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Old 3 October 2022, 08:07 AM   #1
Crazywis
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Complicated hand finished movements

With all references based on caliber CHR 27-527 PS now discontinued, anyone wanting hand finished sharp interior angles in a new PP watch would need to get into the MR territory. Are there any PP references or even alternatives (past or present) available in other brands satisfying the following criteria:

- Complicated wristwatch (the more complicated the better)
- Diameter between 36mm and 41mm with a display case-back
- Traditional hand finished rounded anglage
- Two or more handmade sharp interior angles
- 12.5mm or less case thickness if automatic
- 11.5mm or less case thickness if manually wound
- Bonus --> more than just the screws being black polished

PP reference 5950 fits this bill perfectly. The Laurent Ferrier classic traveller does fit too but is light on complexity.

What else would fit the bill?
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Old 3 October 2022, 10:44 PM   #2
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https://watchesbysjx.com/2022/05/akr...ii-rrccii.html

Not really complicated. But the finish is amazing. Both the legendary case maker and Rexhep worked at PP.

For the little story... This summer I ate at one of my favorite Italian restaurant which happen to be next to the atelier. Peaking from the street and watching these artists work is magical especially during a sunny day in this nice old town.
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Old 4 October 2022, 12:19 AM   #3
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Coming to my mind, just based on your spec. list, I would have a look at:

- Laurent Ferrier
- Lemania-based chronographs (PP, Vacheron, Dubuis)
- Voutilainen chronographs
- Grönefeld
- Romain Gauthier maybe
- Lange (might be too thick though)

As a side note, there are excellently finished watches that don't always have inward angles (have a look at some Roger Smith pieces which is a reference in the world of watches) and that are still very fine pieces. The inward angles mater is often talked about but overshadows the fact some calibers which don't have them, may provide something more in other areas (finishing or technical).
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Old 4 October 2022, 06:01 AM   #4
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Coming to my mind, just based on your spec. list, I would have a look at:

- Laurent Ferrier
- Lemania-based chronographs (PP, Vacheron, Dubuis)
- Voutilainen chronographs
- Grönefeld
- Romain Gauthier maybe
- Lange (might be too thick though)

As a side note, there are excellently finished watches that don't always have inward angles (have a look at some Roger Smith pieces which is a reference in the world of watches) and that are still very fine pieces. The inward angles mater is often talked about but overshadows the fact some calibers which don't have them, may provide something more in other areas (finishing or technical).
The Minerva caliber 13.21 based Montblanc monopusher chronographs also come to mind
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Old 4 October 2022, 06:16 AM   #5
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Not really complicated. But the finish is amazing. Both the legendary case maker and Rexhep worked at PP.

For the little story... This summer I ate at one of my favorite Italian restaurant which happen to be next to the atelier. Peaking from the street and watching these artists work is magical especially during a sunny day in this nice old town.

love the balance cock and the bridge holding the fourth wheel. The lugs remind me of the ones on the Philippe Dufour simplicity. Now only if I could get my hands on either one of these.....
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Old 4 October 2022, 07:19 AM   #6
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As a side note, there are excellently finished watches that don't always have inward angles (have a look at some Roger Smith pieces which is a reference in the world of watches) and that are still very fine pieces. The inward angles mater is often talked about but overshadows the fact some calibers which don't have them, may provide something more in other areas (finishing or technical).
Great call out. The interior angle focus has gotten a little out of hand, in my opinion. That is not the be-all end-all of movement finishing.
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Old 4 October 2022, 07:24 AM   #7
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The Minerva caliber 13.21 based Montblanc monopusher chronographs also come to mind
Indeed, I forgot this one. I discovered these new Montablanc Minervas in 2012, they look very nice.

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Great call out. The interior angle focus has gotten a little out of hand, in my opinion. That is not the be-all end-all of movement finishing.
Exactly, I totally agree.
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Old 4 October 2022, 04:44 PM   #8
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As a side note, there are excellently finished watches that don't always have inward angles (have a look at some Roger Smith pieces which is a reference in the world of watches) and that are still very fine pieces. The inward angles mater is often talked about but overshadows the fact some calibers which don't have them, may provide something more in other areas (finishing or technical).
Absolutely - it is just one of many characteristics possible in a design but when combined with other finishing techniques, is fairly easy for the untrained eye to notice and appreciate. The technical aspects of a movement can be another dimension though.
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Old 4 October 2022, 04:51 PM   #9
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Absolutely - it is just one of many characteristics possible in a design but when combined with other finishing techniques, is fairly easy for the untrained eye to notice and appreciate. The technical aspects of a movement can be another dimension though.
Indeed, and I would say even also in terms of finishing. For instance, if you look at the new 31-260 minirotor caliber (5236P, 5326G), there is no inward angles but the work on the rest of the movement is excellent. It offers multiple bridges, with interesting curves, hence many more edges to be polished, it is really beautiful and complex (in terms of shapes).

With time, I noticed here and there that there are simpler movements outside Patek with 1 inward angle which are less interesting aesthetically wise (the technical side excluded).

Nevertheless, I totally understand the pleasure to select a movement with an inward angle, they are rather rare and nice to look at :)
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Old 4 October 2022, 06:45 PM   #10
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Haldimann H1 or H2?
Remy Cools Tourbillon
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Old 4 October 2022, 07:31 PM   #11
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It's not so much the inward angle on anglage per se, but for some collectors, hand finishing is a desired aspect of luxury products, and at this point in time, inward angles on anglage cannot be machined and they are all done by skilled watchmakers or technicians by hand with wood/steel/diamond. Inward angle, hence, is a sure sign of hand-finishing.

To address another point, complications and hand-finishing are not mutually exclusive and you can get the very best of both worlds in Dufour Grande Sonnerie, Voutilainen Tantalor Decimal Repeater, Akrivia AK05 Tourbillon, Patek 6301, Lange Tourbillon Handwerkskunst, Breguet Classique Tourbillon Extra-Plat Squelette 5395, VC Malte Tourbillon 30130 just to name a few. Also, not all hand-finished movements are expensive - watchmakers like Felipe Pikullik does amazing hand-finishing for a mere few grands euros.

The only issue with hand-finished watches is they are produced very slowly and in very limited quantities, quite understandably, though rarity is another aspect of luxury products in my humble opinion.

Just want to emphasize I have nothing against machined watches, because my current collection is entirely made up of machined pieces and I love them. All said, I yearn to add a proper handmade watch to my collection. The Vingt-8 will be completed in 2026 and I can't wait to visit Kari and his team at his top-of-the-world workshop to collect it.
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Old 4 October 2022, 09:35 PM   #12
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The interior hand finished angle is to finishing what the tourbillon is to complications. Proof of skill that only the nerdiest of nerds GAF about lol
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Old 4 October 2022, 09:51 PM   #13
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It's not so much the inward angle on anglage per se, but for some collectors, hand finishing is a desired aspect of luxury products, and at this point in time, inward angles on anglage cannot be machined and they are all done by skilled watchmakers or technicians by hand with wood/steel/diamond. Inward angle, hence, is a sure sign of hand-finishing.

To address another point, complications and hand-finishing are not mutually exclusive and you can get the very best of both worlds in Dufour Grande Sonnerie, Voutilainen Tantalor Decimal Repeater, Akrivia AK05 Tourbillon, Patek 6301, Lange Tourbillon Handwerkskunst, Breguet Classique Tourbillon Extra-Plat Squelette 5395, VC Malte Tourbillon 30130 just to name a few. Also, not all hand-finished movements are expensive - watchmakers like Felipe Pikullik does amazing hand-finishing for a mere few grands euros.

The only issue with hand-finished watches is they are produced very slowly and in very limited quantities, quite understandably, though rarity is another aspect of luxury products in my humble opinion.

Just want to emphasize I have nothing against machined watches, because my current collection is entirely made up of machined pieces and I love them. All said, I yearn to add a proper handmade watch to my collection. The Vingt-8 will be completed in 2026 and I can't wait to visit Kari and his team at his top-of-the-world workshop to collect it.
I totally agree, there are so many possibilities as long as the watchmaker has the (rare) skill and the time available.

What I wished to emphasize is that these movements usually "don't have them all" (finishing techniques and details), often compromises are made.

As for the Vingt-8, I received mine in 2015 and can confirm the movement is outstanding. Excellent choice! Did you get his book, it's fantastic reading.
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Old 4 October 2022, 10:57 PM   #14
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As for the Vingt-8, I received mine in 2015 and can confirm the movement is outstanding. Excellent choice! Did you get his book, it's fantastic reading.
What config is your Vingt-8 please? Mind if you post a pic of your Vingt-8, if you will? I simply love to see different ideas
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Old 4 October 2022, 11:06 PM   #15
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What config is your Vingt-8 please? Mind if you post a pic of your Vingt-8, if you will? I simply love to see different ideas
Have you decided on yours design yet?
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Old 4 October 2022, 11:13 PM   #16
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Have you decided on yours design yet?
Kari has not replied to my last proposal yet. This feels like I'm still at Episode 1: The Phantom Menace
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Old 5 October 2022, 12:56 AM   #17
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Kari has not replied to my last proposal yet. This feels like I'm still at Episode 1: The Phantom Menace

I still find it interesting that I already have a late 2024/early 2025 date and I was never asked for my design. Only sticky point was the case material which was resolved quickly. But I only asked for a vanilla guilloché dial so I cannot wait to see what you have on your dial.

I saw an enamel dial and is wavering though but not sure if I can afford the extra after the case.
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Old 5 October 2022, 03:20 AM   #18
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What config is your Vingt-8 please? Mind if you post a pic of your Vingt-8, if you will? I simply love to see different ideas
With pleasure, I went for an unusual (for Kari's models) white lacquered dial (the one on the right). It was beautiful but I must admit that, with time, I got tired of it and would have preferred one of the guilloché patterns. The movement was frosted + rose gold. The case was in white gold.
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File Type: jpg Vingt-8 duo.jpg (173.8 KB, 525 views)
File Type: jpg Vingt-8_mvt.jpg (169.7 KB, 528 views)
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Old 5 October 2022, 04:59 AM   #19
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With pleasure, I went for an unusual (for Kari's models) white lacquered dial (the one on the right). It was beautiful but I must admit that, with time, I got tired of it and would have preferred one of the guilloché patterns. The movement was frosted + rose gold. The case was in white gold.
Amazing, this is a dream level watch.
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Old 5 October 2022, 08:30 AM   #20
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With pleasure, I went for an unusual (for Kari's models) white lacquered dial (the one on the right). It was beautiful but I must admit that, with time, I got tired of it and would have preferred one of the guilloché patterns. The movement was frosted + rose gold. The case was in white gold.
Awesome! Thanks for posting the pics
You were ahead of time with the frosted finish back in 2015. I think it looks so cool and of course, the entire movement is beautifully and perfectly finished. Those signature tear-shaped lugs
I wish I can fast forward to 2026 immediately
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Old 5 October 2022, 09:13 AM   #21
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Amazing, this is a dream level watch.
Thank you, yes it provides a very interesting and rare appeal to the eyes :)

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Awesome! Thanks for posting the pics
You were ahead of time with the frosted finish back in 2015. I think it looks so cool and of course, the entire movement is beautifully and perfectly finished. Those signature tear-shaped lugs
I wish I can fast forward to 2026 immediately
You're welcome :)

Indeed, regarding the frost finishing, it was the beginning of its "revival", I remember, the Greubel Forsey back then used them a lot.

There is a special feeling when looking at quite wide, rounder and very clear polishing from these edges. The different small bridges are like steps from different sizes, with inward angles and finally that huge perfectly crafted balance bridge... this is something.

The grey frosting looks nice and more modern too (it was the finish of the black one), though less shiny.

The black has a cabochon on the crown (I believe it's made from Onyx). Mine didn't get it but I think I would now.

I thought about this watch for 2 years before deciding and it is part of the journey as they say. A cool watch to wait for :)
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Old 5 October 2022, 11:16 AM   #22
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I still find it interesting that I already have a late 2024/early 2025 date and I was never asked for my design. Only sticky point was the case material which was resolved quickly. But I only asked for a vanilla guilloché dial so I cannot wait to see what you have on your dial.

I saw an enamel dial and is wavering though but not sure if I can afford the extra after the case.
It's a secret until we finalise the design
How about the Ji-Ku below? This is a 1 of 1 piece created with Japanese artist Tatsuo Kitamura (not enamel). The movement is gorgeous. CHF 365k but I don't know if it has been sold.

Voutilainen Ji-Ku_006.jpg

Voutilainen Ji-Ku_003.jpg

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I thought about this watch for 2 years before deciding and it is part of the journey as they say. A cool watch to wait for :)
Indeed it's part of the journey. I'm pretty certain you must have some other horologically important watches besides the Vingt-8. Do post them more
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Old 5 October 2022, 11:28 AM   #23
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With pleasure, I went for an unusual (for Kari's models) white lacquered dial (the one on the right). It was beautiful but I must admit that, with time, I got tired of it and would have preferred one of the guilloché patterns. The movement was frosted + rose gold. The case was in white gold.


On another note, with the escapement on these, do you happen to know the spec'd rate tolerances and max rate difference between any two positions? And also have you happened to note the actual chronometric performance, especially on the wrist?
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Old 5 October 2022, 12:07 PM   #24
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It's a secret until we finalise the design
How about the Ji-Ku below? This is a 1 of 1 piece created with Japanese artist Tatsuo Kitamura (not enamel). The movement is gorgeous. CHF 365k but I don't know if it has been sold.

Attachment 1322828

Attachment 1322829



Indeed it's part of the journey. I'm pretty certain you must have some other horologically important watches besides the Vingt-8. Do post them more
Mine is also a secret even to me since I don't know exactly what I want yet. After I saw the enamel dial, I am contemplating if I should have a blue enamel center with guilloche dial ring. All in blue, of course. But since I think I am already over my budget with the tantalum case, I am not sure if I can convince the missus to let me spend more $$$.
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Old 5 October 2022, 12:08 PM   #25
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With pleasure, I went for an unusual (for Kari's models) white lacquered dial (the one on the right). It was beautiful but I must admit that, with time, I got tired of it and would have preferred one of the guilloché patterns. The movement was frosted + rose gold. The case was in white gold.
Is the one on the left an enamel?

Beautiful pair! And did you replace it with another Kari since you mentioned you got tired of the white dial?
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Old 5 October 2022, 12:31 PM   #26
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Mine is also a secret even to me since I don't know exactly what I want yet. After I saw the enamel dial, I am contemplating if I should have a blue enamel center with guilloche dial ring. All in blue, of course. But since I think I am already over my budget with the tantalum case, I am not sure if I can convince the missus to let me spend more $$$.
How much more is the enameling? I believe the enameling will be done by external specialists.
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Old 5 October 2022, 11:40 PM   #27
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This is a 1 of 1 piece created with Japanese artist Tatsuo Kitamura (not enamel).

Indeed it's part of the journey. I'm pretty certain you must have some other horologically important watches besides the Vingt-8. Do post them more
Those rare handcrafts Voutilainen has made in the past are indeed gorgeous, I didn't know this one, it looks fantastic :)

Here are 2 that I love as well (hence the long time I take to turn around watches before choosing :p, there are so many watches that left me excited for a few days or weeks but I got tired of, that's why I'm very careful when excited, I wait a little to see if it's true on the long run).
A DB25 white gold, 6 days PR, auto (platinum and titanium rotor, as with the balance wheel) very nicely crafted dial, superb blued hands. I fell in love with the case and especially its lugs (which make it quite comfortable on the wrist despite the size). The finishing of the movement isn't the traditional one with polished edges etc... but looks very nice.

The RM35, a 40g Aluminium/Magnesium alloy model that I still love today, maybe my favorite early RM because of its "light is right spirit" :p (and the fact it's discreet in terms of color and size).
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File Type: jpg DB25 front.jpg (159.1 KB, 388 views)
File Type: jpg DB25 back.jpg (158.6 KB, 387 views)
File Type: jpg RM35.jpg (147.7 KB, 387 views)
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Old 5 October 2022, 11:48 PM   #28
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On another note, with the escapement on these, do you happen to know the spec'd rate tolerances and max rate difference between any two positions? And also have you happened to note the actual chronometric performance, especially on the wrist?
I'm sorry I never controled it with a machine and I wasn't aware of any official figures about its accuracy. However, from what I experienced, mine was pretty accurate.

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Is the one on the left an enamel?

Beautiful pair! And did you replace it with another Kari since you mentioned you got tired of the white dial?
Thank you! Not enamel, it was in fact a model made the same time as mine with a black laquered dial and "greyed" frosted movement. It looked fantastic with a very deep black.
A friend of mine made a blue guilloché dial (as I already saw on others on the net) and it really looked beautiful and more appealing. It would have been the one I would have chosen I think.
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Old 6 October 2022, 01:28 PM   #29
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I'm sorry I never controled it with a machine and I wasn't aware of any official figures about its accuracy. However, from what I experienced, mine was pretty accurate.

Thank you! Not enamel, it was in fact a model made the same time as mine with a black laquered dial and "greyed" frosted movement. It looked fantastic with a very deep black.
A friend of mine made a blue guilloché dial (as I already saw on others on the net) and it really looked beautiful and more appealing. It would have been the one I would have chosen I think.
A dark blue guilloche dial is what I have in the plan. Just cannot decide which pattern to use.
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Old 6 October 2022, 07:03 PM   #30
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A dark blue guilloche dial is what I have in the plan. Just cannot decide which pattern to use.
There are quite a few indeed. At the time I typed "Voutilainen Obervatoire" (or "Vingt-8" but it was just released back then) on google for the pictures (I have a file of 140+ pics) and had plenty of pattern samples I could choose from. You also have a video from Watchbox reviews on Youtube.
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