being black polished

PP reference 5950 fits this bill perfectly. The Laurent Ferrier classic traveller does fit too but is light on complexity.

What else would fit the bill?

[QuelleHeureEstIl]

https://watchesbysjx.com/2022/05/akr...ii-rrccii.html

Not really complicated. But the finish is amazing. Both the legendary case maker and Rexhep worked at PP.

For the little story... This summer I ate at one of my favorite Italian restaurant which happen to be next to the atelier. Peaking from the street and watching these artists work is magical especially during a sunny day in this nice old town.

[Crazywis]

Originally Posted by QuelleHeureEstIl

Not really complicated. But the finish is amazing. Both the legendary case maker and Rexhep worked at PP.

For the little story... This summer I ate at one of my favorite Italian restaurant which happen to be next to the atelier. Peaking from the street and watching these artists work is magical especially during a sunny day in this nice old town.

love the balance cock and the bridge holding the fourth wheel. The lugs remind me of the ones on the Philippe Dufour simplicity. Now only if I could get my hands on either one of these.....

[Vasco]

Coming to my mind, just based on your spec. list, I would have a look at:

- Laurent Ferrier
- Lemania-based chronographs (PP, Vacheron, Dubuis)
- Voutilainen chronographs
- Grönefeld
- Romain Gauthier maybe
- Lange (might be too thick though)

As a side note, there are excellently finished watches that don't always have inward angles (have a look at some Roger Smith pieces which is a reference in the world of watches) and that are still very fine pieces. The inward angles mater is often talked about but overshadows the fact some calibers which don't have them, may provide something more in other areas (finishing or technical).

[Crazywis]

Originally Posted by Vasco

Coming to my mind, just based on your spec. list, I would have a look at:

- Laurent Ferrier
- Lemania-based chronographs (PP, Vacheron, Dubuis)
- Voutilainen chronographs
- Grönefeld
- Romain Gauthier maybe
- Lange (might be too thick though)

As a side note, there are excellently finished watches that don't always have inward angles (have a look at some Roger Smith pieces which is a reference in the world of watches) and that are still very fine pieces. The inward angles mater is often talked about but overshadows the fact some calibers which don't have them, may provide something more in other areas (finishing or technical).

The Minerva caliber 13.21 based Montblanc monopusher chronographs also come to mind

[bobernet]

Originally Posted by Vasco

As a side note, there are excellently finished watches that don't always have inward angles (have a look at some Roger Smith pieces which is a reference in the world of watches) and that are still very fine pieces. The inward angles mater is often talked about but overshadows the fact some calibers which don't have them, may provide something more in other areas (finishing or technical).

Great call out. The interior angle focus has gotten a little out of hand, in my opinion. That is not the be-all end-all of movement finishing.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by Crazywis

The Minerva caliber 13.21 based Montblanc monopusher chronographs also come to mind

Indeed, I forgot this one. I discovered these new Montablanc Minervas in 2012, they look very nice.

Originally Posted by bobernet

Great call out. The interior angle focus has gotten a little out of hand, in my opinion. That is not the be-all end-all of movement finishing.

Exactly, I totally agree.

[Crazywis]

Originally Posted by Vasco

As a side note, there are excellently finished watches that don't always have inward angles (have a look at some Roger Smith pieces which is a reference in the world of watches) and that are still very fine pieces. The inward angles mater is often talked about but overshadows the fact some calibers which don't have them, may provide something more in other areas (finishing or technical).

Absolutely - it is just one of many characteristics possible in a design but when combined with other finishing techniques, is fairly easy for the untrained eye to notice and appreciate. The technical aspects of a movement can be another dimension though.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by Crazywis

Absolutely - it is just one of many characteristics possible in a design but when combined with other finishing techniques, is fairly easy for the untrained eye to notice and appreciate. The technical aspects of a movement can be another dimension though.

Indeed, and I would say even also in terms of finishing. For instance, if you look at the new 31-260 minirotor caliber (5236P, 5326G), there is no inward angles but the work on the rest of the movement is excellent. It offers multiple bridges, with interesting curves, hence many more edges to be polished, it is really beautiful and complex (in terms of shapes).

With time, I noticed here and there that there are simpler movements outside Patek with 1 inward angle which are less interesting aesthetically wise (the technical side excluded).

Nevertheless, I totally understand the pleasure to select a movement with an inward angle, they are rather rare and nice to look at :)

[llngoc]

Haldimann H1 or H2?
Remy Cools Tourbillon

[Ichiran]

It's not so much the inward angle on anglage per se, but for some collectors, hand finishing is a desired aspect of luxury products, and at this point in time, inward angles on anglage cannot be machined and they are all done by skilled watchmakers or technicians by hand with wood/steel/diamond. Inward angle, hence, is a sure sign of hand-finishing.

To address another point, complications and hand-finishing are not mutually exclusive and you can get the very best of both worlds in Dufour Grande Sonnerie, Voutilainen Tantalor Decimal Repeater, Akrivia AK05 Tourbillon, Patek 6301, Lange Tourbillon Handwerkskunst, Breguet Classique Tourbillon Extra-Plat Squelette 5395, VC Malte Tourbillon 30130 just to name a few. Also, not all hand-finished movements are expensive - watchmakers like Felipe Pikullik does amazing hand-finishing for a mere few grands euros.

The only issue with hand-finished watches is they are produced very slowly and in very limited quantities, quite understandably, though rarity is another aspect of luxury products in my humble opinion.

Just want to emphasize I have nothing against machined watches, because my current collection is entirely made up of machined pieces and I love them. All said, I yearn to add a proper handmade watch to my collection. The Vingt-8 will be completed in 2026 and I can't wait to visit Kari and his team at his top-of-the-world workshop to collect it.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

It's not so much the inward angle on anglage per se, but for some collectors, hand finishing is a desired aspect of luxury products, and at this point in time, inward angles on anglage cannot be machined and they are all done by skilled watchmakers or technicians by hand with wood/steel/diamond. Inward angle, hence, is a sure sign of hand-finishing.

To address another point, complications and hand-finishing are not mutually exclusive and you can get the very best of both worlds in Dufour Grande Sonnerie, Voutilainen Tantalor Decimal Repeater, Akrivia AK05 Tourbillon, Patek 6301, Lange Tourbillon Handwerkskunst, Breguet Classique Tourbillon Extra-Plat Squelette 5395, VC Malte Tourbillon 30130 just to name a few. Also, not all hand-finished movements are expensive - watchmakers like Felipe Pikullik does amazing hand-finishing for a mere few grands euros.

The only issue with hand-finished watches is they are produced very slowly and in very limited quantities, quite understandably, though rarity is another aspect of luxury products in my humble opinion.

Just want to emphasize I have nothing against machined watches, because my current collection is entirely made up of machined pieces and I love them. All said, I yearn to add a proper handmade watch to my collection. The Vingt-8 will be completed in 2026 and I can't wait to visit Kari and his team at his top-of-the-world workshop to collect it.

I totally agree, there are so many possibilities as long as the watchmaker has the (rare) skill and the time available.

What I wished to emphasize is that these movements usually "don't have them all" (finishing techniques and details), often compromises are made.

As for the Vingt-8, I received mine in 2015 and can confirm the movement is outstanding. Excellent choice! Did you get his book, it's fantastic reading.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Vasco

As for the Vingt-8, I received mine in 2015 and can confirm the movement is outstanding. Excellent choice! Did you get his book, it's fantastic reading.

What config is your Vingt-8 please? Mind if you post a pic of your Vingt-8, if you will? I simply love to see different ideas

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

What config is your Vingt-8 please? Mind if you post a pic of your Vingt-8, if you will? I simply love to see different ideas

Have you decided on yours design yet?

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by llngoc

Have you decided on yours design yet?

Kari has not replied to my last proposal yet. This feels like I'm still at Episode 1: The Phantom Menace

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

What config is your Vingt-8 please? Mind if you post a pic of your Vingt-8, if you will? I simply love to see different ideas

With pleasure, I went for an unusual (for Kari's models) white lacquered dial (the one on the right). It was beautiful but I must admit that, with time, I got tired of it and would have preferred one of the guilloché patterns. The movement was frosted + rose gold. The case was in white gold.

[ButtButt]

Originally Posted by Vasco

With pleasure, I went for an unusual (for Kari's models) white lacquered dial (the one on the right). It was beautiful but I must admit that, with time, I got tired of it and would have preferred one of the guilloché patterns. The movement was frosted + rose gold. The case was in white gold.

Amazing, this is a dream level watch.

[Crazywis]

Originally Posted by Vasco

With pleasure, I went for an unusual (for Kari's models) white lacquered dial (the one on the right). It was beautiful but I must admit that, with time, I got tired of it and would have preferred one of the guilloché patterns. The movement was frosted + rose gold. The case was in white gold.

On another note, with the escapement on these, do you happen to know the spec'd rate tolerances and max rate difference between any two positions? And also have you happened to note the actual chronometric performance, especially on the wrist?

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Vasco

With pleasure, I went for an unusual (for Kari's models) white lacquered dial (the one on the right). It was beautiful but I must admit that, with time, I got tired of it and would have preferred one of the guilloché patterns. The movement was frosted + rose gold. The case was in white gold.

Is the one on the left an enamel?

Beautiful pair! And did you replace it with another Kari since you mentioned you got tired of the white dial?

[GB-man]

The interior hand finished angle is to finishing what the tourbillon is to complications. Proof of skill that only the nerdiest of nerds GAF about lol

[Crazywis]

Originally Posted by Crazywis

With all references based on caliber CHR 27-527 PS now discontinued, anyone wanting hand finished sharp interior angles in a new PP watch would need to get into the MR territory.

CHR 27-527 is back in reference 5373P. Any takers?